104 replies to this topic

[Gagis]

Wolfos31, on 17 February 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

The MM already averages PSR across the players in a group... right? I'd hope so!

If a tier 5 & tier 3 player form a 2 man group I'd hope that group is considered "tier 4" and it tries to find matches appropriately.

No one seems to know if that happens or not.

[Dogstar]

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

There's really no place for casual solos here anymore. It's time for them to join a group or move on to another game.

It seems to me that there's plenty of room in this game for small groups and solo players but there's definitely a problem with the nasty, entitled, tier 1 types, who think that being good at a video game means that their opinion is better than everyone else's

Attitudes like that are the real problem.

[GARION26]

SirSmokes, on 17 February 2021 - 09:06 AM, said:

What this man said. They say they want 12v12 but they really don't. Every time we say make FP the group cue there are billion excuses as to why not

99% of the time I am playing in a group I am playing with my ten year old son who has a stable of 6 mechs none of which are more then 15 skills invested. Faction play being higher end competitive play we don’t belong there.
Not everyone who wants to play in a group belongs in FP. Not remotely.

[VonBruinwald]

GARION26, on 17 February 2021 - 09:56 AM, said:

99% of the time I am playing in a group I am playing with my ten year old son who has a stable of 6 mechs none of which are more then 15 skills invested. Faction play being higher end competitive play we don’t belong there.
Not everyone who wants to play in a group belongs in FP. Not remotely.

Oh c'mon, buy the kid some skill points will ya!

[Kroete]

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

It's time for them to join a group or move on to another game.

Which queue was empty?
Which players cried enough to get matched in groups against solo players in the pug queue?
What will happen if all the solo players leave?
[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 19 February 2021 - 12:10 AM.

[Spheroid]

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

I mean, what's the point? The guys that put enough effort into forming a group are the only ones that are keeping PGI afloat financially anyway

What informs this opinion? The premades I encounter are majoritarian comp types. They already have every mech they need thus they have no reason to spend any money at all. I encountered this premade four times in a row yesterday. Does MJ12 need to spend more? Or O0Ps, 42, GOON?

I think if you survey the premades you encounter you will discover significant differences in accrued hours and presumably equipment wealth over the general population. Those who are deficient in equipment and or c-bills are those who are most likely to make purchases.

Edited by Spheroid, 17 February 2021 - 11:14 AM.

[JediPanther]

The patch just proved pgi still don't give a f about the game. They just say whatever and hope to pass the game to the next guy trying to make more profit. BIG NEWS as mech con...we're making a diffrent game than working on mwo...also we lied about steam and gog for a year eith epic and those steam keys we sold you are worthless..but wait there's more! EG7 Deal! You guys like that right? we can make more mw5 dlc and a new game! Mw what?

We tried for years to get groups to play in game with and without solos. I've tried many times in the past to bring in new blood. They left for many reasons but the most common was fighting other with already 'maxed' mechs with full skill trees etc while they are still in trial trash tier mechs. Seeing t1s still with green Cadets really makes me want to come back. No,not really.

[The pessimistic optimist]

GARION26, on 17 February 2021 - 09:56 AM, said:

99% of the time I am playing in a group I am playing with my ten year old son who has a stable of 6 mechs none of which are more then 15 skills invested. Faction play being higher end competitive play we don’t belong there.
Not everyone who wants to play in a group belongs in FP. Not remotely.

Yea and that like 2% of the people in groups in FP

Spheroid, on 17 February 2021 - 10:56 AM, said:

What informs this opinion? The premades I encounter are majoritarian comp types. They already have every mech they need thus they have no reason to spend any money at all. I encountered this premade four times in a row yesterday. Does MJ12 need to spend more? Or O0Ps, 42, GOON?

I think if you survey the premades you encounter you will discover significant differences in accrued hours and presumably equipment wealth. Those who are deficient in equipment and or c-bills are those who are most likely to make purchases.

Logic overwhelming

Edited by SirSmokes, 17 February 2021 - 11:08 AM.

[bilagaana]

The bottom line for me and the reason I'm not playing is that for the solo player of average skills, with groups in QP combined with the absence of a rational matchmaker the game is so unrewarding as to be unplayable.

Assuming skills fall into a bell curve distribution, the play experience for the majority in the middle is ruined by groups and solos from both the tails. Given the low population and the unlikelihood of it significantly increasing, I'm afraid that is a problem that cannot be remedied.

[LowSubmarino]

VonBruinwald, on 17 February 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

Problem is you'll drive off all the pugs and 12-mans will avoid each other because they can't farm stats. We saw this happen with FW.

That said, if you wanted to 12-mans enabled for T1 games only I could get onboard, you'd have to tweak the MM so if there's a group larger than a 4-man is present it will only places T1's in the match. Yes, you'd have to queue longer, but as a competitive 12-man I'm sure you'd rather wait for a balanced match up against a team of T1's than a boring seal clubbing.........

T1 doesnt man **** though. You have completly inexperienced and truly bad players in T1. Many, many in T1. You will easily find many matches were half the team doesnt really break 100 dmg. In T1. That is not a rarity. The tier system doesnt mean anything. It will not tell you if anybody has even a tiny bit experience and skill. Just ignore the tier system.

Edited by LowSubmarino, 17 February 2021 - 12:20 PM.

[Wolfos31]

LowSubmarino, on 17 February 2021 - 12:19 PM, said:

T1 doesnt man **** though. You have completly inexperienced and truly bad players in T1. Many, many in T1. You will easily find many matches were half the team doesnt really break 100 dmg. In T1. That is not a rarity. The tier system doesnt mean anything. It will not tell you if anybody has even a tiny bit experience and skill. Just ignore the tier system.

To give an example. On Jarl's List Low Submarino is ranked 1024 for Jan 2021 and I'm ranked 2335 for Jan 2021. I am JUST outside of Tier 1. I expect I'll get into Tier 1 and still be ranked somewhere around 2000 even. There are a 1000 players better than me and weaker than Low Submarino, and above them are another 1000 players to the peak of Jarl's List. People just barely in T1 are much worse than the folks at the peak if T1. It's a very broad definition of skill.

I also recognize that Jarl's isn't the end all be all of skill ranking, but we work with the tools we have.

Edit to add:

I would say, I've never claimed to be great at this game. But I wouldn't characterize myself as low skill or "truly bad". If I get matched up against peak players I'm sure I'll look like hell. But in the matches I play I consistently pull 400+ damage and a couple of kills.

I still feel that the new PSR system is a more accurate representation of skill. I believe that MOST T1 players are better than MOST T2 players. (assuming their PSR has more or less stabilized)

Edited by Wolfos31, 17 February 2021 - 12:33 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 17 February 2021 - 07:33 AM, said:

Willard is using the term "facts" again... while talking about things no facts have been released about. So take this as usual with a tablespoon of salt.

I really don't want to do the work again. I don't want to spend an hour searching the announcements and cherry picking all the data points we got over the span of the whole matchmaker rebuild. You can look them up yourself.

Paul told us...specifically told us....that when groups were added to QP, the matchmaker was INCAPABLE of using PSR for the premade group in any way, shape or form. It's there, in light blue, in more than one announcement. That simple fact, all by itself, illustrates the intent of how the game is to be shaped in the future.

KNOWING that four T1 comp players can and will group up and be placed in matches with T5 solos and going ahead with the plan pretty much means they knew they were going to drive off new players and/or anyone that gets sick of being harvested. Prove me wrong.

Regardless, it's not like it effects me one way or the other. I lived through the whole FP debacle, this is no different. This, too, shall pass once the population can no longer support what we've got.

Dogstar, on 17 February 2021 - 09:50 AM, said:

It seems to me that there's plenty of room in this game for small groups and solo players but there's definitely a problem with the nasty, entitled, tier 1 types, who think that being good at a video game means that their opinion is better than everyone else's

Attitudes like that are the real problem.

I suppose that matters to someone that's concerned about winning or not. I learned a long time ago that wanting to win in MW:O leads to a lot of unnecessary frustration. That's why I choose other, more attainable goals like Match Score or finishing the challenges.

[Sjorpha]

Dogstar, on 17 February 2021 - 06:03 AM, said:

The thing is that it needs moderation of the maximum size of the group

Tier V - 2 man groups are ok
Tier IV - 4 man groups are ok
Tier III - 6 man groups are ok
Tier II - 8 man groups are ok
Tier 1 - 12 man groups are ok

There also needs to be a tonnage or mech class limit

This the 12 mans get challenged by skilled players and tier V don't get farmed

Overall I think it's better to have one big queue but it needs moderation to prevent abuse

Even simpler would be

Tier 1 - 12 man groups
Tier 2-3 - 4 man groups
Tier 4-5 - 2 man groups

Ok, so what happens if the members of a group are all in different tiers?

[MeanMachinE]

I agree with the original poster that playing with friends should be possible (besides faction play) in the future even though there would be a purely solo queue too. This game is best experienced with friends while having a beer or two It is also the best way to introduce the game to your friends.

I think it is way too early to do changes to the current mixed teams in quick play as the different tiers/valves have not been separated for enough time yet. I agree that the groups should be somehow balanced by the player tiers playing in the groups. The biggest problem that I have had with the mixed groups has been some groups that are not very good (or they practice some tactic that is not working at all) and they usually get killed early on in the match. This usually makes the rest of the match too much of an uphill battle. I don't mind playing against better players as you can sometimes learn a thing or too from them. As this is very much a team game, the team aspect should be kept in it as much as possible.

I still think that this whole issue is mostly a matchmaker issue which should be fixed. As the player base is what is it, it is definitely better if all players would be in the same pool for matchmaking.

The biggest problem related to this game are the forums which are way too toxic. Same guys saying the same things over and over again Some of them are not even playing the game anymore. I really would like PGI to start moderating these discussions more actively. It can be a very daunting experience for a new player to come here and ask any advice about anything. This can drive some players away too.

[Alan Hicks]

MeanMachinE, on 17 February 2021 - 03:35 PM, said:

The biggest problem related to this game are the forums which are way too toxic. Same guys saying the same things over and over again Some of them are not even playing the game anymore. I really would like PGI to start moderating these discussions more actively. It can be a very daunting experience for a new player to come here and ask any advice about anything. This can drive some players away too.

I think leaving or removing groups wont change the game that much. The MM still sucks big time.

And about the forums its obvious, there are some people with almost an addiction to post or comment, you see those over and over again around here... They have the right, yes, they are annoying, almost every time.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

I really don't want to do the work again. I don't want to spend an hour searching the announcements and cherry picking all the data points we got over the span of the whole matchmaker rebuild. You can look them up yourself.

I did. And cherry picking and fitting it to your own weird logic is what you do.
See below.

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

Paul told us...specifically told us....that when groups were added to QP, the matchmaker was INCAPABLE of using PSR for the premade group in any way, shape or form. It's there, in light blue, in more than one announcement. That simple fact, all by itself, illustrates the intent of how the game is to be shaped in the future.

Paul Inouye, on 15 July 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:

Here are the day to day Tier changes over the last 16 days since patch.

[snipped graphic charts]

As of this post, I will be making the maximum Tier separation in the match maker, 1 (one). This means a Tier 1 player should not see any other players outside of Tier 1 or Tier 2.

Now there are some caveates there. If a group of 3 Tier 1 players decides to add a Tier 3 or lower player to their group, there's nothing we can do about that. Next, the release valves still need to be in place but I'm going to be restricting the time it takes for them to kick in and how fast they release over time. For this first test, I'm going to set a hard restriction of 4 minutes before the release valves kick in.

As mentioned, we'll continue to monitor and adjust as needed. At the end of 3 months, we'll take a hard look at all numbers involved and discuss with you the next steps.

-Paul

I'll leave that latest post of Paul stand for itself, for every one to read. As you can see, the matchmaker issues Group PSR in some way, but we are NOT told how exactly it does that.

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

KNOWING that four T1 comp players can and will group up and be placed in matches with T5 solos and going ahead with the plan pretty much means they knew they were going to drive off new players and/or anyone that gets sick of being harvested. Prove me wrong.

Not happening. See above.

How is the PSR of a group counted? Is it average, as my personal experience suggests, or is it max PSR of all members, as it should? Does being in a group apply a flat raise of PSR, which would be even better in my eyes? We don't know.
Now, what do we know? From the charts Paul provided, we can see that the Matchmaker does not really use the Tier in itself for matchmaking, but rather PSR value and Tier is just an abstraction. So being in Tier 1 at PSR value 4002 does not make you equal to the maxed-out Tier 1 player at PSR value 5000.
I also know, by experience, that groups present on a match kick the weight class balance out of the window. Yet I have seen matches where no groups were present, where this balance still was achieved.
We don't know much about the matchmaking algorithm and I don't bank on PG ever letting us in on all the dirty details.

Paul Inouye, on 15 July 2020 - 02:11 PM, said:

As mentioned, we'll continue to monitor and adjust as needed. At the end of 3 months, we'll take a hard look at all numbers involved and discuss with you the next steps.

-Paul

We are still waiting on that talk, but I guess that's on Daeron now and pushed back with the Roadmap 2021.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 17 February 2021 - 10:45 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

TENTACLE BOSS, on 17 February 2021 - 04:17 AM, said:

These updates you are making this year are supposed to increase the longevity of the game, you are not going to achieve that by killing my ability to actually find matches with friends. Do not ruin my experience by reverting to the previous antisocial MWO experience where two people can sit queuing for literally an hour, because they are stuck into a separate minority queue that is almost exclusively populated by sweaty tryhard teams if anyone is even in the queue to begin with.

The thing is that, it's killing the experience for others that produces generally lopsided matches. If you want matches, you just need to line up with the solo-folk. Forcing people to play with you, like you do, isn't good.

Soup-Queue was a mistake, should have been Solo Opt-In for Group-Queue. If they really want to match faster, just make QP 8v8 or something.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 17 February 2021 - 11:00 PM.

[PocketYoda]

As a person that plays with friends every night as a 4 man i agree pre mades should not be influencing the pug solos.. They literally destroy the matchmaker and the game experience..

If i have to play alone so be it if it makes the matches a better experience.. Having multiple tier 1 people exploiting the matchmaker daily with the group queue so they can stomp seals needs to go asap.

Edited by Samial, 18 February 2021 - 12:08 AM.

[Droolcup Commando]

Ill echo the "both options basically suck for some" notion. For me personally i like groups in QP cause i mostly only play the game with my best bud and we have fun despite often losing to better put together teams (we play our favorite mechs and dont give a hoot if they are meta or not).

The MLG gamers mostly hate it cause they find no glory in the clubbing of the seals and the match win rewards mean little to them since they likely have everything they want (not counting event stuff). But sadly the population is so low that faction play or pure group que is basically like waiting at the DMV for your turn. hours later you get a match and boom you die within the first 5 mins, gg time to wait another 45 mins for a match.

Only way i see group que working anymore is if it has a similar pregame lobby like FP did where you can actually watch people join the que and see how close you are to getting a match (maybe keep names unknown till match starts so people dont run away from big names or something and keep it a surprise). Heck, even allow people to arrange lances for some strategic planning to counter typical gameplay.

If and when QP becomes 8v8 i may still play occasionally solo but it would be very infrequent cause whats the point if playing a game if i cant have a laugh with me bud. Id be better off playing something else and let MWO die at that point.

basically regardless of what happens someone loses and if enough people leave from the loss...MWO loses its life.

[MeanMachinE]

The6thMessenger, on 17 February 2021 - 10:57 PM, said:

The thing is that, it's killing the experience for others that produces generally lopsided matches. If you want matches, you just need to line up with the solo-folk. Forcing people to play with you, like you do, isn't good.

I really have not noticed this. In my experience the matches were equally or possibly even more lopsided in the solo queue before groups joined in them. I would still say the result will be close to same if groups are removed. The real problem is with the matchmaker which should be fixed.