132 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 February 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

Is it worth noting that nerfing the Vapor Eagle just means people will do the same thing in the Summoner?

Gosh darn that Summoner, with its agility equal to one class below it!! NERF THE GUN NIPPLES!

[RickySpanish]

Heavy Money, on 21 February 2021 - 11:31 AM, said:

You're assuming some slippery slope of always getting rid of the best option. You can lock the vapor eagle at an XL300 and it still does 2xUAC10 better than the bushwhacker, and with jump jets. It'll still have more tonnage to work with than many heavy omnimechs, let alone mediums, so the comparison is silly.

Depending on armor values, it has 28tons open. That's still have more room to work with than most Hunchback II's. In other words, it'll still run more firepower than any other medium, and as much as some 60 tonners. It just won't be able to run as much firepower as some 75tonners! Oh no! How will it EVER be useful?

UAC10 bushies and Rac2 Champions aren't massively outperforming their equivalents, are not overwhelmingly dominant meta mechs, and don't get to run weapon loadouts an entire weight class bigger than they are. They aren't a problem, why would they be changed? And if the bushie is good now, why won't the vapor eagle be good running that loadout? Oh wait, people already run that and it IS good. Its just not as popular as the even nastier loadouts the Veagle can run.

You're assuming that the Vapor Eagle is some sort of God 'Mech because Grimmechs has it listed in the S Class for a bunch of loadouts, but it's simply not over powered. It's a good 'Mech, but it's huge, its left torso is always its major weak point, it's not particularly agile and to run its big gun loadouts it ends up plodding along at a miserable speed of about 75kph. Many Clan 'Mechs are designed with a glass cannon mentality, you can put an LB10X and small lasers on a Kitfox for crying out loud. The Arctic Cheetah can mount a pile of SRM 6 launchers and the Hunchie can smash faces with two Ultra AC 20s.

You know what I see do tons of damage in games? It's not Triple PPC Vapor Eagles, nor is it the one brave soul in the A with a brawler loadout; sometimes ATM boats get a couple of kills, but by far and away the best damage dealers I see are Vulcan 5Ts, Assassins, and pretty much any quirked inner sphere 'Mech that isn't an Annihilator, that can stack medium pulse lasers or SRMs.

Edited by RickySpanish, 21 February 2021 - 01:33 PM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 February 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

Is it worth noting that nerfing the Vapor Eagle just means people will do the same thing in the Summoner?

They might, but I don't really see all the commotion about the 3 ERPPC build on it (not as much tonnage to spam DHS with).

[The pessimistic optimist]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 February 2021 - 01:13 PM, said:

Is it worth noting that nerfing the Vapor Eagle just means people will do the same thing in the Summoner?

That why I say make the fall damage more with out using jump jets to slow it down

[Heavy Money]

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 12:10 PM, said:

Did you even read what I wrote? I said Clan 'Mechs always take a loadout comparable to one IS class above, not comparable to one class above within the Clan tech tree.

Did you even read what you wrote? Its only a few posts up. Let me quote you for you:

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 10:13 AM, said:

It's a Clan 'Mech, it's what they do. It's not running a 70 ton Clan loadout, it's running a 70 ton IS loadout.

Wow! You are wrong. You are wrong about what you said. Then you claimed to have said something else even though its written right there. Are you trying to fool people? Or are you just so wrong that your mind has recoiled and retoconned your own post to help you cope?

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 12:10 PM, said:

But since you asked:

- HBK-IIC; 2xUAC/20, 2xERLL+6xERML, 2x ERPPC+6xERSL; comparable to RFL-IIC, Ebon Jag, Summoner
- NTG; 1xUAC/10+3UAC/5, 2xGauss+2xERPPC - comparable to Blood Asp, Kodiak
- RFL-IIC; 2xUAC/10+2xUAC/5 - comparable to Blood Asp, Mad Cat Mk. II

Good job! There's also the Ebon Jaguar running a similar laser vomit to the Marauder IIC.
But there's a big difference between these and the Vapor Eagle which you are conveniently glossing over.

These mechs all make sacrifices to run these loadouts, and several still aren't that great. The Hunchback and Rifleman II's whole role is to run more firepower than usual at the cost of poor durability, speed, and mobility for their size class. Its fine for them to do it because they paid to. What has the vapor eagle paid?

The Ebon Jaguar can run the same weapon loadout as a Marauder IIC. But the heat is staggeringly worse. And its still a very strong loadout, which supports my argument that being able to run a loadout a size class higher is a big advantage. The EBJ pays for it with its geometry and other issues. What is the Vapor Eagle paying for its advantages?

The Night Gyr can run similar loadouts to several assaults, but it does it while essentially being a mini-assault itself in terms of size, speed, and mobility. It hasn't turned into a top meta mech, nor has it replaced those assault mechs. There's very little reason to run a triple ERPPC sunspider over a Vapor Eagle. There's still plenty of reason to run a Blood Asp over a Night Gyr. In fact, I think i see about 5x as many Blood Asps as Night Gyrs.

The purpose of me asking you to name other mechs that can do similar things is to get you to think about it yourself, and realize that these other mechs are paying considerable costs. Again, what is the Vapor Eagle paying?

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 12:17 PM, said:

The VEagle has low hardpoints and spongy legs. The RFL-IIC that is meta is not slow. The NTG also only received its horrid agility AFTER the complaining around here was done.

It doesn't have perfect hitboxes and mounts. Neither do lots of mediumd equivalent in speed, or heavies equivalent in firepower. But obviously, it still comes out ahead compared to other similar mediums due to better firepower, and also ahead of heavies with equivalent firepower due to better agility and size. And are your seriously going to argue about the Night Gyr based on what it USED to be, rather than what it is?

You can try to say that this or that thing balances it, but at the end of the day, it has multiple top performing metabuilds, and equivalent mechs don't. So obviously its pros are outweighing its cons. Its not a theoretical matter.

Edited by Heavy Money, 21 February 2021 - 01:47 PM.

[John Bronco]

Even if all that is true, I don't see how you can conclude the veagle should be kneecapped in a manner far more devastating than the gyr? At least the gyr got to keep its guns and retains situational use.

[Heavy Money]

BlaizerP, on 21 February 2021 - 01:54 PM, said:

Even if all that is true, I don't see how you can conclude the veagle should be kneecapped in a manner far more devastating than the gyr? At least the gyr got to keep its guns and retains situational use.

I don't think i am arguing that. I think it should still be able to run more firepower than most mediums, but not so much as it does now (it is 55 ton clan battlemech after all.) I'm arguing for it to go from S++ tier to S or A+ tier. That's it.

Edited by Heavy Money, 21 February 2021 - 01:58 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Heavy Money, on 21 February 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

Did you even read what you wrote? Its only a few posts up. Let me quote you for you:

Wow! You are wrong. You are wrong about what you said. Then you claimed to have said something else even though its written right there. Are you trying to fool people? Or are you just so wrong that your mind has recoiled and retoconned your own post to help you cope?

Uh, re-read the post. Let's zero in on it since you are incapable of reading:

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 10:13 AM, said:

It's a Clan 'Mech, it's what they do. It's not running a 70 ton Clan loadout, it's running a 70 ton IS loadout. Heaven forbid Clans have a Medium that isn't pigeon-holed into a single role. Last time they had one, everybody QQ'd so hard that PGI forced it to handle like a 90 tonner.

Oh my god, it's almost like I know exactly what I wrote and you are too busy frothing at the mouth to read it!

Quote

Good job! There's also the Ebon Jaguar running a similar laser vomit to the Marauder IIC.
But there's a big difference between these and the Vapor Eagle which you are conveniently glossing over.

Shifting goalposts and, no, there isn't.

Quote

These mechs all make sacrifices to run these loadouts, and several still aren't that great. The Hunchback and Rifleman II's whole role is to run more firepower than usual at the cost of poor durability, speed, and mobility for their size class. Its fine for them to do it because they paid to. What has the vapor eagle paid?

What, pray-tell, is the sacrifice being made by any of the 'Mechs in the list that the VEagle doesn't have to make? The VEagle is not exceptionally durable. The VEagle is not exceptionally fast. The VEagle doesn't have a great peaking profile.

Quote

The Ebon Jaguar can run the same weapon loadout as a Marauder IIC. But the heat is staggeringly worse. And its still a very strong loadout, which supports my argument that being able to run a loadout a size class higher is a big advantage. The EBJ pays for it with its geometry and other issues. What is the Vapor Eagle paying for its advantages?

Both the MAD-IIC and the EBJ hit in the high 90s when you fire the alpha because heat capacity from sinks is tiny, and by the time your cERML are done cycling you are most of the way cooled off. It's the smallest difference.

The VGL can't peak well, it has to jump so its whole torso is exposed so it can shoot. That gives you ample time to fire back at it. If it's an Atlas build VEagle, then it's slow and useless outside of 300 meters and not at all as tanky as an Atlas. If it's the Dakka VEagle, it has the same weakness as the dakka DRG minus the durability quirks.

Quote

The Night Gyr can run similar loadouts to several assaults, but it does it while essentially being a mini-assault itself in terms of size, speed, and mobility. It hasn't turned into a top meta mech, nor has it replaced those assault mechs. There's very little reason to run a triple ERPPC sunspider over a Vapor Eagle. There's still plenty of reason to run a Blood Asp over a Night Gyr. In fact, I think i see about 5x as many Blood Asps as Night Gyrs.

The NTG runs at the same nominal speed most IS Heavies do, 64.8 kph. It only got Assault agility after people complained about it being decent and that has only had the effect of turning it into a turret 'Mech that's only really good when it can rely on the team to give it space.

Frankly, I run 4x ERPPC on my Sunspider. I only use it during Faction, but it holds up pretty well in that environment with the high mounts and low momentum gameplay.

BLasp these days is usually UAC/20+2xUAC/10, not something you can run on a Night Gyr because it can't carry the ammo.

Quote

The purpose of me asking you to name other mechs that can do similar things is to get you to think about it yourself, and realize that these other mechs are paying considerable costs. Again, what is the Vapor Eagle paying?

These 'Mechs are not paying the costs you think they are. The VEagle is paying every bit the same costs, but because you can't seem to kill it it must obviously be amazing.

Quote

It doesn't have perfect hitboxes and mounts. Neither do lots of mediumd equivalent in speed, or heavies equivalent in firepower. But obviously, it still comes out ahead compared to other similar mediums due to better firepower, and also ahead of heavies with equivalent firepower due to better agility and size. And are your seriously going to argue about the Night Gyr based on what it USED to be, rather than what it is?

Oh hey, it sounds like the VEagle is making some trade-offs.

Quote

You can try to say that this or that thing balances it, but at the end of the day, it has multiple top performing metabuilds, and equivalent mechs don't. So obviously its pros are outweighing its cons. Its not a theoretical matter.

There are lots of 'Mechs that have high performing meta-builds on them. Some would be even better than they are if the rest of the game wasn't encouraging big-engine, high-DPS all the time. Maybe you should be asking yourself why other 'Mechs aren't as favored and address those issues, first.

[Heavy Money]

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 12:10 PM, said:

I said Clan 'Mechs always take a loadout comparable to one IS class above, not comparable to one class above within the Clan tech tree.

You claimed Clan mechs run loadouts comparable to IS class one above, but not comparable to clan loadouts of one above. I then provided a list of loadouts the Vapor Eagle runs, including its top meta loadouts, that ARE clan loadouts one above. So you are wrong.

You also provided your own list of clan mechs OTHER than the vapor eagle that run a clan mech loadout a class above themselves, despite having stated that they DON'T do this, and only run loadouts equivalent to an IS class above. And you still haven't caught on that I asked you this because i knew you would contradict yourself again So you are wrong about that too.

Its not shifting the goalposts, its expanding the context. My claim, from the very beginning of the thread (which you probably didn't even read) was that the Vapor Eagle is out of proportion, not that all mechs that are upgunned are imbalanced (they aren't if they pay enough of a price for it. The Vapor Eagle doesn't. That's the argument.) For it to be shifting the goal posts, my claim would have had to be that the Vapor Eagle is overpowered because its the only mech that can run upgunned loadouts at all.

Quote

What, pray-tell, is the sacrifice being made by any of the 'Mechs in the list that the VEagle doesn't have to make? The VEagle is not exceptionally durable. The VEagle is not exceptionally fast. The VEagle doesn't have a great peaking profile.

Its a lot more durable and faster than equivalent Hunchback IIs (depending on engine choice, of course). And its a much better peaker than the heavies whose loadouts it can run due to its mobility stats and jump jets. Go ahead and compare the durability and speed differences between the Triple ERPPC Vapor eagle and Triple ERPPC hunchback II. Which is the popular meta choice? And go ahead and compare the Triple ERPPC Vapor Eagle to the Triple ERPPC Sunspider. Which is the popular meta choice? Why play the sunspider version over the Vapor Eagle's version? The armor difference is not as good as mobility + jumping.

Quote

Both the MAD-IIC and the EBJ hit in the high 90s when you fire the alpha because heat capacity from sinks is tiny, and by the time your cERML are done cycling you are most of the way cooled off. It's the smallest difference.

What? No, neither of them hit in the 90's. Maybe if you had no heat skills at all? Their heat spikes to mid 70's and high 60's respectively. The Marauder IIC cools significantly faster. 1.34 heat rating vs 1.47. Its a huge difference in when you can fire your second full volley. Do you actually even play these loadouts? You'd know this if you did.

Quote

The VGL can't peak well, it has to jump so its whole torso is exposed so it can shoot.

As before, now compare it to heavy mechs with the same loadout.

Quote

The NTG runs at the same nominal speed most IS Heavies do, 64.8 kph

Same speed as the Blood Asp, and only a tiny bit faster than most MadCat II's. Why are we comparing to IS heavies?

Quote

BLasp these days is usually UAC/20+2xUAC/10, not something you can run on a Night Gyr because it can't carry the ammo.

Oh, so the Night Gyr ISN'T running meta assault loadouts then?

Quote

These 'Mechs are not paying the costs you think they are. The VEagle is paying every bit the same costs, but because you can't seem to kill it it must obviously be amazing.

Ah yes, the good old "you think something is imbalaned, so you must just be losing to it". Real killshot of an argument there. Also, refer to previous comparisons mentioned above. If the Veagle is sacrificing just as much as other mechs, how come its version of the loadout is a top rated meta build, and their isn't? Are you telling me there's some OTHER aspect of the Vapor Eagle that's making it so strong that I've missed? You really love undermining your own arguments. Next you're just going to resort to telling me that the Vapor Eagle just isn't actually good.

Quote

Oh hey, it sounds like the VEagle is making some trade-offs.

Not enough. That's what i've been saying the whole thread. Which you didn't read. Which is why we're now having this silly back and forth.

[PocketYoda]

I don't see adding a 275 engine to the mech is a limit.. its perfect.

[VonBruinwald]

Samial, on 21 February 2021 - 10:48 PM, said:

I don't see adding a 275 engine to the mech is a limit.. its perfect.

Honestly, I'm not sure why they haven't done this across the board. They set upper limits.

Should give every mech engine limits the equivalent to +/- 1 hex of tabletop speed.

[Willard Phule]

SirSmokes, on 21 February 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

I am not really for nerfing it how about an indirect nerf. Most of the problems with VE is pop sniping with ATMs cer PPCs ect. Why not make it harder to land with out doing some leg damage. Make it so if you are jumping to full high and just dropping like a rock with no fuel in the JJs to soften the land you will take more leg damage nothing crazy just a bit more leg damage. It will force people to be more careful with the popping up and just dropping down like a rock. Make it so you need this much fuel how much can be debated on the come down to soften that landing or you will be hurting yourself. It will make it little harder to just jump all over the place willnilly. Make it so the longer fall the hard that hit you take. Just an idea

You're acting like this is the first time, ever, that a mech has excelled at something then got the nerf hammer. Once upon a time, the gauss mechanic was the same as everything else. The reason they changed it was because of poptart snipers in the first place. Also the reason why you can only fire 2 ppcs without ghost heat. Same thing with the Jump Jet shake.

Look, if it's Clan, then it's OP. Everything Clan must be nerfed so it is inferior to Inner Sphere, then just a little more to be sure. If they didn't do that, Timberwolves and Dire Whales would be effective and that is absolutely unacceptable.

[VonBruinwald]

Willard Phule, on 22 February 2021 - 07:50 AM, said:

Look, if it's Clan, then it's OP. Everything Clan must be nerfed so it is inferior to Inner Sphere, then just a little more to be sure. If they didn't do that, Timberwolves and Dire Whales would be effective and that is absolutely unacceptable.

If IS tech was superior to Clan tech. Would Clanners still like the Clans for "lore" reasons...

[GweNTLeR]

Engine solution is good, but I think not the best and absolutely not enough.
The first time I tried it I was amased by how awesome it moves and jumps. Not to mention good hardpoints and hitboxes.
Here is a some quick comparison with mechs somewhat capable of similar roles (jumping with PPC/missile spamming):
CHASSIS | ACCEL | DECEL | TORSO TURN RATE | TORSO TURN ANGLE
Vapor | 33.86 | 36.36 | 108 | 125
GRF-2N/3M | 29.26 | 33.63 | 103.5 | 130
SPARKY | 33.86 | 36.36 | 112.5 | 130
SHD-2K | 31.55 | 35 | 103.5 | 90
HBK-IIC(A,| 20 | 31 | 81 | 80
HMN | 29.26 | 37 | 99 | 115
So, basically VGL:

• have BETTER AGILITY STATS than most 50t clan mechs which are somewhat capable of similar roles (while having no restrictions);
  
• have BETTER or ON PAR agility stats with 55t IS mechs with much worser hardpoints(and/or hitboxes);
  
• have unique jumping quirks, making it highly superior to everything else poptarting.

Solution? Nerf VGL agility to HBK-IIC levels, it's absolutely justified. Specifically target torso turn rate, torso turn angle and limit arm movevent to 10 degrees.

[Gas Guzzler]

Miss Greene, on 21 February 2021 - 02:10 PM, said:

BLasp these days is usually UAC/20+2xUAC/10, not something you can run on a Night Gyr because it can't carry the ammo.

Without getting in the middle of your discussion (I agree with you on most points), you can run it on the Night Gyr with ECM and enough ammo for 1000+ damage games. I didn't think so, but after dropping with Saikyou for a while I caved and tried it. It's good.

FupDup, on 21 February 2021 - 01:33 PM, said:

They might, but I don't really see all the commotion about the 3 ERPPC build on it (not as much tonnage to spam DHS with).

Eh. Its got some minor quirks and it seems to have enough DHS, and its also more durable.

[RickySpanish]

GweNTLeR, on 22 February 2021 - 09:14 AM, said:

Engine solution is good, but I think not the best and absolutely not enough.
The first time I tried it I was amased by how awesome it moves and jumps. Not to mention good hardpoints and hitboxes.
Here is a some quick comparison with mechs somewhat capable of similar roles (jumping with PPC/missile spamming):
CHASSIS | ACCEL | DECEL | TORSO TURN RATE | TORSO TURN ANGLE
Vapor | 33.86 | 36.36 | 108 | 125
GRF-2N/3M | 29.26 | 33.63 | 103.5 | 130
SPARKY | 33.86 | 36.36 | 112.5 | 130
SHD-2K | 31.55 | 35 | 103.5 | 90
HBK-IIC(A,| 20 | 31 | 81 | 80
HMN | 29.26 | 37 | 99 | 115
So, basically VGL:

• have BETTER AGILITY STATS than most 50t clan mechs which are somewhat capable of similar roles (while having no restrictions);
  
• have BETTER or ON PAR agility stats with 55t IS mechs with much worser hardpoints(and/or hitboxes);
  
• have unique jumping quirks, making it highly superior to everything else poptarting.

Solution? Nerf VGL agility to HBK-IIC levels, it's absolutely justified. Specifically target torso turn rate, torso turn angle and limit arm movevent to 10 degrees.

Your last point really stood out to me, and it suggests that you don't know what you're talking about. The jump jet quirks are miniscule, they really don't do much for the 'Mech. You need to fill out 6 jump jets before you see much of a difference at all and that's excessive tonnage and space wasted. Not to mention that the geometry of VGL blows for pop tarting, since the lower energy hardpoints in the torso must be exposed.

[GweNTLeR]

RickySpanish, on 22 February 2021 - 10:19 AM, said:

Your last point really stood out to me, and it suggests that you don't know what you're talking about. The jump jet quirks are miniscule, they really don't do much for the 'Mech. You need to fill out 6 jump jets before you see much of a difference at all and that's excessive tonnage and space wasted. Not to mention that the geometry of VGL blows for pop tarting, since the lower energy hardpoints in the torso must be exposed.

The quirks are following:
Jump Jet Burn Time: 15.00 %
Initial Thrust of Jump Jets: 15.00 %
The first one prolongs BURN DURATION.
Meaning, you can stay up to 15% longer in the air. It doesn't really matter how much JJs are used ,since it would prolong air time by 15% anyway. It is debatable whether 15% is dramatic difference or not, but it is definitely enough to feel.
As for geometry - well, it doesn't really matter THAT much - you don't alpha those 3 ppcs anyway, so you'll have to jump abit higher to shoot them 2+1 anyway. Doesn't matter for ATM one at all.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 22 February 2021 - 10:46 AM.

[RickySpanish]

GweNTLeR, on 22 February 2021 - 10:44 AM, said:

The quirks are following:
Jump Jet Burn Time: 15.00 %
Initial Thrust of Jump Jets: 15.00 %
The first one prolongs BURN DURATION.
Meaning, you can stay up to 15% longer in the air. It doesn't really matter how much JJs are used ,since it would prolong air time by 15% anyway. It is debatable whether 15% is dramatic difference or not, but it is definitely enough to feel.
As for geometry - well, it doesn't really matter THAT much - you don't alpha those 3 ppcs anyway, so you'll have to jump abit higher to shoot them 2+1 anyway. Doesn't matter for ATM one at all.

Geometry doesn't bother the ATM boat, but for all VGLs whose builds allow enough jets to make a discernible difference with the quirks, jump jetting is gated by heat pretty quickly anyway.

[GweNTLeR]

RickySpanish, on 22 February 2021 - 11:17 AM, said:

Geometry doesn't bother the ATM boat, but for all VGLs whose builds allow enough jets to make a discernible difference with the quirks, jump jetting is gated by heat pretty quickly anyway.

Dude, its 3.5s(if I recall correctly-too lazy to log on) burn time versus 4.025s.
JJ amount doesn't affect duration. Even with one JJ you get full duration.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 22 February 2021 - 11:42 AM.

[Elizander]

Well, the only thing you can do is remove the JJ quirks. PGI did away with negative quirks like minus armor which some omnipods had. Other than that, PGI can do their thing where they make the Vapor Eagle move like a giant slug in the middle of winter (nuke its agility to the ground).

Hits as hard as a Night Gyr? Well, make it as sluggish as a Night Gyr or worse. Kill the turn rate, kill the torso twist range, kill it all.

Edited by Elizander, 22 February 2021 - 12:23 PM.