95 replies to this topic

[soulfire]

I've been here from the start. I've seen particular devs make certain things stronger than they should be (lights with machineguns) and nerf other things. I belonged to a group of testers and I got burned out and left the game. Certain things seem to stay the same like lrms everyone wants to nerf them and they have been nerfed in one way or another many times. One of the problems with the game was it was created to make money first. Everything was based on that. Mechs could be destroyed fairly fast, games were to last a short time. The thought is if you want to spend the cash you can build the best mechs.With this in mind the game has changed to try to make everyone happy but has moved away from reality of big stompy robots. Why would anyone in the battletech universe build an atlas with it's huge costs when a light with a couple of small lasers and a **** load of machineguns can take it down, That's like allowing a jeep with a machinegun being able to take out a tank. This is one of the unrealities of the game.
The other is the allowed customization that take away various mechs specializations. Some mechs where designed to be support missile boats but this game needs to be able to sell three different mechs. So one was enabled to carry two ultra ac 10's there was a time you could put two ac20's on it. Something that many assaults cant do. I, like many have returned of late because we have heard new owners new dev but the same problems remain so far. Devs are concentrating on lrms still instead of more meaningful changes. Lights are still unreal in their damage output to large and assaults.The general drops are not balanced anymore. We dropped in one game where we had one assault and they had 5 .There is talk of them nerfing armor which again is to shorten the game and making more money. I don't know if the game as it is is salvageable.for anything but it just being a giant solaris game with meta builds with the names of laser vomit and the rest. Something you would see in a solaris match total customization. Not something you would see in an house armys. You might see some customization in a merc outfit but not like we have now no one could afford it.It would be based more on what they could find. or salvage. I wish they had taken a look at battletech online for the general game. It never made it out of its long beta because of EA shut it down but it was very promising.
I think a few things would help the game.MAke things a bit more realistic. It should take an hour or more for a small mech to cut through an assaults rear armor..Heat sinks because they are physically smaller in small mechs should not have the capacity to absorb the heat or cool it at the same amount as on larger mechs. You should create standard variants for mechs.Don't use those archaic battle tech builds they made no sense Items can be changed such as the size of laser or ac but more component change not I'll take out this ppc and put in 5 small lasers.more like I'll take out the ppc and put in one med laser Allow heavy customization of mechs only in solaris like we have now. Make the armor matter. Mech games are supposed to be slug fests, real battles.Dependant on pilot skill.If two of the same kind of bushwackers s2 fight the outcome should be because the best most practiced pilot won not because pilot A went online and copied a meta build. Mechs existed because they were hard to kill even among each other. Why would countries build and use heavy or assault if lights with a couple lasers and machineguns could bring them down. On the other hand there wouldn't be that many assaults on the battlefield. They were expensive to build and maintain and only high level, ranked people ran them. That can be adjusted in your drop software easy fix right now its screwed up. Please fix the atlases center hit box. The central area at the hips should just be divided into two, connected to each leg not be part of the center core.At the moment it a easy no skill target to kill an atlas. Physical damage should be in the game. I know from watching other games it is a hard thing to do correctly. It use to be that a heavier mech could knock down a light. And the lights complained. Now we have lights walking right up to assaults and heavies under where the pilots can see and just spamming attacks. In reality the assaults should be able to punt the light across the battlefield if the lights are so stupid as to come so close, I don't expect much to happen.I'll play for a short time then move on. Let the devs worry over if lrms do .25 damage a piece or .20. Another one of those worrying about a broken branch on one tree while the forest is burning down.

[ScrapIron Prime]

soulfire, on 16 February 2021 - 03:11 PM, said:

Why would anyone in the battletech universe build an atlas with it's huge costs when a light with a couple of small lasers and a **** load of machineguns can take it down

But that's the lore from the boardgame. I've taken out a Warhammer with a solo Stinger before in a tournament. It can be done in tabletop, so it can be done in the game that is based (loosely) on the tabletop.

By lore, assault mechs never went anyplace alone, for that reason. But this is 12 players versus 12 players, not the New Avalon Institute of Science. Stuff happens, and the great lost art of Teamwork is the cure.

Don't want to get your Toolkit shot off by a Flea? Then grab a battle buddy and maneuver and fight together. Flea jumps you, put your back to your buddy and let HIM scrape the Flea off you. That's how we did it in tabletop, that's how they did it in Lore, that's how teams work here, no game changes required.

Though, yeah, melee combat would be nice. Its the one big thing that's missing, but short of a new game engine and redesigning the whole control system, I'm not sure how it would work.

[Blood Rose]

soulfire, on 16 February 2021 - 03:11 PM, said:

[a lot of stuff]

You make some good points, but I would like to propose some points to you:

1> What is the role of light mechs then? Currently the maps are too small for proper recon activities and there are no dynamic tactical objectives to work around. There is no need for a small, fast moving, mech that performs recon or secures secondary objectives. The nearest we have is one game mode where mechs go and cap points, but that doesnt come up often. Most games come down to shootbang, and so a Mech needs to be able to fight, no matter its weight class.

2> You mention heatsinks in smaller mechs working less efficiently. I question, this it has no place in the lore and they are the exact same heatsinks as you plug into an assault.

3> You say it should take an hour for a light mech to cut through an assaults rear armour. Surely this is a jest, if a player puts little armour on their rear and the light is equipped for can opening then it should cut though the rear plate in short order. This is why it is best to stay close to teammates.

4> Have you played MW 4? It has a hardpoint system I believe should be ported over, hardpoints have a set size they can fit and weapons placed in them may not have a total size larger than the hard point.

5> In the boardgame a jeep with a machinegun (actually a 40-50mm machinecannon in BT terms) can potentially kill a Tank. Or an Atlas for that matter. Hell, Infantry with rifles can kill a mech if given enough time. You learn to bring smaller, lighter units to chase these off.

6> I agree with you on the customisation point. Personally I think there should be a greater incentive to take mechs stock, or close to stock.

[PocketYoda]

Blood Rose, on 16 February 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

You make some good points, but I would like to propose some points to you:

1> What is the role of light mechs then? Currently the maps are too small for proper recon activities and there are no dynamic tactical objectives to work around. There is no need for a small, fast moving, mech that performs recon or secures secondary objectives. The nearest we have is one game mode where mechs go and cap points, but that doesnt come up often. Most games come down to shootbang, and so a Mech needs to be able to fight, no matter its weight class.

Personally light mechs were designed mostly as scouts and fighting other light mechs, Narcs and tags come to mind and maybe even a targeting computer to help larger mechs target hard locks, i've seen them take out a medium or two.. I've never seen a light mech take out a Assault in the tabletop.. but i guess its possible with a lot of terrain and luck.

[LordNothing]

Samial, on 16 February 2021 - 07:37 PM, said:

Personally light mechs were designed mostly as scouts and fighting other light mechs, Narcs and tags come to mind and maybe even a targeting computer to help larger mechs target hard locks, i've seen them take out a medium or two.. I've never seen a light mech take out a Assault in the tabletop.. but i guess its possible with a lot of terrain and luck.

i think making the weight class dominance circular was one of the more brilliant things pgi has done. in almost every previous mechwarrior game, and even in mw5, the big mechs dominate. by doing that one thing you create places for lights and mediums as well, so its not all heavies and assaults. living legends got around the problem by starting everyone in lights and making you work your way up to the fat mechs throughout the match.

[Blood Rose]

Samial, on 16 February 2021 - 07:37 PM, said:

Personally light mechs were designed mostly as scouts and fighting other light mechs, Narcs and tags come to mind and maybe even a targeting computer to help larger mechs target hard locks, i've seen them take out a medium or two.. I've never seen a light mech take out a Assault in the tabletop.. but i guess its possible with a lot of terrain and luck.

Oh they should do a lot more scouting, I agree. Sadly the current maps and meta do not really let that happen.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Blood Rose, on 17 February 2021 - 12:01 PM, said:

Oh they should do a lot more scouting, I agree. Sadly the current maps and meta do not really let that happen.

Right, but if they make even larger maps, imagine all the low tier assault mechs that will literally be five kilometers away from the fight. large maps benefit mobility, but punish a lack thereof. their upgrade from the original forest colony etc was pushing it...

[Alan Hicks]

Simply put: some people at the game and PGI

[Blood Rose]

ScrapIron Prime, on 17 February 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

Right, but if they make even larger maps, imagine all the low tier assault mechs that will literally be five kilometers away from the fight. large maps benefit mobility, but punish a lack thereof. their upgrade from the original forest colony etc was pushing it...

Longer games, the option for tactical and strategic objectives, escort missions, etc. The opportunity to have realistic terrain, to include artillery as an option, to have larger teams or to have respawns/a drop deck the player pre-selects.
A lot could be gained from having big maps.

[Dozer6]

please dial 1-800-WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

[ScrapIron Prime]

Blood Rose, on 17 February 2021 - 07:00 PM, said:

Longer games, the option for tactical and strategic objectives, escort missions, etc. The opportunity to have realistic terrain, to include artillery as an option, to have larger teams or to have respawns/a drop deck the player pre-selects.
A lot could be gained from having big maps.

Sure, no argument there. But when I commented that upgrading to the current map sizes was pushing it, I didn’t mean form a game design aspect. It’s CryEngine. Everything in the match is rendered at all times, regardless of the distance or whether or not it’s in line of sight. Every tree and rock face takes calc time in your GPU regardless of where it is in relation to the player and their POV.

So it goes back to choice of rendering engine again. I’m sure there’s a way around it, but it would require some heavy coding and modifying the game engine itself. Not sure PGI has the right staff for that job, nor would it make sense to hire a few folks for it if the population of the game continues its slow tapering off...

[Blood Rose]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 February 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Sure, no argument there. But when I commented that upgrading to the current map sizes was pushing it, I didn’t mean form a game design aspect. It’s CryEngine. Everything in the match is rendered at all times, regardless of the distance or whether or not it’s in line of sight. Every tree and rock face takes calc time in your GPU regardless of where it is in relation to the player and their POV.

So it goes back to choice of rendering engine again. I’m sure there’s a way around it, but it would require some heavy coding and modifying the game engine itself. Not sure PGI has the right staff for that job, nor would it make sense to hire a few folks for it if the population of the game continues its slow tapering off...

Honestly, they need a better engine. Gaijin can support multiple ammo types for multiple guns, destructible terrain, ammo selectors, etc. And AI units that work effectively (Still remember my Panzer IV taking fire from an AI 76mm gun on the Kursk map) There is no reason why MWO cannot have these, save the 'minimal viability' that the heads seem obsessed with.

[YueFei]

Blood Rose, on 18 February 2021 - 05:57 PM, said:

Honestly, they need a better engine. Gaijin can support multiple ammo types for multiple guns, destructible terrain, ammo selectors, etc. And AI units that work effectively (Still remember my Panzer IV taking fire from an AI 76mm gun on the Kursk map) There is no reason why MWO cannot have these, save the 'minimal viability' that the heads seem obsessed with.

I feel that MWO should've been properly split into two major components, with separate economies:

• Arena shooter. What we already have now in Quickplay.
  
• A true MMO portion. This would have its own separate economy, repair&re-arm would be a factor, logistics and travel time would matter. It would not be like FW where you can get your entire drop deck blown to smithereens and then immediately drop into another FW match 5 minutes later with the same mechs. This mode would have its own separate C-bill purse. In other words, you would not be able to spend money earned from the Arena shooter to purchase mechs/equipment/ammo in the MMO portion.

You can spend time playing (1), where it's just for fun, there's no permanent consequences, whilst waiting for elements in the MMO portion to play out (such as time to travel from one star system to the next).

Then, with the MMO portion, you could feature truly large maps, objectives, logistics, supply lines, etc. Artillery wouldn't just be a magical off-map asset that teleports artillery shells into the battlefield (as it does in the Arena shooter), instead the artillery would be a tangible asset that could be targeted and attacked, and the shell's flight time would depend on its distance and angle to your desired target area. Same with airstrikes... these would sortie from air fields, or you could call them up ahead of time and have them orbiting, ready to go, but consuming fuel to do so, fuel which is a finite resource and costs money. You could get a proper campaign going, even on a single planet.

The stakes would be higher in such a game mode, with permanent consequences. Get blown out of your mech, and if you lose the battle, you could lose that mech as it gets salvaged by the enemy. If that's too hardcore, you could feature different "shards" of the universe, with varying degrees of "softness" or "hardness" to suit different player's tastes, where one shard would always allow you to salvage your mech, even if you lose the battle. Then it'd still take time to repair that mech, it's not going to instantly get resurrected to battle again. So then you'd just hop over to play the Arena shooter portion instead, so there's still something for you to do while you're waiting.

[VonBruinwald]

Blood Rose, on 18 February 2021 - 05:57 PM, said:

Gaijin can support multiple ammo types for multiple guns, destructible terrain, ammo selectors, etc. And AI units that work effectively

Gaijin also has an insane level of grind. If they made MWO everybody would start in lights and spend 6 months grinding for mediums, another year for heavies then two more for assaults unless they paid for premium time.

As for the skill tree. Prepare to earn XP in the double digits.

[Blood Rose]

VonBruinwald, on 18 February 2021 - 06:23 PM, said:

Gaijin also has an insane level of grind. If they made MWO everybody would start in lights and spend 6 months grinding for mediums, another year for heavies then two more for assaults unless they paid for premium time.

As for the skill tree. Prepare to earn XP in the double digits.

Honestly, starting newbs in the 55 tonner series might not be a bad thing...
But as it was I was merely pointing out that another company can manage to make a game that has larger, more realistic maps, maps that give you the feel of the vehicle you are in, have multiple unit types and AI's in the same battle and have different ammunition for multiple guns and have said ammunition selectable whilst also having destructible terrain.
If they can do it then PGI can also do it.

[Wildstreak]

LordNothing, on 16 February 2021 - 09:40 PM, said:

i think making the weight class dominance circular was one of the more brilliant things pgi has done. in almost every previous mechwarrior game, and even in mw5, the big mechs dominate. by doing that one thing you create places for lights and mediums as well, so its not all heavies and assaults. living legends got around the problem by starting everyone in lights and making you work your way up to the fat mechs throughout the match.

Used to be true but now QP is less about Lights with rare matches and more about the other 3 classes.

[Blood Rose]

Wildstreak, on 18 February 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

Used to be true but now QP is less about Lights with rare matches and more about the other 3 classes.

Lights can still be nasty in the right circumstances. Unfortunately they come up once in a blue moon.

[LordNothing]

Wildstreak, on 18 February 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

Used to be true but now QP is less about Lights with rare matches and more about the other 3 classes.

pgi loves to undo their more clever ideas. when you cater to the lowest common denominator, you tend to get it.

[Fu Sun]

You get for what you pay. I think as long as you have some constructive criticism, direct your feedback to the coders. Nothing may happen, but at least you were heard. Criticizing an entire game is sort of futile, though.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 February 2021 - 10:07 AM, said:

Sure, no argument there. But when I commented that upgrading to the current map sizes was pushing it, I didn’t mean form a game design aspect. It’s CryEngine. Everything in the match is rendered at all times, regardless of the distance or whether or not it’s in line of sight. Every tree and rock face takes calc time in your GPU regardless of where it is in relation to the player and their POV.

So it goes back to choice of rendering engine again. I’m sure there’s a way around it, but it would require some heavy coding and modifying the game engine itself. Not sure PGI has the right staff for that job, nor would it make sense to hire a few folks for it if the population of the game continues its slow tapering off...

The Staff crew was programmed and coded the Gameengine all gone 2014/15 (One of the "Fathers" of the MWO Cry 3 Engne Karl Berg goes to Amazon for Example)and PGI not found new Guys for it of the Jobmarket long years ,and the Jobmarket was empty for PGI...so only Talented Guys for the UE4 and MW5 founded and hired.
.The Old MWO Engine now to most parts like a Sealed Pharaos Grave and no Stone of Rosette to encrypting it.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 19 February 2021 - 03:21 AM.