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Intel Gathering: Weapons Balance Pass 1


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#21 evilelrond

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:05 PM

i dont play all that much anymore, so take this with a grain of salt. this is just what i would like to see to bring back the old playstyles i miss.

buffs
srm lineup (clan and is) spread decrease
small pulse (clan and IS) dmg increase
IS LPL dmg increase
IS ppc lineup heat decrease
is regular medium laser heat and cooldown decrease
lbx lineup spread decrease
regular ac 5, 10, and 20 (clan and is) cooldown decrease
ac20 ghost heat limit increased by 1

nerfs
mpl (clan and is) cooldown or duration increase
erppc (IS AND CLAN) minor velocity and range decrease
heavy laser lineup damage decrease
atm/mrm/ssrm/cssrm spread increase
cssrm range decrease
lrm lineup (clan and is) spread increase
clan uac heat increase
ac2 cooldown increase
rac dps decrease
machine gun lineup (clan and is) crit rate decrease (clans need a much higher crit rate nerf than IS, as they can boat way more, and they are 50% lighter)
machine gun lineup (clan and IS) dps decrease

if you could increase mobility too it would be great, with a focus on improving the turn speed and torso twist speed on mechs that have classically been used for brawling.

also, as you may infer, i play a lot more IS than clan, so there may be other buffs and nerfs on the clan side that i didnt cover and may be unaware of

#22 CHH Badkarma

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:06 PM

View PostVoice of Kerensky, on 18 February 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

By the way, I am inclined to support my comrades who call for a more sober approach to Gauss rifles.
They have very little health. Their crit chance is more than high (especially the Clan GR and IS HGR), they die very quickly if there is no armor. But tell me WHY do they explode? What's the logic? The GR has already received its crit, it is not dangerous longer. The most powerful weapon has ALREADY been disabled, WHY need explode it, tearing off half of the fur along with the remnants of weaker weapons?



if I remember PGI's logic at the time, it was the stored energy in the capacitors being catastrophically(because of their own self implemented charge mechanic) released. Also, because reasons.

Edited by CHH Badkarma, 18 February 2021 - 08:08 PM.


#23 SPNKRGrenth

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:09 PM

I won't use specific numbers for the most part, because people will argue those to death to the end of time.

Flamers are currently horribly implemented and need a complete rework, full stop. Every MW game has flamers be an actual usable weapon, except for MWO.

All IS PPCs need love, mostly in the heat department. They really only get used on the few mechs quirked for them, which is very telling. Clan ER PPC could use some tweaking too, but is at least usable.

Streaks. Separate how Streaks lock-on from how LRMs lock-ons got heavily nerfed, return the wide lock-on angle to streaks.

UACs. Jamming, needs extra code to prevent jams on first double tap, and prevent back to back jamming. Shouldn't be able to jam anymore often than every other doubletap. Or just a full UAC rework that makes the doubletap feel like a proper part of the design, instead of a frustrating afterthought.

ECM. Remove the skill nodes, set it to 60%. It has been said, and agreed, for years, that 75% is just too much. The current nerf only hurts trial mechs by making ECM meaningless without both nodes, but still too strong with both nodes. If skill tree is an absolute must for some reason, have just 1 skill node that gives +10%, and if that's the case, make ECM default 50%, so the node makes it 60%.

IS LRMS. They really should do some damage under minimum range, even if it's only 1/4 damage.

#24 Clay Endfield

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:15 PM

Light Gauss should have a 2 second cooldown or no Charge Time. The combination of the 2.5 cooldown and the Charge Time ruins Light Gauss DPS compared to every other tonnage comparable ballistic.

Light PPCs should have 3 second cooldowns; otherwise PPCs and Heavy PPCs completely walk all over Light PPC DPS. Snub Nose PPCs should generate 8 heat, not 10. Standard PPCs have 2x the range and only generate 9.5 heat. These should provide some mechanical diversity between the various PPC options and encourage more build diversity.

PPC particle effects should not have collision; PPC projectiles are massive and frequently clip on invisible walls or surfaces that ACs have clearance over.

LRMs were recently altered to incentivize players into establishing line of sight to improve lethality and overalls performance; I personally feel as though this change didn't do enough to incentivize line of sight play styles. For non-line of sight, LRMs should suffer a dramatic loss of velocity and accuracy, increasing missile spread to the point were half the missiles fired splash harmlessly across the ground rather than connect with their target.

RAC-5s can't compare to RAC-2s practicality; plus RAC-5s suffer from projectile spread and increased spool up time, crippling the weapon system even more; not to mention ammo consumption per second/ammo per DPS/ammo provided per ton are all heavily skewed in favor of RAC-2s. RAC-5s need more ammo per ton, less heat build up, and longer ramp up time before Jamming can occur.

Rocket Launchers: At this point, an SRM-2 + a 1/2 ton of ammo is a better option. Remove the mid range penalty (yes, let us devastate mechs with a well placed point blank Rocket Salvo), and make it so Ammo Skills increase shot yield by 1 per skill point; permitting for multiple uses of a single Rocket Launcher (a maximum of 3 shots) I recommend a ten to fifteen second cooldown between shots to prevent Rocket Spam and to punish poorly placed shots.

Edited by Clay Endfield, 18 February 2021 - 09:43 PM.


#25 Heavy Money

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:20 PM

Thanks for doing this! It'd be helpful if you could tell us more about what sorts of changes are actually possible. For example, many weapon stats are fixed due to the lore/tabletop values. If you're open to deviating in favor of balance, that'd be good to know.

My overall impression of the current state of weapons is that there are several types which are sub-optimal and feel left behind, then there are several that are solid. Some are obvious choices over others. I do not think any are really overpowered though. My thoughts on some areas below:

An important thing beyond the weapon balance itself would be to improve the Quirk info. Its often unclear if a quirk applies only to a specific weapon, or a whole family.

Autocannons:
Most ACs are in a good place. The 2's and 10's have very solid roles. 20's are more limited due to range but work. 5's are a bit left behind. LB's are a bit too restricted due to their slot size. (It'd be really nice to get snub-nosed ACs at some point with reduced weight and range so that lights and mediums can actually use them.)

The AC 5 problem: (also applies to the LB5-X and UAC5)
AC5's of each sort fall into a bad spot. AC2's are more efficient per ton and have better range. So if you want range, you run AC2's. AC10's have similar damage per ton, and much higher DPS, and their range still isn't terrible. AC5's are left without a role. The problem is easy to see when looking at Inner Sphere AC of each size:

AC/2: 2.78 DPS, .46 DPS/ton, 720 range.
AC/5: 3.01 DPS, .38 DPS/ton, 620 range.
AC/10: 4.44 DPS, .37 DPS/ton, 450 range.

The AC2 is so far ahead in damage efficiency and range that its the best option unless you have very limited hardpoints. The AC/10 is way ahead in burst damage. The AC/5 ought to have dps/ton in the middle to match the rest of it being in the middle, but its not. Its weight, heatpersecond/ton and slot use are in the middle, but not the DPS. Improving its fire rate would address this issue. It should probably actually have MORE efficiency/ton than the other weapons as there are big advantages to the high burst of the AC10 and the extreme range of the AC2. As the AC5 is stuck in the middle without either, it should have the most overall efficiency. So an improvement to its fire rate and also perhaps an improvement to Heat would help. More ammo per ton would also help.

Clan Regular vs Ultra Autocannons:
Regular clan autocannons are strictly inferior to their Ultra autocannon versions, and to their Inner Sphere counterparts due to their burst fire. They are almost never used as they have no real advantage in their cost or efficiency. IS pays significantly more for their Ultras in tonnage, slots, and heat. Regular IS ACs are worthwhile because of their pinpoint damage, despite their worse DPS. Clan ACs, except for the AC2, are not. In many cases, they pay more in slots for the regular version! This seems to be backwards.

Regular Clan ACs should be about efficient sustained fire, whereas their Ultras are about burst damage. They are slightly ahead in Cooldown and a decent amount ahead in heat. Improve these even more, reduce their slot size to the same as the UACs, and perhaps increase their ammo/ton.

LB2 and LB5 slot sizes:
LB2's are a nice weapon for both Clan and IS, but generally AC2's are better because they don't spread. This outweighs the LB2's better heat. The difference in slot cost is very high, especially for Inner Sphere, and limits LB2 use for no particular reason. IS LB2's are 4 slots, whereas AC2's are 1. It would be just fine for LB2's to be 2 slots for both IS and Clan versions.

IS LB5's are also paying an extra slot over their AC counterparts. Why? Their better heat doesn't really justify it due to them being a long range weapon with spread. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen an IS LB5-X used.

IS LB20-X and AC20 slot size:
The slot size of the IS LB20 is 11, which means it cannot ever fit into an Arm, and can only be fit into torsos with Standard engines. This means they hardly ever get used. Meanwhile, the Clan LB20 is 9 slots but 2 tons lighter and only slightly hotter. It can fit in arms just fine and isn't breaking the game.

Reducing IS LB20's to 10 slots would make it much more usable as you can then run it in a side torso with a Light Engine, or in Arms without Arm actuators (King Crab, Nightstar). Reducing it to 9 would let it fit into arms that have actuators (throw the Marauder II a bone), and be run with XL Engines. This is also unlikely to break anything. If it is reduced to 9, it could even go up in weight by 1 ton or have worse heat. But at 14tons already, this isn't really necessary. Non-Ultra IS AC20's could also move to 9 slots to let people actually use them.

Rotary Autocannons:
RAC2's are nice. RAC5's have nice damage, but you don't see them much. They tend to be passed over in favor of UACs instead. They need a small buff somewhere. Heat would probably be good, and perhaps slightly faster Ramp down.

RACs of both types also seem to mess up firepower and heat displays in the mech lab due to being DPS weapons.

It would be great if Cooldown skills/quirks improved RAC DPS (machine guns too.) If this happened, a slight reduction to base DPS would be appropriate (especially for RAC2's.)

Light Gauss:
The ammo efficiency and range is really nice, but it just doesn't do enough. It doesn't have the large pinpoint damage that regular guass does while still being difficult to use. AC2's do its long ranged job better. And its still too heavy to really fit on anything. Reducing its weight so you can actually use it would be nice. It could go down several tons without breaking anything. Alternatively, improve the cooldown even more.

PPCs:
ERPPCs are too obvious a choice and they're everywhere (and not only because Clans only have them to choose from). They especially dominate higher skill play. A very slight nerf in effeciency to them would be nice, probably best in the form of more heat. Extreme long range should have a good balance between AC2's, Light Gauss, ERLarge Lasers, and ERPPCs. But it does not because of the burst damage and infinite ammo.
The other types of PPC are all left behind.

Regular PPCs are hardly used because ER's are just better. Regular PPCs should beat ERPPCs when within their range bracket. And they do on paper due to their better heat. But in practice they don't because nobody runs them. Their worse range and deadzone just isn't worth it. The solution is to make them even more efficient. Give them a slightly better Cooldown and even less heat!

Light PPCs have decent DPS/ton, but their efficiency just isn't good enough. You're just better off running ER Medium or Large lasers. Like AC5's and Light Gauss, they are losing out on pinpoint burst damage and not really gaining any efficiency in the trade. Reduce their heat and cooldown, and reduce their deadzone size from 90 to 60 or even 45.

Snub-Nose PPCs are just terrible. Again, they just aren't efficient. Why is their heat even worse than regular PPCs? Cooldown is fine, but make them cooler.

Heavy PPCs, unlike the other variants, actually get used. But pretty much only by Poptarts looking for big alpha strikes. This is fine, but it'd be nice to see them get a little bit more play. Like the others, a slight buff to heat would help.

Long Range Missiles:
Lots of people like to whine about LRMs, but I think they are fine for the most part. I would like to see them reward direct fire even more than they already do though. Direct fire currently gives bonuses to spread and velocity. Make these larger, and decrease indirect spread and velocity by the same amount. This will also decrease whining because that's mostly about massed indirect fire.

Artemis also needs work. Due to adding a slot and ton per launcher, its just not worth using on smaller launchers. In fact, its a noob trap that tricks people into running terrible loadouts. It also hurts mixed loadouts that just want to add a few LRMs badly. Make the tonnage increase .25tons/5LRMs instead, giving them all the weight efficiency of a LRM20. Remove the extra slot cost from LRM5's and 10's.

One of the main issues with LRMs is that they are very effective at low skill levels, but then disappear at higher ones due to a low skill ceiling. It would be nice to make it so there's a bit more to them. Improving their direct fire capabilities is part of that. Further improvements could also be good. Reduce their base stats slightly, but then make it so that holding a target longer (with direct line of sight) improves speed/tracking/spread above what it is now. Let TAG and Artemis increase this effect even more (including other people holding tags.) Ways to reduce minimum range would also help. Having +range skills reduce minimum range, or perhaps also targetting computers, holding on target, tag, artemis, etc.

Nobody is complaining about LRMs when used as direct fire or upclose weapons. So give people more reasons to use them there, and less reasons to sit behind cover and everything will be more interesting.

IS LRMs:
They're just too heavy for what they do. Clan LRMs can be used as secondary weapons to some exent due to their weight (not that this is particularly good) but IS LRMs are just too heavy and clunky. I understand their weight is fixed by the Lore, so give them something else to make them more worthwhile. This could be even more velocity/spread over clans, or even just better heat.

Lasers:
Lasers are mostly in a good place, except for some of the small lasers. Lots of other people have talked about those so I'll skip it.

Clan Heavy Medium Lasers could use some help. Their slot size means they are difficult to fit into many loadouts. And they are up against the Clan ER Medium laser. Almost all loadouts choose to run ER Mediums and more heatsinks instead of Heavy Mediums. If you try to run Medium Heavy laser vomit builds, you'll generally find that you run out of slots while still having tonnage left unused, and an unimpressive Heat Rating. Heavy Mediums are already difficult to use due to range and burn time, and suboptimal for laser vomit builds due to a Ghost Heat group of 4. Having them also take 2 slots is unnecessary. Change them to 1 slot! And reduce the Heavy Large from 3 to 2 while you're at it for the same reason.

Streak SRMs:
Not terrible, but not really worth it. They really just aren't efficient enough. Slightly better cooldown and heat would help.

AMS:
It would be nice to see AMS used more often. Generally you only see it on the Kitfox, Nova, and Corsair as they can run a lot of it. But it'd be nice if it was more worthwhile for regular mechs to bring 1. Generally people don't bother, because if you bring one and other people don't, its not going to do enough to matter. Increasing its efficiency would help. Raise the damage and ammo per ton slightly, and perhaps even raise the effectiveness of the AMS Overload skills. Or give a lot more mechs a second AMS hardpoint.

Laser AMS is way too hot. Any amount of extra heat is a big problem, but these are just crazy. Even just 2 can shut you down while under sustained fire. Reduce their heat by 25-50%, and perhaps even reduce their weight by .5tons. The heat really is that huge of a penalty.

Also, it is currently impossible to switch off only 1 type of AMS. Since they show as different rows on your weapon group HUD, you'd think you could select just the Laser and toggle them off. But when you do, it shuts off ALL your AMS. It should be possible to only shutoff one type.

Targetting Computers:
Some loadouts will run a 1ton one, but that's pretty much just Laser builds that can't fit another double heatsink. Some long range specialists will run a big one because they've run out of weapon hardpoints. But overall, they don't do enough to be worth taking over anything else. Make them do slightly more of what they already do. And it would be great if they actually helped missile target lock time, if for no other reason than to end the confusion about it! (Or add to their tooltip that they do not.) Also they should help LBX projectile speed (but not crit.) Perhaps they could help LBX and Missile spread even? And we could save some skillpoints if they gave Advanced Zoom.

Okay that's enough.

#26 D U N E

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:21 PM

. . . I just want to say for consideration, please only take valid advice from people that actually know the meta to a good effect. I have seen so many "solutions" in other areas that are completely misguided and unaware of the entire games scope. It's great you want to take community advice, just please make sure you are listening to the correct people that actually know how to play the game. They are more likely to see what can be OP/completely crap - which will help with fun balancing.

#27 Virtuebane

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:38 PM

My suggestion will not be liked.. but here goes.

1. All PPC's need to do a bit more damage or have their heat reduced.... one or the other.
They should also disrupt the targeting system of whatever they hit... LRM and Streak Targeting, ECM , Stealth, and
target gathering and target lock so noone else uses it while targeting mech is disrupted...

2 Machine Guns, (all of them) need to only do damage when the target mechs outer armor is breached (per location) leave the crit and damage otherwise the same but if the mech you are shooting still has viable armor then either no damage to the location or cut damage by 99%. if the the location is into internal then normal damage and crit rates apply.

3. get rid of stealth. and/or allow ALL mechs ECM at 2 tons if no hardpoint (2 slots)

4. more ghost heat or targeting failures for firing more than 2 weapons at the same time. either chain fire and be fine, or alpha and shutdown and most likely miss your target (or get really close) or fire 3 or more weapons at once and miss your target. (make firing twin gauss a complete crap shoot when it comes to hitting the target). This includes all Missile systems

[redacted]

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 19 February 2021 - 12:30 AM.


#28 MookieDog

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 08:58 PM

1. LBX-20 is too crit heavy. As above, reduce by one crit space from 11 to 10.

2. Laser AMS not feasible. You can blow yourself up by not moving and not firing any weapons.

3. RAC's should NOT jam before the first round is fired.

4. I am extremely wary of clan laser vomit. Having grown up in IS in faction warfare and seeing twelve Madcats, all armed the same way: 3 C-ERLL's left torso shoulder mount, two C-ERMED's each arm with the last C-ERMED in the left torso. That is a 57 pin point alpha- 1 Click with no ghost heat.. not that we all don't hit override to begin with, but that's another story. Add to that the recommendation of IS level of cool down nodes from .6 to .75.. changes like those are some of the many reasons I stopped playing faction warfare.

Now.. those changes in quick play... meh.. I am cool with those.

For me it comes down to the issue of time. A match goes wrong in quick play.. no issue, get a bit heated, on to the next one. Very rarely does a match go to fifteen minutes. On the other hand, being humiliated in Faction Warfare for 30 minutes, I don't need to play MWO, and more importantly: the wallet stays closed.

Edited by MookieDog, 18 February 2021 - 09:02 PM.


#29 dario03

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 09:03 PM

View PostKrasnopesky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:16 PM, said:

I will give my feedback soon.

First edit

Inner Sphere weapons that are currently under-performing and need a buff:
  • IS Small Laser - Increase damage and range
  • IS ER Small Laser - Increase damage and range
  • IS Small Pulse Laser - Increase damage and range
  • IS Snub Nose PPC - Significantly reduce heat
  • IS PPC - Outclassed by ERPPC, reduce heat and allow 3 without ghost heat
  • IS Light PPC - Significantly reduce heat and remove ghost heat
  • IS Light Machine Gun - Increase damage, ammo and range
  • Light Gauss Rifle - Buff damage, unlink from ghost heat so you can shoot 2 LGR + 1 or 2 PPCs
  • IS Laser AMS - Reduce heat
Clan Weapons that are currently under-performing and need a buff:
  • Clan Micro Pulse - Increase range and damage
  • Clan Small Pulse - Increase range and damage
  • Clan Light Machine Gun - Increase damage, ammo and range
  • Clan Laser AMS - Reduce heat
There are more weapons that require a buff, but these are the most important in my opinion.



I mostly agree with this. I would maybe add heavy large lasers and (c)lb5x. Light machine guns could use a bump to .75/s and more ammo, probably more ammo for all mgs.



I would like to see lock ons rebalanced and the way they work get reworked. I think fully doing that could take some time, so for now some simple changes like

ATM - make them less feast or famine in the range brackets and dependent on amount of enemy ams. So something like buff vs ams but change damage so its nerfed in the close range bracket but better at range. So change damage to like 2/1.6/1.2 but a big missile health buff so a few ams doesn't destroy all the missiles at range.



LRM - Missile health increase but lower velocity and/or damage. Similar to ATM, less feast or famine by buffing vs ams but lowering damage either direct or indirectly.



SSRM - Lower damage and cooldown so alpha is lower but dps is about the same. Probably drop the alpha by a lot, like ~35%. Buffing them vs bigger mechs, and nerfing vs lighter by doing something like spread based on target size or tracking strength not being perfect would be better. But for a simple change this could work for now. Probably lower range on clan version too.

#30 Sixpackseven

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 09:05 PM

I had a big list. Then I read the Gulag proposal. I would say go with what they have done. Looks like something I would like to play. Also please make assaults and heavies agile again. If you can escape it increases TTK in a good way.

#31 SoulRcannon

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 09:10 PM

The gulag's efforts here (Navid's post) are on point, but I'm not sure it's compatible with PGI's approach to their passes. I mean, like the community balance document before it it's an exhaustive list. Remember how that got handwaved away? Not that I speak for them, but I can't help but think that PGI probably wanna go with a "how do we do this in as few moves as possible" mindset because of how we got here. It's been years... Will they listen now?

Bear in mind with their (the gulag's) tables, these changes in their view come hand in hand with the other things in the proposal, a more universal application of rescaling and agility come to mind as things that increase TTK to counter any perceived reduction in that from the values on their weapon spreadsheet. So try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, here.

So having said that, I'll work on the premise that as few changes as possible are going to be implemented.

IS non-ER PPC's as a family all need love, changes to carve niches for them to excel at. IS standard PPC's could be cooler or have +1 HSL limit like Light PPC's do now. And minimum range isn't implemented for them in MW5, damage drop off might suit non-ER/Snub peeps better. And snubs could be a scooch cooler and have a longer optimal range (360m) and still be a questionable choice. And Light PPC's? Refer to the community balance proposal.

Clan pulse lasers need intuitive (double optimal) max ranges. Small pulses (IS/Clan) need to be half un-gutted (baby steps). Large pulses (IS/Clan) could have some damage back. Flamers with less heat, more dps?

Gauss rifles (all IS/Clan) would like more health. Light Gauss could be decoupled from Gauss/PPC HSL group. RAC5's could be cooler, or have a shorter spin-up time. LMG's could be buffed up a bit. And be bold, give the IS AC20 +1 HSL already.

ATM's didn't need that many velocity buffs, and might need to be more comprehensively re-thought out (like if you thought to nerf their damage, velocity, and spread maybe remove the min range, too). Should Streak SRM's be bad against everything that isn't a light mech, and should they be that good vs light mechs? I'd trade in some of the latter for improvements to the former, personally.

Edited by SoulRcannon, 18 February 2021 - 09:18 PM.


#32 The6thMessenger

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 09:19 PM

View PostSoulRcannon, on 18 February 2021 - 09:10 PM, said:

The gulag's efforts here (Navid's post) are on point, but I'm not sure it's compatible with PGI's approach to their passes. I mean, like the community balance document before it it's an exhaustive list. Remember how that got handwaved away? Not that I speak for them, but I can't help but think that PGI probably wanna go with a "how do we do this in as few moves as possible" mindset because of how we got here. It's been years... Will they listen now?


If that's their approach, then they should just forget the revitalization effort. Where we are right now is exactly because PGI has been lazy and too cautious. If they are going to just do the same BS they were doing before, I don't see any point in continuing because it's all just wasted effort, we will inevitably just get trapped on another hole. A different hole that we have right now, but still a ****** hole.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 February 2021 - 09:56 PM.


#33 LordNothing

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 10:00 PM

non ultra 5-class autocannons need some buffs. especially the lb5s require spread buffs.
small lasers - why? give me a reason to use them instead of ersmalls.
lppc - 3-3.5s cooldown.
snppc - add 2 points splash (same mechanic from the cerppc).
allow 3x lgauss charging.
make lams run a bit cooler or be more effective against missiles.
make narc not instantly die when used against ams protected targets.
make uac20s suck less.
reduce the spinup time on racs, especially the rac5. their linked heat is enough to keep them from getting too powerful.
buff hmg ammo capacity. especially for the 1 ton is version. perhaps also a small damage buff.
rockets - make them suck less. other mechanics have been suggested, stat tweaks, min range removal.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 February 2021 - 11:43 PM.


#34 Voice of Kerensky

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 10:05 PM

View PostCHH Badkarma, on 18 February 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:



if I remember PGI's logic at the time, it was the stored energy in the capacitors being catastrophically(because of their own self implemented charge mechanic) released. Also, because reasons.


Yes, indeed, everything is so. But only it seems to me, at least you and I see that this explains the mechanism of the explosion, but not the reason why they introduced this explosion.

#35 TheUltimateGhost

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 10:11 PM

View PostD U N E, on 18 February 2021 - 08:21 PM, said:

. . . I just want to say for consideration, please only take valid advice from people that actually know the meta to a good effect. I have seen so many "solutions" in other areas that are completely misguided and unaware of the entire games scope. It's great you want to take community advice, just please make sure you are listening to the correct people that actually know how to play the game. They are more likely to see what can be OP/completely crap - which will help with fun balancing.

fully agree with this, luckily it might be a bit more easier now that all those dudes are labeled literally "Worlds 2020 Gold Champ"...

anyhow, my part on balance: (won't go into a ton of detail here)

small lasers (SPL, ERSL and SL) need a buff

lams needs less heat

lrms and atms need decreased dmg with (at leas for atms) increased missile health

streak alpha is waaay too deadly for light mechs

is mpl duration needs to be increased ~20% imho

the current comp meta is very stale and devolves mostly into just IS MPL spam for lights at a high level imo

Edit: the C-ERPPC spam being very good in comp isn't too much of an issue and if it were grounds for a nerf, would probably ruin the weapon for casual players.

Edited by TheUltimateGhost, 18 February 2021 - 10:15 PM.


#36 Laser Kiwi

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 10:47 PM

Hey Navid made MW5 better, maybe you guys could follow his ideas and make mwo better, even though i really don't care one way or the other, i'll still be a potato

#37 Itsacon

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 11:32 PM

Anyone saying 'remove the gauss charge mechanic', obviously wasn't around before that was introduced.

A high damage, high velocity, long range weapon with pin-point accuracy and no heat.

Do you really need me to tell you wat the meta was before that mechanic was introduced?

It was basically the only time in the game when I saw aimbots active with any frequency.

#38 LordNothing

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 11:41 PM

View PostD U N E, on 18 February 2021 - 08:21 PM, said:

. . . I just want to say for consideration, please only take valid advice from people that actually know the meta to a good effect. I have seen so many "solutions" in other areas that are completely misguided and unaware of the entire games scope. It's great you want to take community advice, just please make sure you are listening to the correct people that actually know how to play the game. They are more likely to see what can be OP/completely crap - which will help with fun balancing.


yes and no. while they do have a lot of insight into how to build effective mechs, i dont think listening to only that group is the right way to do things. they can be rigid in their thinking, especially when something threatens to break one of their effective metas. im not sure they are any good at finding places for things that that you would find on sub-meta builds. i want to take weapons that nobody (meta players or otherwise) wants to use and find effective niches for them that can be meta in their own right.

there are certainly player types you dont want to listen to. like new players who dont have a lot of experience, the chronically bad (like 10k games and still t4/5).

Edited by LordNothing, 18 February 2021 - 11:46 PM.


#39 Martaloc

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 11:51 PM

I think the clan mechs in general need some love too.
The Inner Sphere has to many adventages:
Better lasers, lesser burntime, less heat , incredible quirks which help on laservomit builds -10% all heat to all weapon,-10 % on Er lasers ,medium laser or -10% on all laser.
Better rockets, on IS side the lrm biggest adventage that they shoot all lrms in a massive block so AMS has very little effect, from a IS lrm 20 even fully speced youre lucky when you can destroy 2-4 missiles per salvo. MRMS godlike weapons, when you have atleast missile hardpoint on youre mech equip the bigest MRMlauncher on it plus a couple mediumlasers or on Shadowhawks just mount a MRM20 and MRM30 both of them has the same cooldown so always shoot both at once and youre good to go.
PPC's : IS have more variety and all has better velocity for no reason plus always better quirks, less heat and much more velocity cuz the IS warriors pull the triger harder on joystick.
Clans:They pull always the shorter.
Lasers: the clan Er smal laser has bigger burn time with full laser duration nods as the IS ER large laser and generate more heat than a IS medium laser, the other lasers much worse , perfectly balanced.....Any new players just wonder that clan assault mech shutdown after the first lasersalvo with 25 doubleheatsinks but on IS mechs 18 double heatsinks more than enough.....
Rockets: even the smalest clan rocketlaunchers has so big spread that literaly damage one Atlas from shoulder to shoulder, plus clan lrms shoots in a unique PGI pattern , they shoot as Soviet Katyushas in very long line so AMS laughing annihilate even the 20 launchers, ATM as same plus extra bonus from PGI the minimum range which newer existed anywhere, only sheer malice that they doing this, cuz IS MRMs all fine ,MRM was between SRM and MRM but PGI overbuffed his range and velocity so you can use as main waeponsystem.
PPC's: only one type the ER PPC for extralarge heat, bad velocity and usualy without quirks and mediocre damage, thats all.
IS won again.
But atleast when one a clan mech has many lasers and has a single rocketlauncher or a pair machinegun PGI geneorusly give them the extrasuperüberbonus missile cooldown and machinegunrof quirks cuz thye are better than the minus heat quirks.
Ah ,and when you play clans you can forget the armor and structuralquirks too.
When you play clanmech usually youre first 2-3 salvo from any weapon not even reach the IS mech armor just the idioticly big bonusarmor from the armorquirks.

All of this very strange cuz all mechs from all factions are PGI product and PGI sell them for hard cash.
But when one side so weak i dont know how they want sell any.

In my opnion now the time that both side should get the same treatment.
Same laserburn , same missile patterns, same ppc velocity and same ballitsic( yes IS have the same range and velocity as the clans in Battletech, dont know why nerfed the IS mechs PGI in these only case).
I want see on all clanmechs armorquirks to cuz they all the same bulky and big targets the IS mechs to.
My Supernovas and Kodiaks extremly suffer cuz they very big targets and have very bad hitbox, but Fafnirs and Annihilators to but they are IS mech interestingly have armor and structuralquirks .
I want see that clans can have the ability shoot 3 large or largepulsuslaser to, on some assaults as the Supernova B and C the ability shoot 4 at once cuz this is they original loadout , only PGI punish these all energy mech with the law of two largelasers at once.
Yes clans clans needs very serious balance rework because as i read not even the forummembers recommend these mechs to anybody. They are all bad they said and i was restrained when i summarized what they write.

Edited by Martaloc, 18 February 2021 - 11:55 PM.


#40 MyriadDigits

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:02 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 18 February 2021 - 11:41 PM, said:


yes and no. while they do have a lot of insight into how to build effective mechs, i dont think listening to only that group is the right way to do things. they can be rigid in their thinking, especially when something threatens to break one of their effective metas. im not sure they are any good at finding places for things that that you would find on sub-meta builds. i want to take weapons that nobody (meta players or otherwise) wants to use and find effective niches for them that can be meta in their own right.


Spoken like somebody who hasn't even glanced at the proposals from said players.

Totally asking to nerf UAC5, UAC10, and ATMs to protect that effective meta. Definitely asking for buffs to LPPC, LGR, RAC5, LAMS, LB2, LB5, all the cACs because those are definitely the pinnacle of the meta.





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