104 replies to this topic

[Ruccus]

Looking at the Jarl's list I haven't played since July 2019 so take this for what it's worth as I don't know how easy or hard it is to get into a match or how often PUGs get rolled by groups. My thought is that to make a group queue viable once again it would need to be more flexible in arranging matchups so a group of 20 to 23 players aren't waiting forever for specific sized groups to slot into a match perfectly.

My thought is that a solo queue should have single players and two man teams as I don't consider two players a 'group'. Maybe rename it 'casual queue' or something if solo queue isn't quite accurate. That being said my thought is that after a defined waiting time for arranging a group match, if the the group queue is 4 or fewer players away from forming a valid match a 'Call to Arms' should go out to two man teams and solo players of rank 3 or better which they can answer to fill out the last of the group queue spots (though no more than 2 solo queue players per side) and earn a bonus in earnings as well as a guarantee that their ranking will not decrease (you can improve if you have a good match, but if you suck you stay where you were before the match).

This would help two man teams that are just friends having fun not be forced into the group queue, while also allowing the group queue to more quickly create matches by using solo queue players who know what they're getting themselves into opt in to a group match for a chance at a higher payout. The tier suggestion is just so the team the solo queue player is on knows the player is at least competent enough to know the basics and could be counted on for basic tactics.

[TENTACLE BOSS]

Anomalocaris, on 19 February 2021 - 07:47 AM, said:

Aww shucks, you didn't read the post did you? Population size is on par with where we were nearly _2_ years ago. Last February was the lowest recorded population since data has been published. We are now well over twice that and on par to see the population hit 133% of where we were at the low. 2 years ago we were not discussing merging queues because it wasn't needed. I don't want any groups in _solo_ QP. But I'm willing to compromise, are you? I can understand the rationale for not wanting to subject a new player to group queue, which will generally have more sharks in it. So bring your new friend in a 2-man to solo. But for bigger groups, we clearly have enough players now to reinstitute 8v8 group queue with solo opt-ins. Your assessment of what would happen is completely wrong. I mean entirely, without exception, wrong. If we have an 8v8 group queue you can actually choose to drop in solo or group with a 2 man, or you can get a bigger group and drop 8v8 only. Returning to split queues would bring back a ton of solo players who left the game because they got tired of the absolute dumpster fire that soup queue created. Horrible matchmaking, huge tonnage mismatches, screwed up spawns and being forced to drop with groups which alternately swing from the extremes of high level killers in max tonnage meta lances to complete clownshoe wearing, legally intoxicated, mech-dads playing their lore builds in a severely under-tonned lance. And for groups of 2, you'd have an even bigger population to choose from since you could drop in solo or group. And for solo players who want minimum wait time, they can roll the dice and opt in to group drops. And they already did 8v8, so the software engineering is done, plus people really liked it. Seems like a win-win to me, and we get to undo this ridiculous soup queue matchmaker. Hell, PGI wouldn't need to worry about fixing the spawns anymore either. More resources for other stuff!! Win-win-win

You can be as condescending as you want about my reading comprehension, but here's your exact notion of a compromise: "I'm ok with letting one (and only one) 2-man group on each team in solo queue"

For the reasons aforementioned that isn't good enough. It would be far more reasonable to suggest reducing the group size a bit, its your arbitrary notion of having only one two man group per team per quickplay match that causes major hassle. I'm not willing to compromise to that because its a stupid idea that would make the quickplay experience far worse for friends. Going from reliably finding matches with friends, to not reliably finding matches with less friends isn't good enough. This games quickplay was in the **** for years and I don't want to return to that, even partially.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Bad Players lost against better players ...its a Natural Rule ,and Guys thats plays solo like a Headless KD Chicken with Tunnelview and Action-First mentality lost all time against players with Experience,im plyed without each Communication with experience and each has the Experience to do the right Thing to the Right Time,Building Firelines, stop Flanking Attacks, watch the sides and Back, helps teammates who seeing under pressure, all thats was Ego Player not do ...Fight alone -Die alone-and all without each Chat or speaking Word ,a Still communication of skill.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 20 February 2021 - 03:23 AM.

[Anomalocaris]

TENTACLE BOSS, on 19 February 2021 - 11:52 PM, said:

You can be as condescending as you want about my reading comprehension, but here's your exact notion of a compromise: "I'm ok with letting one (and only one) 2-man group on each team in solo queue"

For the reasons aforementioned that isn't good enough. It would be far more reasonable to suggest reducing the group size a bit, its your arbitrary notion of having only one two man group per team per quickplay match that causes major hassle. I'm not willing to compromise to that because its a stupid idea that would make the quickplay experience far worse for friends. Going from reliably finding matches with friends, to not reliably finding matches with less friends isn't good enough. This games quickplay was in the **** for years and I don't want to return to that, even partially.

Again, you're just expressing your feelings without considering the numbers or the facts. Soup queue made match quality objectively worse than it was when it was solos only (more stomps, even in the best case scenario - and they haven't released data on what happened since Paul loosened the matchmaking parameters - which has historically made stomps worse). We now have large tonnage imbalances that never existed before. We have slow mechs spawning in places on a number of maps where it is almost impossible for them to engage with their teammates before getting rolled by enemy fast movers. And we have groups that break the matchmaker because PGI cannot properly account for their skill level, or the effect of aggregating that skill level. These are not opinions. These are facts. All these things happened as a result of merging the queues.

We can also note that for four months after merging the queues the population trend in MWO was down - significantly. We can argue about causes, but it happened.

Anecdotally it appears most matches today have a group in them. I regularly see streamers and youtubers posting matches with a group of 3 and 2 on each side. That's nearly 40% of the match consisting of groups. Since even in times of lowest population (2-3am US) there are 750-800 players online, that's a lot of group players. Even if the numbers are only 20% group players, that's still enough for 10 8v8 group games to kick off under worst conditions at any given time. And that's without considering solo opt-ins.

You're concerned about what you want. But you're not the only player out there. Lots of people left the game because of soup queue. And horrible potato groups have as much or more to do with it as do high skilled groups (there are probably more of the former). The whole reason for merging the queues was low population. The population has recovered a lot in the last few months. Unless you're willing to make the argument that the current population is unsustainable, the factors arguing for a queue merge no longer exist. And the problems with the queue merge remain. So unmerge the queues. You'll still get groups drops and you can still run 2-mans in "solo".

[Bigbacon]

they need to:
1: remove them OR
2: limit their number to 2 OR
3: force them into weight limits or class limits depending on how many there are and MM needs to weight accordingly.

[Vellron2005]

Willard Phule, on 17 February 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

I agree, and I'll go so far as to say they should extend groups to full 12 man premades.

I mean, what's the point? The guys that put enough effort into forming a group are the only ones that are keeping PGI afloat financially anyway, and if winning is important, then it's important enough to join a group. Just like in FP. There's really no place for casual solos here anymore. It's time for them to join a group or move on to another game.

I hope this is one big sarcasm post, because if it's not then there's something really negative in your desire to drive this game completely under.

FP is a cesspool of comp players and people who were banned, should be banned, and should have been banned a long time ago for various nefarious acts.

These people kill all the fun for normal people who just wanna have a good time playing a game.

If group and solo ques were not joined, this game would have already died out a long time ago..

IF and only IF the population rises dramatically should the two be un-joined.

[VonBruinwald]

Anomalocaris, on 20 February 2021 - 03:47 AM, said:

Again, you're just expressing your feelings without considering the numbers or the facts. Soup queue made match quality objectively worse than it was when it was solos only (more stomps, even in the best case scenario - and they haven't released data on what happened since Paul loosened the matchmaking parameters - which has historically made stomps worse).

Hence why I've decided to start logging. Paul's numbers said 30% before he loosened the valves, I'm getting in excess of 40.

[SentrySteve]

Hello everyone,

My friend and I have casually played MWO for many years. Even if there was a small stack of skilled players on the other team it almost never felt hopeless, games were typically competitive, and we enjoyed ourselves.

We had to stop maybe a year or two ago because the quickmatch feature would simply not work and not put us in games when we were grouped together. We really didn't care about all the specifics of whether the game's algorithm thought the match was perfectly balanced or not -- we just wanted to use the hour and half we had available in our day to play some MWO together.

We reinstalled and tried again in early 2019 I believe, and we found that we were still unable to play grouped together.

Am I now reading that in late 2020 they changed it back so that groups can actually play games? If so, I would strongly encourage the developers to leave it this way. And if they did, then I'm going to have to my buddy to reinstall so we can at least play this for a few months/week before the game prevents groups from playing together again.

Edited by SentrySteve, 22 February 2021 - 06:59 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

SentrySteve, on 22 February 2021 - 06:49 AM, said:

Hello everyone,

My friend and I have casually played MWO for many years. Even if there was a small stack of skilled players on the other team it almost never felt hopeless, games were typically competitive, and we enjoyed ourselves.

We had to stop maybe a year or two ago because the quickmatch feature would simply not work and not put us in games when we were grouped together. We really didn't care about all the specifics of whether the game's algorithm thought the match was perfectly balanced or not -- we just wanted to use the hour and half we had available in our day to play some MWO together.

We reinstalled and tried again in early 2019 I believe, and we found that we were still unable to play grouped together.

Am I now reading that in late 2020 they changed it back so that groups can actually play games? If so, I would strongly encourage the developers to leave it this way. And if they did, then I'm going to have to my buddy to reinstall so we can at least play this for a few months/week before the game prevents groups from playing together again.

They need a group and solo queue so everyone is happy

[SentrySteve]

SirSmokes, on 22 February 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

They need a group and solo queue so everyone is happy

Do you know if groups are now able to actually play the game?

Regarding your comment, it's my understanding that when queue's were split my friend and I were simply unable to get matches and we quit a game we played for years. Nearly every others single multiplayer game in the past decade has figured out how have groups play with solo individuals, especially in a casual setting, so I'm sure MWO devs can figure it out too!

[Willard Phule]

Vellron2005, on 21 February 2021 - 09:36 AM, said:

I hope this is one big sarcasm post, because if it's not then there's something really negative in your desire to drive this game completely under.

FP is a cesspool of comp players and people who were banned, should be banned, and should have been banned a long time ago for various nefarious acts.

These people kill all the fun for normal people who just wanna have a good time playing a game.

If group and solo ques were not joined, this game would have already died out a long time ago..

IF and only IF the population rises dramatically should the two be un-joined.

MY desire to drive the game under? How did I give the impression I had anything to do with making it happen? PGI obviously wants it to tank, based on the decisions they've made since it began.

As for all the "normal people that just wanna have a good time," what makes you think PGI cares about them in the slightest? They're not the ones spending money on nonsense, keeping this game and everything else PGI decides to produce funded. This entire thing was to appease the groups because there wasn't enough population to keep their server open.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

SentrySteve, on 22 February 2021 - 07:36 AM, said:

Do you know if groups are now able to actually play the game? Regarding your comment, it's my understanding that when queue's were split my friend and I were simply unable to get matches and we quit a game we played for years. Nearly every others single multiplayer game in the past decade has figured out how have groups play with solo individuals, especially in a casual setting, so I'm sure MWO devs can figure it out too!

Groups of up to 4 Players can drop together with solos currently in quickplay. So grab your friend and get some matches!

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 22 February 2021 - 07:47 AM, said:

MY desire to drive the game under? How did I give the impression I had anything to do with making it happen? PGI obviously wants it to tank, based on the decisions they've made since it began.

As for all the "normal people that just wanna have a good time," what makes you think PGI cares about them in the slightest? They're not the ones spending money on nonsense, keeping this game and everything else PGI decides to produce funded. This entire thing was to appease the groups because there wasn't enough population to keep their server open.

I am pretty sure if they can get and keep new players that would net them more money then people that have everything already

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 22 February 2021 - 10:39 AM, said:

I am pretty sure if they can get and keep new players that would net them more money then people that have everything already

Name one thing they've done in the last 5 years that leads you to believe that they either want to get new players or retain them. Just one.

I can name a dozen that point directly to the opposite. PGI's business model has always been "Please come check out our game and spend some money, then just go away before you realize it's a minimally viable product."

[General Solo]

SentrySteve, on 22 February 2021 - 07:36 AM, said:

...Nearly every others single multiplayer game in the past decade has figured out how have groups play with solo individuals, especially in a casual setting, so I'm sure MWO devs can figure it out too!...

Nearly every game!
I would be very surprised if this were true!
Sounds not true!

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 23 February 2021 - 04:16 AM, said:

Name one thing they've done in the last 5 years that leads you to believe that they either want to get new players or retain them. Just one.

I can name a dozen that point directly to the opposite. PGI's business model has always been "Please come check out our game and spend some money, then just go away before you realize it's a minimally viable product."

DUH this is why the population is so low and it make me just SMH new player are were the money is

[Dionis Ra]

Losing 10 matches in a row and getting completely obliterated by groups as a solo player is exactly why groups shouldn't be allowed in QP.

Edited by Dionis Ra, 23 February 2021 - 06:55 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Losing streaks are not an invention of the Soup Queue Era, though.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I dunno, I feel we are missing the point completely with this discussion about groups, most of the time. And I am saying that as someone that quit due to that change and has only recently come back to play the odd game.

The groups are not the issue, in my opinion. It is who is in them.If you have a group of 4 Top End Competetive Players in a group, chances are that their team will win. And if you have a group of 4 new players in unskilled Mechs that don't know what they are doing, chances are your team will lose. Not because they are in a group (although synergy builds and better teamwork may also affect the match), but because you are stacking the deck for one team quality wise.

If those same people were in the same match, without a group, the end results would still be the same. If you put 4 99%ers on one side or 4 1%ers, even without the option of grouping, the result will be identical.

Personally I think PGI should invest in overhauling how the 24 people in the match get distributed among the Teams. If you have the 4 best players in the match on one side, that team should also get the 4 worst players to at least balance the match somewhat.

I have to agree with the sentiment behind the change, being unable to play with friends is stupid and does hurt the longevity of the game. Surely there are enough way to at least diminish the effect of premades to the point where they do not upset the complete match balance in either way.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Grumpy Old Man, on 24 February 2021 - 12:08 AM, said:

I dunno, I feel we are missing the point completely with this discussion about groups, most of the time. And I am saying that as someone that quit due to that change and has only recently come back to play the odd game.

The groups are not the issue, in my opinion. It is who is in them.If you have a group of 4 Top End Competetive Players in a group, chances are that their team will win. And if you have a group of 4 new players in unskilled Mechs that don't know what they are doing, chances are your team will lose. Not because they are in a group (although synergy builds and better teamwork may also affect the match), but because you are stacking the deck for one team quality wise.

If those same people were in the same match, without a group, the end results would still be the same. If you put 4 99%ers on one side or 4 1%ers, even without the option of grouping, the result will be identical.

Personally I think PGI should invest in overhauling how the 24 people in the match get distributed among the Teams. If you have the 4 best players in the match on one side, that team should also get the 4 worst players to at least balance the match somewhat.

I have to agree with the sentiment behind the change, being unable to play with friends is stupid and does hurt the longevity of the game. Surely there are enough way to at least diminish the effect of premades to the point where they do not upset the complete match balance in either way.

Can't fix the till they get the player population up. The matches are only as good as the player pool there is to make matches with. Having mixed solo and group hurts player retention catch 22

Edited by SirSmokes, 24 February 2021 - 02:34 AM.