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Intel Gathering: Weapons Balance Pass 1


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#41 Bows3r

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:03 AM

The first changes to weapons I would like to see?

IS:

SPL - Bump up damage by 1 point.
AC20 - Massively increase velocity, decrease cooldown by 0.75 seconds.
Rockets - Increase the min range slightly, buff the heat slightly, reduce the slot count for Rocket 20 to 2 slots and Rocket 15 to one slot, dramatically buff Rocket 10 spread. IF possible, buff rockets spread at range by 20-30% across the board while not touching their spread at closer ranges (~150m). (Ideally an inverse cone).
ERPPC - Lower heat.
PPC - Make min range a damage drop off like clan LRM's, preferably linear. Increase ghost heat limit to 3, lower heat slightly.
Snub PPC - Increase ghost heat limit to 3, lower heat substantially, decrease cooldown.
LMG - Increase damage.
Light PPC - Remove ghost heat limit entirely.
Laser AMS - Significantly lower heat.

Clan:

Large Pulse - 2x max range, increase heat slightly.
Medium Pulse - 2x max range, increase heat slightly.
Small pulse - Increase damage by 1 point
LMG - Increase damage.
Micro Pulse - Increase range and damage.
Laser AMS - Significantly lower heat.


Very glad to see a renewed interest in the health of the game!

EDIT: If interested, I can provide detailed reasonings for every suggestion.

Edited by Bows3r, 19 February 2021 - 11:00 AM.


#42 Appuagab

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:04 AM

LBX-20 should occupy less slots than its AC/UAC counterparts. It doesn't matter if it's not tabletop accurate, it's not a video game adaptation of the tabletop game, it's shooter/sim spinoff.

Flamers are a meme weapon. Just give them reasonable DPS and slight heat application as a bonus gimmick.

Jump Jets need to be unnerfed. Especially on heavier mechs. Useless jump jets skill tree is not a solution.

Replace Gauss charge with slight firing delay and give projectiles tracers (fancy Quake-like spiral?) because sneaky snipers and poorly telegraphed tons of damage are annoying. Maybe tweak stats (less damage, faster cooldown) if you're so afraid of massive pinpoint alphas. Charge mechanic is incredibly clunky and it's just unpleasant to use in a game that runs so poorly and involves so many buttons.

Light Gauss and Light PPC are very underwhelming. Too heavy for lighter mechs, too weak for heavier mechs.

LRMs need complete rework. Indirect fire is cancer and must be gone or at least be possible only with tag/narc assistance. No game should ever reward braindead hold one button to win playstyle. I'm saying this as someone who frequently uses LRM boat for easy event score or c-bill farming. This garbage ruins the hole game. It would be tolerable if people designing maps were aware of how the game plays but instead we're getting tiny rocks and houses that can't provide proper protection from raining chromosomes unless you hug walls as tight as you can (and it still doesn't always help). LRMs are major contributor to MWO's flaccid "peek around the corner and clog passages" gameplay.

#43 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:09 AM

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#44 The6thMessenger

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:28 AM

View PostMyriadDigits, on 19 February 2021 - 12:02 AM, said:

Spoken like somebody who hasn't even glanced at the proposals from said players.


I watched the Gulag, I based my approach on some of their proposals in the Powerpoint. I swear I can't find the powerpoint in the Discord. It's on youtube though.

I liked their proposal of increasing LL GH to 4 while ERLL has increased damage, their approach of increasing LGR damage to 10 but CD to 4.0s, I liked their approach of making UACs more reliable at the cost of longer CD, I liked their approach of removing the bone-tracking from SSRMs to give Lights better chance, I liked their approach of increasing PPC GH from 2 to 3. Etc.

It's just there's just some nitpicks, likewise just fundamental disagreements on the approach. Some didn't go far enough, and I think would far benefit the game if the problematic mechanics were just directly addressed from the root.

Like the UAC being more reliable from 17% Jam to 14% Jam, but with adjusted longer cooldown. I agree with the direction, I just disagree how far enough. It could be at 0% Jam chance, and the entire UAC lineup is just balanced around the double-tap instead. This would make it less reliant on RN-Gesus of having basically 2x of the ACs for just +1 Slot and Ton 83% of the time, and would allow us to properly calibrate the output of UACs with better certainty.

I disagree of making LPPCs balanced around infinite amount of LPPCs, because that means the weapon is instead calibrated on a high amount of weapons instead of low ones when lights the target demographic, could only really carry so much.

While I agree of weakening the effects of SSRMs versus lights, at that case I fail to see the worth of IS Streaks compared to the Clan Streaks, because the CSSRMs have range advantage, the IS-SRM do not. To ones that could make the shot using the Standard SRMs that yields better grouping and higher damage/missile, I fail to see the point Streaking in an IS Mech. You need to lock that prevents shots on demand, it has reduced damage/missile, has increased cooldown, increased tonnage -- I might as well just Standard SRMs.

There's a LOT that I haven't incorporated from their proposal, but I tried to address the major ones.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 February 2021 - 12:34 AM.


#45 Itsacon

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:34 AM

View PostVoice of Kerensky, on 18 February 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

By the way, I am inclined to support my comrades who call for a more sober approach to Gauss rifles.
They have very little health. Their crit chance is more than high (especially the Clan GR and IS HGR), they die very quickly if there is no armor. But tell me WHY do they explode? What's the logic? The GR has already received its crit, it is not dangerous longer. The most powerful weapon has ALREADY been disabled, WHY need explode it, tearing off half of the mech along with the remnants of weaker weapons?


The Gauss rifle is designed to be a glass cannon. The explosion mechanic is also there in TT, if I'm not mistaken.

Compared to an AC20, it has the following upsides:
  • 83% less heat
  • 244% range
  • 30% fewer critslots
  • 25% more ammo/t
  • Ammo doesn't explode.
The downsides:
  • 7% more weight
  • 25% less damage/hit
  • 25% more cooldown

The cooldown and damage are easily offset by the extra range, as it means you can start hammering your enemy long before he can even damage you.

The extra weight is offset by the fact that with a Gauss rifle, you can pack an XL. The explosion makes is so that that is not a 'free' choice.

Remember that all these things were implemented before light engines (or even Clan XLs) were in the game, and the maps were much smaller. Play Forest Colony Classic, and you'll see that a well positioned Gauss rifle can cover almost the entire map.

(dual) Gauss snipers were an extremely dominant species back then. The charge mechanic forced them to have a certain skill level, the explosions make it a high-risk, high-reward loadout. As a balancing mechanic, it worked pretty well, in my experience.

And if it really bothers you, for 0.5t you can wrap that Gauss rifle in a C.A.S.E., that's what it's for...

#46 KW Driver

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:34 AM

View PostD U N E, on 18 February 2021 - 08:21 PM, said:

. . . I just want to say for consideration, please only take valid advice from people that actually know the meta to a good effect. I have seen so many "solutions" in other areas that are completely misguided and unaware of the entire games scope. It's great you want to take community advice, just please make sure you are listening to the correct people that actually know how to play the game. They are more likely to see what can be OP/completely crap - which will help with fun balancing.


And how are you going to suggest that new/less skilled players have a good experience? not everyone has the ability to dedicate 20 hours per week playing the game to "git gud".. While I can commend the expert meta players for their admirable skill sets, you can adapt to changes.. new players get scared off by getting stomped constantly for weeks on end because they don't have the time or cognitive ablility to dedicate toward achieving your skill level. There are exploits that experienced players use for seal clubbing (Lurmers, I'm looking at you with 6-8 mech group indirect fire that can cause 800 damage in less than 5 seconds, and is completely indefensible)..

Two of my adult kids tried playing this game, and left, never to return because the games just weren't fun. They would get thrown into maps they couldn't understand and get wiped out in seconds by the spammers.. they'd be involved in so many 0-12 matches that their opinion was that no matter how cool the game looked, it was broken by so many exploits and piss poor matchmaking that it wasn't worth their time... So back to World of Tanks, War Thunder and CoD they went..

SO, if you want your game to stick around, you have to at least listen to the concerns of the new players (after all, they are the ones that will spend money on this game, not the top shelf players that already have all the content in the game)...

#47 Ostsr

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:34 AM

Flamers - are useless rn, need some dmg-range buff and cook-time nerf.

Gauss - that the special one, who thought charging is a good idea? You can make cd longer but for the love of Karensky undo this cringe charge time.

Snub nose ppc - that a shotgun, a bit of splash and less heat maybe?

Ammo - just too low for 1 ton

And the thoughts about ghost heat - it is stupid. Y. I can understand "bAlAnCE" context of it. Still stupid.

#48 NumberFive

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:36 AM

Machine guns are over-powered - and frustrating to face. They need a jam chance or heat if there are more than about 4 equipped.

Clan energy weapons in general seem weak by comparison - cooldown too long and/or heat too high.

PPC/ ERPPC/ etc PPC needs to be improved. The current game score meta heavily penalises slow, tactical play working with cover. With few exceptions, PPCs can't match the damage output of other weapons. Alternatively, reintroduce the MW2 mechanic of having PPCs land heat on their target as well as damage.

#49 Cichol Balor

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:37 AM

View PostVoice of Kerensky, on 18 February 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

By the way, I am inclined to support my comrades who call for a more sober approach to Gauss rifles.
They have very little health. Their crit chance is more than high (especially the Clan GR and IS HGR), they die very quickly if there is no armor. But tell me WHY do they explode? What's the logic? The GR has already received its crit, it is not dangerous longer. The most powerful weapon has ALREADY been disabled, WHY need explode it, tearing off half of the mech along with the remnants of weaker weapons?


because they do in TT however that was because the capacitors were charged.... they don't hold a charge in mwo anymore.

#50 NumberFive

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:40 AM

View PostOstsr, on 19 February 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

And the thoughts about ghost heat - it is stupid. Y. I can understand "bAlAnCE" context of it. Still stupid.

Ghost heat - or a similar balancing mechanic - needs to exist, otherwise mechs with 8+ energy hardpoints become significantly over-powered. Have you seen The Beef's 'Direstar' build video - having a mech that can one-shot any mech in the game breaks it.

#51 soulfire

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:43 AM

It is something that has tired me of the game and many I know. I've been in this game since the beginning I was active in what was known as the squirrel test group.helping Paul.I don't care for how the lights with machineguns, multiple machineguns and the damage they do.and the unreality of a light with a couple of light lasers and 8 machineguns and take down an atlas. It use to be a light would get knocked down if an assault ran into it which is how it should be but that wasnt fair the lights complained. Reality had no place in being a light pilot. Now I have lights walking right up to me and unloading. I can't aim my weapon at them so of course its a wonderful tactic but not part of the game. Why would we have tanks in the real world if we can load up a couple of jeeps and have them destroy the tank with 50 cal machineguns. Lights have a role in the game but it isnt to take down heavy and assault mechs its to scout, spot for missiles, attack other lights and assist with the rest. But when I see a stock build of 6 machine guns and 6 microlasers one er small laser and two heavy medium lasers . A 20 ton mech can carry that much. You have machineguns basically not creating enough heat to worry about so they are fired continuously. Machines guns of course never in the mech world jam. In the real world they do they also tend to warp the barrels when continuously fired.It is why they are fired in bursts. But basically if you want people to return make the lights more realistic to the battle tech universe or the mech warrior one. Another way out of it is to make armor mean something. It will go against the make the mechs die fast so people will spend money. Paul upped the value of armor once on our test server and it made the game so much more fun and gave it more a feel of realism. Made the battles more interesting because you didn't just instantly die if three large lasers hit you. It made you concentrate fire more and work more as a team because a light with 8 lasers and 27 machineguns couldn't just instantly peal the armor off a mech. Paul never did anything because he was into making lights stronger but it made the game fun for that day. All I see with you guys is the same I see with any devs what to nerf. What weapons should we nerf. Why is it always the taking away of something. Up the value of the armor. Now all those weapons wont do as much damage.All I have seen so far as you guys going down the same path with the same items like LRM's. They worked on those for months on and off changing the spread the damage value what percentage would miss or hit. Line of site not.. I dont really expect you guys to even read this or so anything that will make the game as fun as mech warrior 3. I and others like myself will play another week or so then decided its the same broken game it always was and leave. You guys will nerf this and nerf that as devs do Making sure that turnaround time is fast enough. Doing the same old maps. That was a mistake making the maps too complicated to make easily. You guys need the knowledge they have at star citizen just in making the procedural worlds or what they use to do in Battletech online which never made it out of beta thanks to EA. Battlefields were randomly generated. a pity.

#52 Ostsr

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:48 AM

View PostNumberFive, on 19 February 2021 - 12:40 AM, said:

Ghost heat - or a similar balancing mechanic - needs to exist, otherwise mechs with 8+ energy hardpoints become significantly over-powered. Have you seen The Beef's 'Direstar' build video - having a mech that can one-shot any mech in the game breaks it.


It's a meme mech with 1-2 one-shot potential and can be killed before it even shots because lack of armor.
As I told earlier. I can understand why. But still stupid for me.

#53 Cichol Balor

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:56 AM

32 damage for 48t (before ammo) is far from overpowered so remove the charge limit from light gauss.

#54 denAirwalkerrr

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:57 AM

View PostKW Driver, on 19 February 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:


And how are you going to suggest that new/less skilled players have a good experience? not everyone has the ability to dedicate 20 hours per week playing the game to "git gud".. While I can commend the expert meta players for their admirable skill sets, you can adapt to changes.. new players get scared off by getting stomped constantly for weeks on end because they don't have the time or cognitive ablility to dedicate toward achieving your skill level. There are exploits that experienced players use for seal clubbing (Lurmers, I'm looking at you with 6-8 mech group indirect fire that can cause 800 damage in less than 5 seconds, and is completely indefensible)..

Two of my adult kids tried playing this game, and left, never to return because the games just weren't fun. They would get thrown into maps they couldn't understand and get wiped out in seconds by the spammers.. they'd be involved in so many 0-12 matches that their opinion was that no matter how cool the game looked, it was broken by so many exploits and piss poor matchmaking that it wasn't worth their time... So back to World of Tanks, War Thunder and CoD they went..

SO, if you want your game to stick around, you have to at least listen to the concerns of the new players (after all, they are the ones that will spend money on this game, not the top shelf players that already have all the content in the game)...

And here is 17 year old who in 14 ages was in top 10% of Jarl’s list: https://leaderboard....rch?u=WhiteEyas

And it’s sure wonderful idea to listen to people who know clise to nothing about the game besides that lights OP because they cannot hit them and that LRMs OP because they refuse to use cover and so on.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 19 February 2021 - 01:00 AM.


#55 Cichol Balor

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 12:57 AM

View PostOstsr, on 19 February 2021 - 12:48 AM, said:

It's a meme mech with 1-2 one-shot potential and can be killed before it even shots because lack of armor.
As I told earlier. I can understand why. But still stupid for me.


considering the alternative would have been a blanket nerf to the offending weapon systems this is definitely the least annoying option.

#56 uwuziel

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:35 AM

LRM/ATM:
As of now they are fine in terms of damage and lock-on times. One thing though I would reccomend is allowing all LRMs to fire in minimum range. "Hotloading" as battletech would refer to it as. Rather than nullifying damage, Accuracy would be reduced, aka: spread increased. The closer they are the more spread is added.
This would make LRM focused chassis not completley defensless when engaging a flanker. Its difficult enough just to get a lock on someone half your size and twice your speed running around your feet. This might also show similar damage falloff to how clan LRMs are right now, so if done right we should see little to no overall DPS change for them in CQB.
ATMs should have a velocity nerf to make AMS and cover a little more potent.

PPCs:
Same dealio. If a PPC is fired in minimum range it should still hit. However, if someone gets too close and you fire at them, you risk damage as well in return. This should help restore PPCs to its original sniping niche, rather than SRMs for an energy-only build. Thats what snubs are for.
Hot-Take: It should work just like the lore. If fired in that min range the PPC itself has a chance of exploading. This would give it the similar role to gauss rifles, which have an increased chance of exploading. And they expload...a lot...Anyone with trigger disipline should see little to no effects from this. And people who wanna roll the dice, better get a 10 or higher Posted Image
ERs and Snubs would obviously not be affected.
Light PPCs should have a small cooldown and ghost heat buff.

Gauss:
lower crit chance.plz
In all honesty their crit chance is too high. Even with a Max survivability Fafnir I get weapon explosions to lasers and autocannons. But their crit chance should be higher than most yes?
Again, make it lore accurate! Gauss should work as follows:

When you first drop, the gauss is uncharged, but begins charging immedietly. Firing is instantanious, but then you must wait for the cooldown and charge up period. While charged the weapon will expload on being destroyed, as it does now. However, if the weapon is destroyed while on cooldown or while charging no explosion will occur.
This will alliviate mechs being killed due to one lucky shot in a brawl, but will still require gauss users to stay on their toes while the weapon is charged up. This could also create a micro-meta, where if your arm or torsoe is about to get shot off, you might get off a shot and LET IT be destroyed to avoid the risk of an explosion later, sacrificing whatever else was there.
Also increase the Viability of light gauss. Give it a smidge more ammo and a small fire rate buff. SMALL tho. Dont want to op it.

Flamers:
Oh flamers. How I adore thee. They should be reworked in their little 'overcharge' bar. Firing one flamers builds the same 'overcharge' as firing 7. Simply fix that up so that one flamer wont risk melting your own mech if you hold out. Flamers should work where the less you have, the less heat you immidietly build. BUT you can SUTSTAIN that small amount of heat longer. Where more flamers would build more heat and faster, but in smaller bursts.

To accomodate, the 'overcharge' should also start reducing sooner. Once its red it doesnt matter how many you have. You're not firing them for another 10 seconds. If your opponent waits you out, you literally cant do anything in that time with half your loadout. There should be some back and forth there.

LBX/AC 10:
The quad AC-10 loadout is everywhere it seems. A simple fix is make the ghost heat of AC-10s start at 3, but make it far more dramatic. Firing 3 generates a respectable amout of extra heat, but firing four at once means you should actually carry a heat sink or two. DPS wont change much, but it might force those who carry the quad AC 10 to lead and face tank their targets a little more, rather than punching out 40 damage, twisting, then punching out 40 more. If they want that 40 damage to go to your face, they gotta send it and commit. That "punch twist punch" combo should be reserved for heavier hitters like AC20, Gauss, and PPCs.

Rocket Launchers:
Buff the min range. Thats it

Small pulse lasers:
Would love to see a lower cooldown. Damage itself is fine, but they need to be the machine-gun equivilant of energy. Not x-pulse fast, but fast enough to where if ignored they can do serious harm, or provied substantial DPS to an already ok build.

Micro pulse lasers:
They really need a range buff

Laser AMS:
hothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothothot
So. dang. hot.

#57 Appuagab

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:37 AM

View PostNumberFive, on 19 February 2021 - 12:40 AM, said:

Ghost heat - or a similar balancing mechanic - needs to exist, otherwise mechs with 8+ energy hardpoints become significantly over-powered. Have you seen The Beef's 'Direstar' build video - having a mech that can one-shot any mech in the game breaks it.

Having arbitrary limit of how many weapons you can shoot is bad design. If all weapons contributed to some kind of universal heat multiplier to have a smooth curve of excess heat from big alphas it would've been fine but PGI went for lazy crutch like they always do. The fact that they had to revisit the system multiple times, adding new weapon combos to ghost heat list, implementing stupid gauss shots limit and adding HSL quirks proves that ghost heat is just half-measures to avoid balancing the game properly.

#58 ImperialKnight

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:49 AM

make Clan Small Pulse Lasers great again. yes, i can 1v2 mechs with 12 SPLas, but honestly if I was able to get into the range that I can knife 2 enemy mechs to death, I deserve to be able to knife 2 enemy mechs to death. had enough of whiners who caused the nerf in the first place. "boo hoo, it's unfair, he killed me in 3 seconds with his 12 SPLas that has an optimal range of 165 metres." Please.

#59 KW Driver

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:51 AM

View PostdenAirwalkerrr, on 19 February 2021 - 12:57 AM, said:

And here is 17 year old who in 14 ages was in top 10% of Jarl’s list: https://leaderboard....rch?u=WhiteEyas

And it’s sure wonderful idea to listen to people who know clise to nothing about the game besides that lights OP because they cannot hit them and that LRMs OP because they refuse to use cover and so on.


Yep, and how much money can that kid contribute to keeping the game going? ADULTS can't afford to spend 40 hours a week playing video games.. You people still don't seem to get it.. when the money stops, so does the game. PGI is not in business to provide you with free entertainment. They need a return on the investment. And if the new players with money to spend (people who work real jobs and thus can't dedicate 40-60 hours per week to "git gud," get chased off by the players with nothing else to do with their time, then they will not spend money on something they deem to be no fun. This is the inherent risk of a free to play game, versus a pay upfront game.. And news flash, when the income from all the paid content stops, the game gets shut down....

Now, do the new players know what they're talking about when it comes to the math and details? no, they don't.. but even a 2 year old knows when they aren't having any fun and can tell what is keeping it from being fun. This NEEDS to be listened to and addressed.. the details of how to get there may be unknown and so that player says nerf the LRMs, which may be wrong.. but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem... and if that problem isn't fixed then that player stops playing the game, and takes their wallet with them.. You may think it's fun to demolish an Anni in 3 seconds while he's still in his spawn area, but is that player thinking it's fun? You may think it's fun to run circles around a new player that barely knows how to play the game and kill him in 10 seconds using only machine guns, but is that worth the player walking away and not spending any money on the game? Which is more important to you: enhancing your meta build for a little while, or making sure the game sticks around for years to come? Like I said in my other post, props to you guys with the skills to be on top, but tbh, your skills do absolutely nothing for PGI's bottom line... Money talks, and skills find a new game to play when it's all over..

Edited by KW Driver, 19 February 2021 - 01:58 AM.


#60 Vultt

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 01:54 AM

IC:
AC 20 range + 20-40m , velocity +100-150 , remove the gost hit for 2 , - 1-2 slots
AC 5 +10% rate of fire
AC 2 - 5-10% rate of fire , it is possible to increase the heating
UAC 10 increase the heating or increase the cooldown
UAC 2 reduce the chance of a weapon wedge and increase the heating
LBX 2,5,10,20 reduce heating
LBX 20 - 1-2 slots
RAC 5 more ammo , - heat
LPL + 1 damage
SPL + 15-30 range
SL + 30-40 range
ERSL + 30-50 range
PPC,ERPPS minimum range 30-50m or remove it , + damage and - heat
LPPC minimum range 30-50m or remove it , -1 ton and - heat
SUBNOISE PPC + range 20-40m , + damage and - heat
HeavyPPC + 2-2.5 damage or - heat
LRM increase the spread of indirect fire and reduce the spread from direct fire
NARK more ammo , reduce the action time by 2-3 seconds
LAMS - much heat
GAUSS + 2.5 damage
LGAUSS - 1.5-2 tons + 1-1.5 damage

CLAN :
AC 2 - 5-10% rate of fire , it is possible to increase the heating
AC 5,10 -1 ton , - 10% heat
AC 20 -1 ton , - 10% heat , velocity +100-150 , remove the gost hit for 2
UAC 2 reduce the chance of a weapon wedge and increase the heating
UAC5,10 increase the heating or increase the cooldown
UAC20 velocity +50-150
LBX 2,5,10,20 reduce heating , - 1-1.5 tons
LPL + 1.5 damage
SPL +20-30 range
HLL + 1-2 damage
HML + 20-30 range
LRM more life vs amc , increase the spread of indirect fire and reduce the spread from direct fire
SSRM more damage or more rate of fire
ATM -0.5 maximum damage
NARK more ammo , reduce the action time by 2-3 seconds
LAMS - much heat
GAUSS + 2.5 damage





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