211 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

dario03, on 10 February 2021 - 05:25 PM, said:

Self reflect so you can see that you are very guilty of this in lrm threads.

Follow your own advice.

I know your are but what am I? Anyways I am more that happy to admit when someone proves me wrong. Once more dunning kruger effect. Make a completing augment that ruins me and I get stronger. You guys are immature

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 05:34 PM.

[dario03]

SirSmokes, on 10 February 2021 - 05:28 PM, said:

I know your are but what am I? Anyways I am more that happy to admit when someone proves me wrong. Once more dunning kruger effect. Make a completing augment that ruins me and I get stronger. You guys are immature

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[The pessimistic optimist]

dario03, on 10 February 2021 - 05:45 PM, said:

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

OK sure it me

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 05:48 PM.

[FupDup]

People who live in stone houses should not throw glass...wait what are we talking about again.

Let's get back to missiles.

[The pessimistic optimist]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 05:48 PM, said:

People who live in stone houses should not throw glass...wait what are we talking about again.

Let's get back to missiles.

don't know man I try my best to be my best self. I have lived a Fed up life and I try to learn and improve but I can't take people taking me for a fool. You have no clue how I was treated less then most of my life, So expect hell if you do but I try to be honest

Edited by SirSmokes, 10 February 2021 - 06:06 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

Cut clan lrm ammo in half since they have half the weight IS do. Problem solved. Since my cptl-c1 can oh so easily spam lrm 60 all day. It wishes it could.

player hit by IS lrm 40: was I hit by lrm? Oh well.
player hit by C-LRM 40: HOLY SHEET!
player hit by C-LRM 60+...MUST NERF ALL LRMS POST!

[dario03]

ThreeStooges, on 10 February 2021 - 06:49 PM, said:

Cut clan lrm ammo in half since they have half the weight IS do. Problem solved. Since my cptl-c1 can oh so easily spam lrm 60 all day. It wishes it could.

player hit by IS lrm 40: was I hit by lrm? Oh well.
player hit by C-LRM 40: HOLY SHEET!
player hit by C-LRM 60+...MUST NERF ALL LRMS POST!

islrm40 is better than clrm40, especially if ams is involved.

[FupDup]

dario03, on 10 February 2021 - 06:54 PM, said:

islrm40 is better than clrm40, especially if ams is involved.

Kinda sorta...

When we look at the launchers by themselves, yes generally the simultaneous clump is better. However, IMO I prefer Clan Lurms because of a few key reasons:

1. The reduced tonnage lets you either mount more tubes (make up for the stream-fire weakness) and/or improve other aspects of your mech like backup weapons or engine size (making them more well-rounded, less specialized).

2. Being able to do at least some damage within 180 meters is often useful (not at point-blank but if they're 100+ away you can still hurt them).

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2021 - 07:03 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 02:37 PM, said:

People keep looking at this from only one perspective (nerfs).

The part that people keep missing is that an actual re-design of MWO's lock-on weapons would also make them better in some ways. A little harder to use, yes, but stronger because of having more control over where your shots land and probably toned down counters (the counters are so prevalent primarily because of how they're designed right now). Like, for example, if Streaks worked like MW4 streaks (they homed on the hitbox you aimed them at) then I'd actually use them (especially on Clan mechs who don't have Murms).

There's give and take, not just take. Maybe the feasts won't be as intense as they are now, but on the flipside the famines shouldn't be as intense either. The weapons should just work most of the time without being either dead weight or overwhelming.

The MW4 styled Streaks like homing MRMs is kind of an okay idea. But my issue here is how it really just caters to the "muh-skills" crowd, and their inability to take their own advice to git-gud.

The ease of use is a massive factor of the homing weapons, they are the way how a newbie can get hooked into the game. If it needed the same degree of aiming like a laser, why not get a laser or a PPC? It's basically a guaranteed hit too at the ranges that SSRMs operate.

I think it's more of a paradigm issue, that you can't really make a satisfying balance to those who actively look for holes in it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2021 - 07:06 PM.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 07:03 PM, said:

The MW4 styled Streaks like homing MRMs is kind of an okay idea. But my issue here is how it really just caters to the "muh-skills" crowd, and their inability to take their own advice to git-gud.

It doesn't matter how gud I git, there's no technique to make my lock-on missiles home where I want them to go instead of having a mind of their own.

They'd also be made easier in some ways like being able to hit targets without needing a red dorito (see my post on page 8) and there being fewer AMS mechs in the field.

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 07:03 PM, said:

The ease of use is a massive factor of the homing weapons, they are the way how a newbie can get hooked into the game. If it needed the same degree of aiming like a laser, why not get a laser or a PPC? It's basically a guaranteed hit too at the ranges that SSRMs operate.

For starters, it's not like we're making them like Gauss or something. They'd be a little harder than they are now, but they'd hardly be some elite master race weapon. Gauss and really slow projectiles (i.e. AC/20) are really the only truly "hard" weapons in the game. Lasers are pretty easy other than the really long duration Clan ones like HLL.

The real difficulty comes from other stuff like twisting and positioning.

You'd still use them because they'd still having homing (but now they'd home at specific hitboxes) and generally having a damage/heat ratio in-between energy and ballistics. SRMs and MRMs don't lock-on but people still use those.

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 07:03 PM, said:

I think it's more of a paradigm issue, that you can't really make a satisfying balance to those who constantly look for holes in it.

I admit I am a bit of a professional hole-poker...

But for Lurms in particular they've been yo-yo'd up and down several times throughout the game's history so I think there's some actually objective evidence to suggest that something is making them inherently hard to balance.

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2021 - 07:13 PM.

[Heavy Money]

ThreeStooges, on 10 February 2021 - 06:49 PM, said:

Cut clan lrm ammo in half since they have half the weight IS do. Problem solved. Since my cptl-c1 can oh so easily spam lrm 60 all day. It wishes it could.

player hit by IS lrm 40: was I hit by lrm? Oh well.
player hit by C-LRM 40: HOLY SHEET!
player hit by C-LRM 60+...MUST NERF ALL LRMS POST!

Why nerf clan lrms? They aren't OP. Instead, make IS lrms lighter.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 07:11 PM, said:

It doesn't matter how gud I git, there's no technique to make my lock-on missiles home where I want them to go instead of having a mind of their own.

I don't know what to tell you. Git-Gud, or use a different weapon. That's like complaining that a shotgun slug couldn't hit a target effectively a 600m, square peg on a round hole -- that's not what the weapon is meant to do.

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 07:11 PM, said:

They'd also be made easier in some ways like being able to hit targets without needing a red dorito (see my post on page 8) and there being fewer AMS mechs in the field.

Sure? But you know, it's just an indirect nerf against what little Information Warfare the game already has.

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 07:11 PM, said:

For starters, it's not like we're making them like Gauss or something. They'd be a little harder than they are now, but they'd hardly be some elite master race weapon. Gauss and really slow projectiles (i.e. AC/20) are really the only truly "hard" weapons in the game. Lasers are pretty easy other than the really long duration Clan ones like HLL.

To which I ask, what's the point? Yeah they aren't high-skill weapons still, but they are still low skill weapon that the min-maxer person still ought not to use. If it was like MW4, where it's pinpoint-homing stream (else if its volley-fired then it's going to be basically like a thunderbolt), then what you got is simply a slower more spreadable volley.

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 07:11 PM, said:

You'd still use them because they'd still having homing (but now they'd home at specific hitboxes) and generally having a damage/heat ratio in-between energy and ballistics. SRMs and MRMs don't lock-on but people still use those.

Really? It's going to try the poke-and-fade style, without actually why the ACs, Lasers, and PPCs are actually good at it -- as in dumping most of damage near instantly? Heat-efficient my butt, the 3x PPC ain't heat efficient, but it works extremely well.

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 07:11 PM, said:

I admit I am a bit of a professional hole-poker...

But for Lurms in particular they've been yo-yo'd up and down several times throughout the game's history so I think there's some actually objective evidence to suggest that something is making them inherently hard to balance.

No, I what mean it's like Lawyers who constantly look for technical loopholes in the law, instead of just respecting the general spirit of it.

LRMs are actually in good place right now. So when you point out that the homing mechanic is the problem I don't believe you. It's not the homing mechanic, it's the specific niches of specific weapons, and the attitude of people towards homing weapons.

The LRMs work for its intended use and weight, the Dual-Arc just works well, especially for people who get their own locks. The ATMs are stupidly high damage -- just reduce that, maybe even remove the minimum-range, The SSRMs fire-and-forget and bone-tracking, why not just remove the bone-tracking and make SSRMs fire in volleys?

Alternatively, just make EVERYTHING auto-aim, it'll lower the skill, but it'll be balanced.

Heavy Money, on 10 February 2021 - 07:18 PM, said:

Why nerf clan lrms? They aren't OP. Instead, make IS lrms lighter.

Unless PGI is willing to break lore, they can't do that.

They can't even reduce the LB20X to 10-slot so it can be put on King-Crab arms, or use LFE.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2021 - 08:34 PM.

[Heavy Money]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2021 - 08:30 PM, said:

Unless PGI is willing to break lore, they can't do that.

They can't even reduce the LB20X to 10-slot so it can be put on King-Crab arms, or use LFE.

Yeah, lore may get in the way. They could find some other way to improve IS lrms if they wanted though.

Personally, I'd like to see LRMs of all sorts be a bit more effective when used at mid ranges with direct fire. Make them more viable to use as secondary weapons, or on mediums, especially for inner sphere. Better velocity/tracking/spread, whatever. Maybe even crit or dmg. They could then get slight nerfs in these areas to direct fire as well if that would appease people, I don't really care about that.

Give me a reason to run lasers+lrms rather than just boat more lasers (or ACs, or whatever.) Right now you can do mixed loadouts (if you're clan) and they aren't terrible, but there's a big diminishing return on the effort and dmg delay of getting locks if you aren't running a lot of LRMs.

Edited by Heavy Money, 10 February 2021 - 08:41 PM.

[Kroete]

Want more skill?
Make the flightpass adjustable ((bending) again).
Manipulating the flightpass would involve skill without making them like other weapons.

Better ams/missile balance?
A single ams kills 20% of the missiles, for every added ams its 10% more. but cant go over 80%.
Seems balanced if you look at the tonnage and tears that are involve
(without tears its around 10% for a single ams and 5 % for every added)

More direct use?
Its the locktime for direct use (Artemis should have its locktime reduction back)
and the flightpath, you often hit the terrain, made the flightpath changeable or use the old system,
they are lrms not atms.
Best would be changeable flightpath with bending ...

Edited by Kroete, 11 February 2021 - 12:23 AM.

[YueFei]

FupDup, on 10 February 2021 - 04:28 PM, said:

I don't think we should do one first. It would be best to do both simultaneously because they're co-dependent and it could lead to another Lurmaggedon episode to do only the buff aspect first (and thus subsequent nerfs).


Side note: I'm not just talking about Lurms. I'm grouping Streaks and ATMs in here. They share similar base mechanics and similar problems rooting from those mechanics.


Back on topic: A part of the puzzle is the fact that every mech in the game except for the CDA-X5 can equip AMS. I don't think I'd want to nerf AMS itself because then people would feel less incentive to give up heatsinks, engine, etc. to mount it.

This would probably piss off a ton of people, but I think that AMS should for the most part be treated like ECM, JJs, or MASC in that it should usually only be assigned to mechs that equip it in their stock form. I think to not be completely cruel we could make a few exceptions to this rule, perhaps for the variants that PGI has given dual AMS to or maybe allowing one variant per chassis to have AMS (unless multiple variants have it stock).

There's also the lock-on system itself here being dependent on red doritos. Either go the MW4 Streak path and just let the missiles effectively have instant-lock (thus just go wherever you were aiming, no need to wait for lock), or allow locks without the need to red dorito (maybe give the latter to ATMs/Lurms and let MWO Streaks be like MW4). You should still be able to lock on a target without needing the red dorito, but it would take longer than usual.

I just want my MW4 Streaks above all else so I can use Clan Streaks as Poor Man's MRMs (with tracking).

Instead of re-jiggering mechs to take away the ability to mount AMS on most chassis, I feel another approach to reduce the potential for "famine" would be to change AMS mechanics. Right now if you have enough mechs all mounting AMS and sharing coverage as a team, it can completely neuter missiles.

Instead, we could make the AMS DPS against missiles a dynamic value, based on the missile's distance and angle. If the missiles are headed directly toward you, your AMS will be maximally effective, dishing out full DPS and shooting down more missiles. If the missiles are headed toward your buddy instead, your AMS can still assist him, but as the missiles arc around and past you, it'll be a tougher deflection shot for your AMS, so this can be modelled simply by having your AMS deal less DPS against missiles not facing directly at you. At 90 degrees, it would be significantly less DPS.

With this kind of change, you can even buff AMS in terms of the coverage it would provide for you personally against missiles that are aimed directly at you, while at the same time you can still nerf (if necessary) the effectiveness of AMS firing at missiles aimed at other people. That way, AMS wouldn't end up having a crazy multiplicative effect if several mechs on the same team have AMS.

Edited by YueFei, 11 February 2021 - 12:15 AM.

[Curccu]

ThreeStooges, on 10 February 2021 - 06:49 PM, said:

Cut clan lrm ammo in half since they have half the weight IS do. Problem solved. Since my cptl-c1 can oh so easily spam lrm 60 all day. It wishes it could.

player hit by IS lrm 40: was I hit by lrm? Oh well.
player hit by C-LRM 40: HOLY SHEET!
player hit by C-LRM 60+...MUST NERF ALL LRMS POST!

IS-LRM is way better than C-LRM, streamfire is horrible and If I remember correctly C-LRM has more spread also.

[The6thMessenger]

Kroete, on 11 February 2021 - 12:13 AM, said:

Want more skill?
Make the flightpass adjustable ((bending) again).
Manipulating the flightpass would involve skill without making them like other weapons.

Better ams/missile balance?
A single ams kills 20% of the missiles, for every added ams its 10% more. but cant go over 80%.
Seems balanced if you look at the tonnage and tears that are involve
(without tears its around 10% for a single ams and 5 % for every added)

More direct use?
Its the locktime for direct use (Artemis should have its locktime reduction back)
and the flightpath, you often hit the terrain, made the flightpath changeable or use the old system,
they are lrms not atms.
Best would be changeable flightpath with bending ...

You're not going to convince the muh-skeels club when it's still auto-aim, that is their gripe with it. Making it LRM-Bendy just makes it easier to retain lock, which is just against what they want, likewise LRMs aren't the only homing missiles. Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate for what they want, I'm simply being realistic.

I don't think there's any point in making missiles require more skill the way they want it. The more you make it aim-intensive, the more it encroaches on the input of other weapons that might as well go with bonafide direct-fire weapons that are actually easier to use.

I'd rather just add Missile Damage Reduction -- as in it hits missiles but missiles ain't destroyed but just deal less damage, it should be technically the same once adjusted, but it puts a hard cap on minimal damage and maximal damage, instead of a feast-famine AMS effect.

The LOS Lock-Time reduction is already baked in regardless of Artemis. If you just make it more in Artemis, then the non-artemised launchers won't be that of a choice. If you want, I can advocate for moar LOS Lock-Time reduction

[The pessimistic optimist]

You are still taking about them with no clue how to use them well. I can do well in them on any map till you guys know to play them, right I am not taking this seriously. You think they are so easy to use but don't know how to play them. Play them more maybe learn the weapons system. Quick question what do you do when enemy is close and might move in on you?

Edited by SirSmokes, 11 February 2021 - 01:01 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

SirSmokes, on 11 February 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

You are still taking about them with no clue how to use them well. I can do well in them on any map till you guys know to play them, right I am not taking this seriously. You think they are so easy to use but don't know how to play them. Play them more maybe learn the weapons system

Me?

[The pessimistic optimist]

The6thMessenger, on 11 February 2021 - 01:00 AM, said:

Me?

Some that was general statement so no

Edited by SirSmokes, 11 February 2021 - 01:05 AM.