53 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

Here is the reality, brawling builds promote the current nascar mentality. Quick mechs with 4+ SRM launchers or large MRMs loadouts have pretty much devolved the game into lets see who can circle fastest. Its become boring and old. This combined with the fact that mechs are now more sturdy means that people can take an assassin for instance and blow through the entire opposing team and back out without getting totally torn to shreds. This is also magnified by the way the maps have been created. My thinking is that either the ghost heat needs to be all srm/mrm types combined, raise the heat 1 point per, and or increase the spread 5%. Just a thought to reduce some of the nascar we need to reduce the reward for doing it some. Those are the two weapons that give high reward and low risk. lasers don't kill fast enough to be an issue and ballistics weigh too much to boat in large numbers - unless we are talking machine guns which are still stupid over powered (crit chance needs reduced and regardless what people say I've seen it done through armor).

[K O Z A K]

srms and mrms already have terrible spread

quick play is for people to learn to ball up and run around together, it's not surprising high dps brawly stuff is good in this environment

if you're looking for gameplay different than that you can play comp or faction play

[Monkey Lover]

They can do the same thing with mpl. Issue is Russ wanted all mechs to be equal so now we have equal firepower mechs but some of them are faster than others lol

[Heavy Money]

The Assassin specifically is ridiculously durable for its speed and firepower, due to its size and hitboxes. Its not all brawly medium mechs doing this.

[K O Z A K]

Heavy Money, on 22 November 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

The Assassin specifically is ridiculously durable for its speed and firepower, due to its size and hitboxes. Its not all brawly medium mechs doing this.

shoot the legs, not the torso (where most people miss and hit the arms)

[Heavy Money]

Hazeclaw, on 22 November 2020 - 02:39 PM, said:

shoot the legs, not the torso (where most people miss and hit the arms)

I'm aware. But the difference in its upper body durability compared to other medium mechs is still significant. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if its balanced out by other factors, but it seems to have significant durability, firepower, speed, and mobility. Most of its peers only get a few of those.

(Note: I'm not necessarily calling for a nerf, just saying that issues with Assassins aren't necessarily a meta issue, they might just be an assassin issue. The described problems aren't happening with, say, Shadowcats or Ice Ferrets.)

Edited by Heavy Money, 22 November 2020 - 02:58 PM.

[JediPanther]

Mrms like the 30 and 40 spread so much an atlas can walk though it and take 4 damage. Have you tried killed a light circling you with only a mrm 30/40? Might as well just alt f4 it. With all the dhgr builds I find I just said **** it and ran ac 40 on the k2/c2 and said **** pgi's ghost heat. If I suicide oh well. Guess 300m ac 40 is bad but 50 no heat with ecm is fine.

[K O Z A K]

Heavy Money, on 22 November 2020 - 02:57 PM, said:

I'm aware. But the difference in its upper body durability compared to other medium mechs is still significant. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if its balanced out by other factors, but it seems to have significant durability, firepower, speed, and mobility. Most of its peers only get a few of those.

(Note: I'm not necessarily calling for a nerf, just saying that issues with Assassins aren't necessarily a meta issue, they might just be an assassin issue. The described problems aren't happening with, say, Shadowcats or Ice Ferrets.)

it doesn't have very good firepower

[Heavy Money]

Hazeclaw, on 22 November 2020 - 03:23 PM, said:

it doesn't have very good firepower

Tell that to my rear armor

[Volraththefallen]

Sorry to tell you, but your complaints have nothing to do with brawlers, or brawler weapons. Quick play matches are very random. Sometimes its just a bunch of people getting drunk and shooting mechs, they dont want to listen to orders they are too busy shooting friggen laser beamz, earning c-bills, and having fun. I see plenty of sniping builds in quickplay, and they dominate on larger maps ( Alpine Peaks, Frozen City ).

As for the Nascaring, people have complained about it over 5 years ago, so your frustration is nothing new.

I myself make it a point to go the other direction just to shake things up a bit. Sometimes when you go left as a team the other team doesn't expect it at all and you ROFLstomp them, or there is a spectacular fight. Its alot of fun.

All we need for the game is new maps and new spawn points, but PGI has not delivered, and that is why gameplay is the way it is, it gets stale.

Edited by Lonewolf71, 23 November 2020 - 07:53 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Brawlers get demolished by mpl or uac spam, they're hardly the be-all end-all of anything. Sure you can carry games in t3 with an Assassin but the higher up you climb, the more difficult that becomes. Hint - shoot the Assassins legs off.

[RickySpanish]

Lockheed_, on 23 November 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

I rarely see brawler builds at all.
There are so many people dropping with Riflemen, VGLs and Hellbringers these days. I feel there#s more long range combat going on then ever.

That's been my experience during prime time NA EST. Though I have dropped into EU prime time games occasionally and... Well, our beloved cousins across the pond certainly have their ways. Perhaps that's OP's experience

[Johny Rocket]

You have to look at what causes nascars and its not brawlers. It's map design philosophy and lights trying to flank and then everyone follows them like lemmings. Nascar being standard issue for so long means that as soon as people start seeing blue on the minimap moving they go with it.

This is why I very rarely play assaults, to much time trying to keep up and not enough time shooting.

Other things that play into it are epeen and hard point inflation.

Edited by Johny Rocket, 23 November 2020 - 10:15 AM.

[Vindicated]

Hey I do agree with you, I feel that nascar is caused by the majority of the pugs not having/using range. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for not holding. Lower tier games (at least what I think are lower tier games) tend to end up with lurm standoffs where the majority of the damage is done by lurms and the team realizes that and sits back to where teams do not cross open ground.

However, notice I said pugs not USING range. It's not the weapon systems that are the problem, it's that a lot of people can't use them properly (perhaps they have problems leading targets?). I very often see mechs with range like UAC5/10 MCII-Bs or worse AC2 mechs trying to fight at 200m. As a former splatcat player, unnecessarily entering SRM range is a credibility loss for me. Short range mechs need to work to close the distance, don't give it to them for free. Apply pressure when they try to close in, and make them pay by taking damage if they proceed.

[LordNothing]

a lot of the problems with nascar and range mismatch is due to the fact that you cant switch mechs after the map is known. you almost never see these kinds of problems in fp where you can change/tweak your decks before the game starts. game needs vote screen mech select (limited to same weight class/tonnage/chassis whatever doesn't screw with the mm).

Edited by LordNothing, 23 November 2020 - 08:37 PM.

[martian]

Steel Claws, on 22 November 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

...
My thinking is that either the ghost heat needs to be all srm/mrm types combined, raise the heat 1 point per, and or increase the spread 5%.
...

You can not destroy the meta, you can only change it.

[D A T A]

Steel Claws, on 22 November 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

Here is the reality, brawling builds promote the current nascar mentality. Quick mechs with 4+ SRM launchers or large MRMs loadouts have pretty much devolved the game into lets see who can circle fastest. Its become boring and old. This combined with the fact that mechs are now more sturdy means that people can take an assassin for instance and blow through the entire opposing team and back out without getting totally torn to shreds. This is also magnified by the way the maps have been created. My thinking is that either the ghost heat needs to be all srm/mrm types combined, raise the heat 1 point per, and or increase the spread 5%. Just a thought to reduce some of the nascar we need to reduce the reward for doing it some. Those are the two weapons that give high reward and low risk. lasers don't kill fast enough to be an issue and ballistics weigh too much to boat in large numbers - unless we are talking machine guns which are still stupid over powered (crit chance needs reduced and regardless what people say I've seen it done through armor).

Ranged builds ARE overnerfed, but the pugs in this game are not competent enough to realize it

Johny Rocket, on 23 November 2020 - 10:11 AM, said:

You have to look at what causes nascars and its not brawlers. It's map design philosophy and lights trying to flank and then everyone follows them like lemmings. Nascar being standard issue for so long means that as soon as people start seeing blue on the minimap moving they go with it.

This is why I very rarely play assaults, to much time trying to keep up and not enough time shooting.

Other things that play into it are epeen and hard point inflation.

Then why back in the days, on same maps,when small brawling mechs weren't so overbuffed and ranged weapons had their dignity, ther was NO NASCAR???

nascar started when big mechs got overnerfed and ranged guns got killed

[Bronn of the Blackwater]

Nascar is an issue, true. but search only one cause is oversimplify.

The tactic and the tools are a snake biting his own tail.

There is a psychology of the new player, and almos everybody has similar aproacches to the game when starts.

The new players are sitting ducks the first matches. The dont know what the team is doing, where is going, and if they stay in a position die fast, and if they follow the team, die backstabbed in the nascar or by a pesky light. If their team is doing well, they are able to score some shots and feel proud of their 200 damage.

A new player has to learn to be used to the legs and torso independance, has to learn to lock targets, made a fast interpretation of the paper doll, take a decision about the optimal distance of his weapons, remember if the obstacles in the terrain can block or not his weapons.... And all this being aware of the cover around, the friendly mechs, and the geeneral mouvement of the team...

Clearly too much for a beguinner. To not speak about the comand wheel, the voip and the jargon used in this game. (Not everybody knows the internationa abreviatures, Alpha, eco, Tango Etc, by example)


So the newbie will gravitate the most part of the time to the same adaptative paths. The most part believe that this survability is not a positioning issue, but a mech choice and buy an Atlas as soon as posible. Others will think "Every time i show my face i get shredded, the solution is don´t be seen" the most informed will go to ECM mechs, but the main part become adorators of the Lurming cult.

All this description comes in hand to argue that Nascaring is not really a beguinners tactic. Is a medium level players tactic. Strongly reinforced with the structure of the maps.

Every medium player knows where to found easy preys. In the back of the enemy team. If you are not a pro, you have any motivation to be the first in face the better and most agresive players in the other team- Specially in the moment they are fresh and full of ammo. You want to clean snipers, lurmers and slow but heavy punch carriers... And score a little, before to dare to face the hard core fo the red team.

There is no special score in a match if your team wins because you stopped their elite and damaged them not a lot but in critical locations. Maybe the guy who opened the rear torso of a Vulcan piloted by a real good player, letting him vulnerable to a hit, did more for the victory than the lurmer supernova, despite the obscene difference in damage between them. The game dont rewards WHO you damage, and WHERE you focus your damage. The game rewards blind and brute damage...

This is another reason because brawling setups become popular. If a player wants to go up in tier he has to score more than the average of his team.

Two alphas and you have highter numbers than the guy sniping with 2 ppc ten minutes...



The main problem is... Someone has to win the match, and win the match is mainly negate the good players in the red team.

When long range weaponry was a thing in this game, before the ghosth heath penalty of PPc and gausses, the pro players complained about their team hiding behind a rock and being pasive.

Now the complain is the Nascar.

But the problem is more complex.
Its called " Every one trying to take the maximum profit of their level of skill and the tools they have"

[K O Z A K]

brawling was overnerfed (because people who want to sit at 1.5k and kill everything before it can touch them complained)

long range was overnerfed (because people who want to be in everyones face complained they can't just walk through open ground to close and totally wreck everything point blank complained)

mid range was overnerfed (because well both long range and brawling "specialists" complained)

various groups were always selfishly complaining about playstyles they don't play and get killed by, and everything was nerfed to suck equally, to some degree you could say balance has been achieved

[General Solo]

Brawling benefits people with great network connections
especially against those with bad network connections
Where HSR is at its worst

A mech moves 10metres@1000 metres range, one or two pixels change on your monitor
A mech moves 10metres@10 metres range, mech can cross your screen, 1080 pixels change on your monitor 1080p monitor

More for HSR to muck up

wish pgi would fix that rather than nerf brawling

Another example from experience is.

CT a mech to red at long range with two shots from fresh
At close range can't finish RED CT with 5 shots, crosshair flashy but not much damage.

So guys with good connections can be powerful brawlers vs those without good connections me thinks due to sheet reg reasons.