132 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 19 February 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

-Le snip
ATMs on other mechs aren't really a problem.
-Le snip

Honestly...yeah ATMs are kinda cray cray in general. Maybe not on a Shadow Cat, because the Scat isn't good with any loadout frankly, but the VGL isn't the only mech that can leverage the strengths of ATMs. It just so happens to leverage ATMs much better than any other mech. The Huntsman and Hunchie IIC are the runner-up choices that are pretty good ATM carriers but not quite OMGWTFBBQ status like the Vape Eagle. A future high-end medium or midsize heavy with jets and a good engine cap would probably join the ATM party.

TL;DR: Whynotboth.jpeg.

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 19 February 2021 - 05:11 PM, said:

Honestly...yeah ATMs are kinda cray cray in general. Maybe not on a Shadow Cat, because the Scat isn't good with any loadout frankly, but the VGL isn't the only mech that can leverage the strengths of ATMs. It just so happens to leverage ATMs much better than any other mech. The Huntsman and Hunchie IIC are the runner-up choices that are pretty good ATM carriers but not quite OMGWTFBBQ status like the Vape Eagle. A future high-end medium or midsize heavy with jets and a good engine cap would probably join the ATM party.

TL;DR: Whynotboth.jpeg.

I'm not personally that bothered by the current state of ATMs, but I will concede that it may be an issue, and I do see people complain about them. My main argument is the proportional differences though. I would be interested to see if people still complained about ATMs if the Veagle wasn't running as many. Heavies run a similar amount (often less), but with much worse mobility and without the poptarting. Mediums that have the mobility and poptarting run a lot less. Veagle gets best of both worlds.

Edited by Heavy Money, 19 February 2021 - 05:18 PM.

[Sasuga]

So, like the Huntsman?

[FupDup]

Sasuga, on 19 February 2021 - 05:25 PM, said:

So, like the Huntsman?

The Huntsman is a good robbit but it's no Vape Eagle.

[John Bronco]

Heavy Money, on 19 February 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

Arguing that it isn't vastly powerful because mostly top tier assault mechs are on its level is an argument for my position, not yours. Thank you for supporting my point.

The Veagle can run amounts of ATMS and PPCs that heavy mechs struggle to, and does so without relevant sacrifices. Why should it be able to do that? No other medium does that. How many lights can run a Medium's level of firepower without significant sacrifices? How many heavies can run an assault's level of firepower without significant sacrifices? The Veagle is an outlier. It is too efficient and powerful in proportion to other equivalent mechs, and its doing it in the wrong role. That it is still beaten in absolute terms by some other mechs isn't an argument. 55ton mediums are not supposed to be on the level of assault mechs. None of the others are.

ATMs on other mechs aren't really a problem. Are people complaining about ATM poptarting Huntsmen or Shadowcats? No. Are they complaining about ATM Ebon Jaguars, Sunspiders, Timber Wolves, Summoners, Orion 2's, etc? No. They complain about the Vapor Eagle. Because the problem is the Vapor Eagle.

Poptarting is silly, but again, its not being complained about on pretty much anything else. Its the Vapor Eagle. Ergo, the problem isn't poptarting, its the Vapor Eagle.

The Vapor Eagle needs to be demoted to its proper and intended position as a medium skirmisher. And yes, all medium skirmishers need to get a bit stronger.

Sorry, I'm not interested in any discussion of "role" and "intended position" since we are talking about a PvP game that has always featured comparably strong mechs in various weight classes.

I can support some mild adjustments if it's combined with bringing some other mechs up in power, but I just don't see the veagle as all that big of a problem to deal with in it's current state.

[Heavy Money]

BlaizerP, on 19 February 2021 - 05:41 PM, said:

we are talking about a PvP game that has always featured comparably strong mechs in various weight classes.

Like what else?
Do you have any response to the rest of my post that wasn't about the role?

Edited by Heavy Money, 19 February 2021 - 05:51 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

BlaizerP, on 19 February 2021 - 05:41 PM, said:

I can support some mild adjustments if it's combined with bringing some other mechs up in power, but I just don't see the veagle as all that big of a problem to deal with in it's current state.

You don't see the Veagle as a problem because you're running them and don't want to admit doing so puts you an advantage.

We all see that Veagle collectors badge

[Heavy Money]

VonBruinwald, on 19 February 2021 - 05:55 PM, said:

You don't see the Veagle as a problem because you're running them and don't want to admit doing so puts you an advantage.

We all see that Veagle collectors badge

LOL!



Let's not be unfair. He primarily plays mediums, but we can't just assume he's wracking up these scores because he runs Vapor Eagles. I mean, he's probably a good ol' Kintaro or Griffin pilot. Those are also 55 ton mechs, they can't be that far behind since the Vapor Eagle isn't a problem!

[John Bronco]

Heavy Money, on 19 February 2021 - 05:49 PM, said:

Like what else?
Do you have any response to the rest of my post that wasn't about the role?

The list of mechs that have been at the top of the power curve is long and tawdry, right off the top of my head raven, jenner, stormcrow, cataphract, thunderbolt, timberwolf, warhammer, highlander, kodiak, in addition to the current ones I already mentioned, and whatever was going on in this game in some of those post-beta early years where I wasn't playing.

I already told you what I think about ATMs.

VonBruinwald, on 19 February 2021 - 05:55 PM, said:

You don't see the Veagle as a problem because you're running them and don't want to admit doing so puts you an advantage.

We all see that Veagle collectors badge

Best badge in the game. Yeah, I play the veagle, my favorite build is the 2xLB10/PPC build, and I enjoy it.

That said there are are some other good mediums you can play - wolverine, assassin, phoenix hawk, dervish, vulcan are nice - interestingly, all IS.

Heavy Money, on 19 February 2021 - 06:02 PM, said:

LOL!



Let's not be unfair. He primarily plays mediums, but we can't just assume he's wracking up these scores because he runs Vapor Eagles. I mean, he's probably a good ol' Kintaro or Griffin pilot. Those are also 55 ton mechs, they can't be that far behind since the Vapor Eagle isn't a problem!

Don't stat shame me bro, but yeah, I'm pretty confident talking about the medium class.

[PocketYoda]

Lockheed_, on 18 February 2021 - 09:20 PM, said:

I dont see it as an outlier but more as the standard of how a fun mech should feel.
I am not talking just about fire power, just as what makes playing a mech enjoyable. The ASN-21 is in the same category, less firepower, but with the right agility and speed it's incredibly fun to play. IMO there are just too many mechs in MWO that are just not feeling really good, they are too hot, too cumbersome, terrible hitboxes etc etc. the VGL seems to hit a sweet spot where playing the mech is actually enjoyable and not a compromise that you kinda have to accept or play the same couple of mechs over and over.


That changes quite a bit in higher Tiers, the MCII-B and the Death Strike are pretty much the only MCIIs you will encounter and despite them being powerful they are priority targets and everyone shoots their arms.

That was the primary ones i meant.. While all the MCII are amazing those two are beyond.

[Heavy Money]

Quote

The list of mechs that have been at the top of the power curve is long and tawdry, right off the top of my head raven, jenner, stormcrow, cataphract, thunderbolt, timberwolf, warhammer, highlander, kodiak, in addition to the current ones I already mentioned, and whatever was going on in this game in some of those post-beta early years where I wasn't playing.

Yes, but what is at the top of the power curve now? And put that in proportion to the rest of the weight class.

Quote

Best badge in the game. Yeah, I play the veagle, my favorite build is the 2xLB10/PPC build, and I enjoy it.

That said there are are some other good mediums you can play - wolverine, assassin, phoenix hawk, dervish, vulcan are nice - interestingly, all IS.

How many of those other mechs can run 2xLB10+ERPPC build? That's a 70tonner+ build. Do you not see the problem with that? What did the Vapor Eagle give up to have that much more heavy firepower than those other mediums? Why does it get to have a heavy's level of firepower with a medium's mobility advantages?

Quote

Don't stat shame me bro, but yeah, I'm pretty confident talking about the medium class.

Lol I'm not trying to shame you. Your stats are excellent, and I have no doubt you're better than me in any size of mech. I'm not suggesting your rank only comes from running Vapor Eagles. But we all are gonna think you've got a bit of a bias here

Edited by Heavy Money, 19 February 2021 - 06:17 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

BlaizerP, on 19 February 2021 - 06:11 PM, said:

Best badge in the game.

Let's disagree:


I dare say the eagle would sync nicely with your faction loyalty badge.

[East Indy]

Heavy Money, on 19 February 2021 - 02:12 PM, said:

The solution to this sort of problem is to adjust the set point aka zero point of balance.
At the moment, the default is for mechs to have no quirks. If they are weak for whatever reason, they then get positive quirks. If they are strong for whatever reason, they don't get negative quirks, so they're just left strong.

I might be overlooking things again, but if your play history is as short as it appears on Jarl's, you may find "gigaquirks" from several years ago — powerful boosts giving dozens of 'Mechs niche identity — interesting.

It turns out that most of the design work was done by players, who had no shortage of energy in doing it, and only petered out when PGI reclaimed the responsibility.

[Heavy Money]

East Indy, on 19 February 2021 - 06:28 PM, said:

I might be overlooking things again, but if your play history is as short as it appears on Jarl's, you may find "gigaquirks" from several years ago — powerful boosts giving dozens of 'Mechs niche identity — interesting.

It turns out that most of the design work was done by players, who had no shortage of energy in doing it, and only petered out when PGI reclaimed the responsibility.

Ah, that is interesting. Thanks!

[BTGbullseye]

East Indy, on 19 February 2021 - 06:28 PM, said:

I might be overlooking things again, but if your play history is as short as it appears on Jarl's, you may find "gigaquirks" from several years ago — powerful boosts giving dozens of 'Mechs niche identity — interesting.

It turns out that most of the design work was done by players, who had no shortage of energy in doing it, and only petered out when PGI reclaimed the responsibility.

Ooooh... I like those! They look a lot more fun to play.

As for the VEagle, it's really not as big of a threat as Heavy Money makes it out to be, at least not in any game I've played since its release. More often than not, making the VE pilot think you're going to rush them is enough to get them to scramble for distant cover, and that just takes a good hit or two on them while they're mid-air (rather easy considering how slow they move in air) while moving directly towards them. Has yet to fail me as a primarily Fafnir pilot, but I have had several people in-game comment similarly, including at least two VE pilots that openly admitted they react like that. This is not a lower tier thing either, as both VE pilots were T1 players.

I've even tried this tactic with an MPL Cougar twice recently as a solo-push, and it worked beautifully. (despite me getting obliterated and losing PSR each match, while be one of the least threatening mechs on the battlefield)

Edited by BTGbullseye, 19 February 2021 - 06:46 PM.

[Heavy Money]

BTGbullseye, on 19 February 2021 - 06:45 PM, said:

Ooooh... I like those! They look a lot more fun to play.

As for the VEagle, it's really not as big of a threat as Heavy Money makes it out to be, at least not in any game I've played since its release. More often than not, making the VE pilot think you're going to rush them is enough to get them to scramble for distant cover, and that just takes a good hit or two on them while they're mid-air (rather easy considering how slow they move in air) while moving directly towards them. Has yet to fail me as a primarily Fafnir pilot, but I have had several people in-game comment similarly, including at least two VE pilots that openly admitted they react like that. This is not a lower tier thing either, as both VE pilots were T1 players.

I've even tried this tactic with an MPL Cougar twice recently as a solo-push, and it worked beautifully. (despite me getting obliterated and losing PSR each match, while be one of the least threatening mechs on the battlefield)

Yeah but that tactic also works on other similar mechs that are much weaker.

[BTGbullseye]

Heavy Money, on 19 February 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

Yeah but that tactic also works on other similar mechs that are much weaker.

So it really doesn't matter at all. One "nearly OP mech" can still be countered by a nothing light that dies immediately... I don't see how it's OP if it can be so easily countered.

[Heavy Money]

BTGbullseye, on 19 February 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

So it really doesn't matter at all. One "nearly OP mech" can still be countered by a nothing light that dies immediately... I don't see how it's OP if it can be so easily countered.

Then surely you have no objection to doubling the damage of LRMs and ATMs as they can also be easily countered by 1 light? Or maybe you're ignoring the wider context of the game, and not acknowledging proportional power differences?

[RickySpanish]

300 minimum engine rating? Lol. That's top tier bollocks right there.

[Heavy Money]

RickySpanish, on 19 February 2021 - 09:39 PM, said:

300 minimum engine rating? Lol. That's top tier bollocks right there.

And a medium running 70ton+ loadouts isn't?