53 replies to this topic

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

LordNothing, on 23 November 2020 - 06:14 PM, said:

clan weapons are only better in theory, in practice they are effectively hard mode.

I wouldn't say that, but comparing theorycrafts don't repesent the reality of the game. Sure IS mechs can't mount as much as Clan mechs, but they off-set their weapons be better and chassis quirks.

[JediPanther]

Heavy Money, on 23 November 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

Those builds look reasonable, but will they compete with the mad dog? Or is it just going to be inferior?
Also, why the Beagle Probe if you have tag?

The bap is to cancel ecm near you. You won't have to reverse circle a light ecm trying to hold tag on it. It also gives you longer sensor range and faster target info. It won't be inferior once you get a few matches with the cat and learn how best to use it to suit how you like to play. The hardest thing about it from the mdd should be the slower speed. I can't log into the game for a few days or I'd show you how my own C1 is set up. I have it very close to the links I gave you. Skill tree will be close to what I've said. Your mech's default sensor range is 800m. With the bap and range nodes it should be out to 1k.

Also know that bap/tag can cancel only one close ecm. A uav cancels them all. The only thing those won't cancel are stealth ecm mechs. You'll just have to use other vision modes and the mls. Change out the builds as you want. These are just the 'best' lrm focused builds I've found for myself. You might end up with lrm 20s and spls or some thing like mrm 20 and lrm 15.

You can get sesmic sensor in sensor tree but my experice is that by the time I've noticed it my rt is gone. Pay attention a lot more to where your team mates are and where you are along with the mech's hud's damage indication and you won't need seismic putting the 2 skills into some thing else. 10-15 rear armor is usually fine with most on front.

Ways to defend yourself in a Cat are:
1. Stay close to team mates.
2. Counter circle a fast mover and laser at its legs. A smart light will run away. A dumb one will loss the leg.
3. When an enemy is at 180m or less forget about the lrms and go lasers. IS lrm have an 180m minimal range. you'll just bounce them off an enemy at under 179m or less,build up your heat and get frustrated. To be good with the Cat in a lrm set up knowing when not to lrm is hard.
4. Use a uav as a help beaccon when the ecms are around. Team mates some times get trigger happy when their mini map suddenly shows a lot of red pings.
5. Get higher ground. Fleas,lcts,mlgs usually don't have jump jets.

[LordNothing]

justcallme C L O U D, on 23 November 2020 - 06:18 PM, said:

I wouldn't say that, but comparing theorycrafts don't repesent the reality of the game. Sure IS mechs can't mount as much as Clan mechs, but they off-set their weapons be better and chassis quirks.

i only mean to say that the apparent superiority of clan tech is only skin deep. clan might have significantly lighter ballistics and missiles, but that usually comes with more spread or burst fire. clan might have more powerful lasers, but they run hot. clan mechs are usually faster but also more fragile. the quirks and hardpoints are part of it too.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 November 2020 - 11:58 PM.

[Johny Rocket]

SirSmokes, on 23 November 2020 - 01:26 PM, said:

They are heavy as F but tube for tube better then clan LRMs. This is pretty much scariest LRM boat you can build in the game https://mech.nav-alp...7bd1327_MAD-4HP put them on two groups in chain fire and watch peoples armor melt

why do that when you can do an effective MRM140
AH<22:L1|GP|GP|`bp01|[@|Z@q01|[@|Z@r11|i^|i^s01|i^|i^tA1|GP|GPuA1|GPv:0|GPwP0D0D0

I don't own the mech so that is before skills

[The pessimistic optimist]

Brauer, on 23 November 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

Meme Baby, 5E, STK-3H, and AWS-8R say hello.

The first two carry nearly as many tubes with big time quirks and far outclass that mech. The other two carry fewer tubes but have giga quirks. The MAD isn't even the scariest IS lrm assault.

More tubes 85 way better on chain fire it never end steam of death. 85 IS tubes is insane. Anything that can carry 85 IS tubes is nuts. Tube for tube IS are so much better then clan most IS missile boats top out at 50 60 maybe 70 85 is crazy

Johny Rocket, on 24 November 2020 - 01:55 PM, said:

why do that when you can do an effective MRM140
AH<22:L1|GP|GP|`bp01|[@|Z@q01|[@|Z@r11|i^|i^s01|i^|i^tA1|GP|GPuA1|GPv:0|GPwP0D0D0

I don't own the mech so that is before skills

Because MRM are MRM and LRM are LRM and they do different things

Edited by SirSmokes, 24 November 2020 - 02:39 PM.

[Brauer]

SirSmokes, on 24 November 2020 - 02:37 PM, said:

More tubes 85 way better on chain fire it never end steam of death. 85 IS tubes is insane. Anything that can carry 85 IS tubes is nuts. Tube for tube IS are so much better then clan most IS missile boats top out at 50 60 maybe 70 85 is crazy

No. Chainfire is objectively worse. You want to fire as many tubes at once as possible. Relying on chain-firing is just allowing AMS to eat more missiles and giving your opponents more time to seek cover. The Fafnir 5E and Mean Baby both carry 80 tubes with, the case of the 5E, big time quirks, and in the case of the Meme Baby a heat quirk, armor quirks, and high mounts that makes it superior to the Mad. LRM 60 on the 3H is also ridiculous because gigaquirks. Just seeing 5 more tubes as better is looking at things in a very simplistic fashion and missing a big part of what goes into making a mech strong.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Brauer, on 24 November 2020 - 02:51 PM, said:

No. Chainfire is objectively worse. You want to fire as many tubes at once as possible. Relying on chain-firing is just allowing AMS to eat more missiles and giving your opponents more time to seek cover. The Fafnir 5E and Mean Baby both carry 80 tubes with, the case of the 5E, big time quirks, and in the case of the Meme Baby a heat quirk, armor quirks, and high mounts that makes it superior to the Mad. LRM 60 on the 3H is also ridiculous because gigaquirks. Just seeing 5 more tubes as better is looking at things in a very simplistic fashion and missing a big part of what goes into making a mech strong.

Two groups of two

[Brauer]

SirSmokes, on 24 November 2020 - 05:55 PM, said:

Two groups of two

Quirks.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Brauer, on 24 November 2020 - 06:30 PM, said:

Quirks.

85 tubes so yea irreverent

[Heavy Money]

Its a moot point. I have tried the MAD-4HP loadout and the heat is so bad you can only fire for a few seconds. Its .97/2 heat without skills. Even with, you're not getting anywhere near the ~1.3 you'll need to keep firing.

And the heat can't really be fixed either. Even if you drop LRM 10's to 5's, you don't have enough slots for double heatsinks. And if you switch to single, you'd need to run a ton, and you still run out of slots and weight. And if you drop Endo Steel to free up slots, then you're too heavy again and need an XL engine.

The only way it works is if you run all LRM 5's, at which point you're certainly gonna be behind other options in terms of pure missile boats. The MAD-4HP can get some nice returns from all those LRM 5's, but it'd need to be in some sort of mixed missile+laser build as 45lrms aren't enough on their own.

[Vanguard319]

You must be new here, here's the basic gist of things:

Clan tech is generally lighter and less bulky than it's IS counterparts, in addition, clan energy weapons have longer ranges and do more damage. Gamewise, it's pretty much what everyone else has said so far: those are the tonnages as set by the tabletop rules.

Lorewise, it's because the Clans have better materials science by virtue of not nuking everyone who knows how math works in four apocalyptic succession wars. (well two, but it's not like the house lords had the sense to call a truce after obliterating the Star League, whose throne was what they were all nuking each other for in the first place.) Sure, the clans had their own Exodus civil war, but they were on a smaller scale, and most people were so tired of war by that point that trading their freedoms for Nicky's grand little experiment of a neo Maoist police state apparently sounded like a great idea at the time. It also helps that the warriors who became the rulers of that society also made it a rule of their ritualized warfare to never attack civilian centers, and military resources would be fought over in trials of possession rather than destroyed.

Long story short, you too can achieve a technological singularity in 260 years when you're not waging total war for the overwhelming majority of it.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Heavy Money, on 24 November 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

Its a moot point. I have tried the MAD-4HP loadout and the heat is so bad you can only fire for a few seconds. Its .97/2 heat without skills. Even with, you're not getting anywhere near the ~1.3 you'll need to keep firing.

And the heat can't really be fixed either. Even if you drop LRM 10's to 5's, you don't have enough slots for double heatsinks. And if you switch to single, you'd need to run a ton, and you still run out of slots and weight. And if you drop Endo Steel to free up slots, then you're too heavy again and need an XL engine.

The only way it works is if you run all LRM 5's, at which point you're certainly gonna be behind other options in terms of pure missile boats. The MAD-4HP can get some nice returns from all those LRM 5's, but it'd need to be in some sort of mixed missile+laser build as 45lrms aren't enough on their own.

It you

[w0qj]

You CAN do a 100lrm boat on MAD-4HP !
No room for any self-defense energy weapons though...

[VonBruinwald]

w0qj, on 25 November 2020 - 08:13 AM, said:

You CAN do a 100lrm boat on MAD-4HP !
No room for any self-defense energy weapons though...

LRM100 Stalker has been around for a while:

TheB33F - MAXIMUM LRM | Mechwarrior Online - YouTube

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 25 November 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:

LRM100 Stalker has been around for a while:

TheB33F - MAXIMUM LRM | Mechwarrior Online - YouTube

Not effective too hot to slow. The LRM 85 can move at reasonable speed and maintain fire. Don't compare MEME build to one that work

Edited by SirSmokes, 25 November 2020 - 02:03 PM.

[D A T A]

Heavy Money, on 23 November 2020 - 11:27 AM, said:

Okay, help me out if i'm missing something here.
Inner Sphere LRMs weigh twice as much as Clan LRMs (base, not counting Artemis). In return, they fire an insignificant amount faster, and all the missiles arrive at the same time, making them more likely to hit the same area and slightly better against AMS, but their deadzone at short range is much worse.

Why are they this much worse? Is there some mitigating factor I'm missing? Are there IS mechs with enough quirks to make up for this difference?

I've had good success running some clan LRM builds and had wanted to try some IS missile mechs, like a classic catapult, but its just soooo much weaker in what it can run due to the tonnage difference.

i'll help you understand how it works.

IS lrms have
1) better spread, meaning that their damage is much more focused on 1 component rather then spreading all over the place
2) better damage per heat ratio, meaning that they consume your heat bar less and put out more damage
3) better DPS, they just shoot faster
4) better volley, IS lrms fly in a bubble, while clan ones "pee" (they are around 120% more immune to ams than clan ones: a clan lrm20 loses 10 missiles vs an ams, an IS lrm 20 loses no more than 4 missiles vs the same ams)
5) clan lrms weight half, but there are no clan assaults that can boat 6-8 lrm 20: the maximum is 4lrm20 and 1 lrm15 on a warhammer, while most IS assaults can do 4 LRM20 with quirks.

current game scenario IS LRM boats are V. A. S. T. L .Y. superior to clan lrm boats in every aspect and under every circumstance.

the best you can do is fafnir4 lrm 20, stalker 3h 4lrm20 and awesome 8r 4 lrm15.
all these lrm boats outperform clan ones by a VERY LARGE MARGIN

Edited by D A T A, 25 November 2020 - 03:24 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

D A T A, on 25 November 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

i'll help you understand how it works.

IS lrms have
1) better spread, meaning that their damage is much more focused on 1 component rather then spreading all over the place
2) better damage per heat ratio, meaning that they consume your heat bar less and put out more damage
3) better DPS, they just shoot faster
4) better volley, IS lrms fly in a bubble, while clan ones "pee" (they are around 120% more immune to ams than clan ones: a clan lrm20 loses 10 missiles vs an ams, an IS lrm 20 loses no more than 4 missiles vs the same ams)
5) clan lrms weight half, but there are no clan assaults that can boat 6-8 lrm 20: the maximum is 4lrm20 and 1 lrm15 on a warhammer, while most IS assaults can do 4 LRM20 with quirks.

current game scenario IS LRM boats are V. A. S. T. L .Y. superior to clan lrm boats in every aspect and under every circumstance.

the best you can do is fafnir4 lrm 20, stalker 3h 4lrm20 and awesome 8r 4 lrm15.
all these lrm boats outperform clan ones by a VERY LARGE MARGIN

Big advantage of clan LRMs is they are much easier to fit in a build and have higher number of tubes easier. Building a good IS missile boat in the lab take little bit more effort but over all IS LRM boats are better

[w0qj]

LRM is quite heavy for IS mechs, and takes some tweaking should you aim for more than 75lrm or above.
It's not quite as easy as it sounds...

IS (Inner Sphere) LRM boat take some tweaking to enable 100lrm on it !
Standard Engine or Light Engine? Reduce engine weight for more LRM (and will mech be too slow)?
Should I drop AMS for more LRM? Should I drop all energy weapons for more LRM?
Should I shave some armor off for more LRM? Where?
Do I have room to upgrade to Artemis LRM?
Any space to put in heat sinks, to help heat management?
Should I use Targeting Computer? Should I also use Beagle Active Probe (BAP)?
How much LRM ammo is "enough"?

Trust me, as a newcomer to MWO with no emotional baggage of what is a "Meta" build,
I've tried all sorts of LRM Assaults. (Flame me!)

LRM Fafnir
LRM Annihilator Mean Baby (hey, it's got missile quirks!)
LRM MAD-4HP

And yes, IS LRM boats are much better than its Clan counterpart, as above posters have attested to.

But Clan LRM boats in general is faster, and many are quick enough to do its own target spotting.
I've also tried all lots of Clan LRM Assaults (since many are OmniMechs).
LRM Dire Wolf
LRM Executioner
LRM Blood Asp
LRM Warhawk

When QP (Quick Play) starts to count total team/player tonnage again, I'll completely stop using LRM Assaults,
so as to avoid affecting others.

SirSmokes, on 25 November 2020 - 03:35 PM, said:

Big advantage of clan LRMs is they are much easier to fit in a build and have higher number of tubes easier.
Building a good IS missile boat in the lab take little bit more effort but over all IS LRM boats are better

Edited by w0qj, 26 November 2020 - 06:19 PM.

[Kroete]

w0qj, on 26 November 2020 - 12:25 AM, said:

And yes, IS LRM boats are much better than its Clan counterpart, as above posters have attested to.

But Clan LRM boats in general is faster, and many are quick enough to do its own target spotting.
(I've also tried lots of Clan LRM Assaults).

Take a Catapult and you will get both.

I have (had until the merge, then i played not more) a lot of fun with my (very) old C4, 4x10 lrms, bap, jumpjet, heatsinks, armor and 75kph. Its better then the svn with 4x15clrm, only drawback is missing lasers. Because quirks and skilltree you can use it like the "stalinorgel" (katjuscha) if there is no significant ams.

If you want to use clantech, try the acw with 2x20 or 3x15 tubes, a tag, ecm, jumpjets, light cap and 90kph.

Edited by Kroete, 26 November 2020 - 03:41 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Kroete, on 26 November 2020 - 03:38 AM, said:

Take a Catapult and you will get both.

I have (had until the merge, then i played not more) a lot of fun with my (very) old C4, 4x10 lrms, bap, jumpjet, heatsinks, armor and 75kph. Its better then the svn with 4x15clrm, only drawback is missing lasers. Because quirks and skilltree you can use it like the &quot;stalinorgel&quot; (katjuscha) if there is no significant ams.

If you want to use clantech, try the acw with 2x20 or 3x15 tubes, a tag, ecm, jumpjets, light cap and 90kph.

For a fast clan mech with JJs, ATMs are far better than LRMs. Clan LRMs are for big slow mech that can boat a shitload of them. Clan LRMs are bad, but they compensate by bringing a ridiculous amount of tubes, and blot out the sun with their endless missile stream.