86 replies to this topic

[Daeron Katz]

Greetings MechWarriors!

The March patch will include our first Map Spawn Point adjustment. In this initial pass, we'll be focusing on Tourmaline Desert. We're aware that Team 1 Alpha Group Spawn is probably the biggest offender with Tourmaline currently, but we will be looking at all potential solutions including and up to altering multiple or even all spawn points if necessary. We're also taking into consideration the different game modes, and how that may impact spawn point placement.

So yes, we would specifically like your feedback on Tourmaline Desert Spawn Points, but this is also the time to start prioritizing the maps that we focus on in the patches following the March update.

We are looking for specific and actionable items. Please avoid spamming opinions in this thread such as "fix NASCAR" as it's non-constructive. Spawn Point adjustments will be an ongoing process, with multiple passes, and ongoing reviews and balance as necessary.

Thank you!
The MechWarrior Online Team

[Krasnopesky]

One main suggestion I have is to simply spawn all 12 mechs together in one place. More suggestions will follow.

[Tarl Cabot]

Caustic - Charlie Lance (usually Assault Lance) on the side with C/B/A. Switch C and B on both sides and/or move Charlie closer to Bravo.

Just quoting this to emphasis it. PGI's vision on spawns on maps rarely match reality.

Krasnopesky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

One main suggestion I have is to simply spawn all 12 mechs together in one place. More suggestions will follow.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 February 2021 - 06:24 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Daeron Katz, on 18 February 2021 - 05:44 PM, said:

Would it be possible to get a copy of the map and current spawn points and objectives posted in the OP?

Nevermind, looks like it's still on https://mwo.smurfy-n...esert&m=assault

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 18 February 2021 - 06:33 PM.

[Voice of Kerensky]

The problem of the spawn points of assaults in the Alpha lance on the map Canyon Network. The assaults in the Alpha lance on the Mining Collective. The assaults in the Bravo lance on the HPG Manifold. The assaults in the Alpha lance on the Tourmaline Desert. Assaults in the Alpha lance on the Grim Plexus (especially in domination mode). Assaults in Charlie lance on the Old Frozen City (square A4). Assaults in Alpha lance in the new Frozen City (especially in Conquest and Domination modes). Assaults on the Terra Therma.

I believe that you (the developers) for would better understand the problems of spawn points, you yourself should play the slow assault mechs. Create group with one or two assaults, then you will see spawn point problems on maps, for example, the Canyon Network and the Tourmaline Desert, the Grim Plexus and the Mining Collective. Walk alone to play on assaults to see the spawn point issues, for example, in the Bravo lance on the HPG Manifold. Play on different maps and in different game modes. It is advisable to play at high levels because the fastest and bloodiest fights take place at high levels. At the fifth tier, you will not see such fierceness and transience of the fight as at 2-1 tier. At low tiers, fast lights are unlikely to come quickly behind your assault to gobble it up.


Frozen City (new) terrifying in Domination and Assault game modes.

I believe that on this map, only three types of pilots can vote for the indicated modes:

1) Lurm-warriors;
2) ERLL, ERPPC, AC/LB-2 snipers;
3) Pilots who simply do not know how the battle will unfold on this map in these modes.

Domination mode.

A common problem for the domination mode is that people who voted for this mode on this map are not even going to enter the circle. These people, voting for this game mode, immediately decided for themselves not to fulfill the task of this game mode. As a result, those who voted for dominance stand behind buildings on the sides of the capture zone and hide. At a time when people who did not vote for this horror are often simply forced to enter the center and capture the zone (so as not to lose by capture), while constantly being under enemy fire. I have seen this picture hundreds of times. And to my great regret for me, I am the very person who is simply forced to go to the center, to the open area under the fire of the enemys. The result is no pleasure, just a feeling of hatred for cowards in their team, who voted for this game mode on this map, and while hiding themselves.


Assault mode.

Everything is simple here. In order for a fight to start, one of the teams must overcome a rather long path through the open area (often under fire of the same Lurm-warriors and all sorts of snipers). Very often the assault mode on this map turns into a war of nerves. People can not stand a long standing on their side of the map and begin to go over to the enemy's side one by one, where they die one by one. After killing 2-4 of these faint-hearted players, the enemy begins the assault, trampling the rest of the team. Occasionally, there are times when one of the teams goes to an organized assault on the enemy side. But at the same time, there is a high probability that not everyone will reach the enemy. After all, it is always more difficult to storm than to defend.



At the same time, everyone knows that one of the sides of the map is almost never used (in the skirmish, conquest, and incursion game modes), this is the side of 3, 4 and 5 lines. There, only small skirmishes of lights are possible in the conquest mode for the points and in the incursion mode for the fuel cell. I.e. half of the card is actually dead, unnecessary.

Hence my next proposal follows. To improve the game modes domination and assault, all active collisions can be transferred to these lines. This is not difficult to do.

In assault mode, place teams and bases in squares E3-D3-D4 and G3-H3-H4:




In domination mode, move the capture circle to the F4-F5 area:




If this is done, then the map will be fully involved: in the skirmish, conquest and incursion modes, the main battles will take place on the 6,7 and 8 lines, in the dominance and assault modes, the main battles will take place on the 3, 4 and 5 lines.


Mining Collective.

Team 1, which is dropped on the 6-line, has the advantage. The snipers and lurm-warriors of this team have the ability to shoot the center of the map from 6-line , and medium-range mechs can shoot in the center from D5-E5 positions. Thus, Team 2, overcoming the E4 ascent, gets under frontal fire from E5-E6, and coming to the center from the ramp, immediately fall under flank fire, forced to disperse fire forward and to the right, and at the same time have practically no cover.
At the same time, the snipers, lurm-warriors and medium-range mechs of Team 2, which dropped on 2 lines, are not able to fire at the center of the map because it is closed from them by a solid wall. Thanks to this, Team 1 goes to the center of the map without being afraid of flank fire at all, this team can focus all attention and fire to the front.
Team 2 is also limited in flanking maneuvers along the F-line:
- on F5, the rise is not in the optimal place;
- the F-line is just as well under shot by snipers and lurm-warriors;
- the descent from E4 to F4 is in an inconvenient place - in case of retreat, slow mechs need a very long time to return.

https://ibb.co/2qcDz2d




Grim Plexus.

On G7, there are poles at the corners of two buildings (lighting trusses?). One of these trusses is very close to the building, so the Assault Mechs cannot pass between this truss and the building's wall. Sometimes you die because of this. Under the fire of a pushing enemy, you retreat, stepping back along the wall, confident that you will be able to hide around the corner of the building, but your back rests against the pillar - that's it, you're a corpse.

Edited by Voice of Kerensky, 18 February 2021 - 06:50 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

TL;DR of this. Side lances that are closest to an enemy team going counter-clockwise tend to be overrun by the enemy team/wolf pack/3-4 man group. The simplest solution is to just cluster the lances.

Frozen Classic Skirmish north team Charlie Lance in A4. Fats spawning there can have difficulty escaping before the team rotates to the far end of the map or the enemy team rotates into them and eats them alive. Its less exasperated in other modes on the map, but spawning mechs in that death trench on such a small map is awful regardless.

Canyon, Hibernal, and Caustic all have issues with Charlie Lance on one team being on the left flank of the team. As rotation typically proceeds counter clockwise, slow mechs are often left to fate.

Canyon/Hibernal get special mention for Alpha Spawn on the south team as well, slow mechs spawning in trenches that are difficult to escape if you don't know the map well, and even if you do, still leaves you far from the rest of you team.

HPG. Any south team lances spawning in D2 are put in an awkward position if there's even moderately fast rotation from the opposition. North team Bravo spawn in D7/D6 has a similar issue, but its mostly only an issue if the enemy has a wolfpack.

Forest Colony Alpha spawn near I3 for west team, because navigating out of there sucks, and if you're in a slow mech you will be late to the party. Alpha spawn that's way off in the ocean for the east team also kinda sucks just because of the walking simulator aspect of it.

Grim Plexus south side alpha spawn in J6 when the rest of the is east of them (such as on Domination), can be difficult to escape for slow mechs, as crossing H8 to G8 can be difficult once the fight starts.

Mining east team Alpha spawn, and to a lesser extent, east team's Charlie spawn as well. Slow mechs get left behind in the rotation, unless they call to push E line (and the team actually listens, which is 50/50 odds on a good day).

River City D4 spawn. Wolfpacks. The additional distance also doesn't help if the team decides to cross the river to fight at the citadel, as snipers are often set up by the time slow mechs get there.

Rubellite Domination, both Charlie spawns. Rotation actually makes these spawns safer in stark contrast to the rest of this list, but its also very easy for fast lights to beeline Charlie lance and give them a bit of hell before the team gets there.

Solaris City. All of the spawns that have an unobstructed path to the edge of the map, and those that spawn you behind a wide building (Domination south team Bravo spawn for instance). The latter is merely an annoyance, but with the former its easy for somebody that DC's or simply isn't paying attention to just walk right off the map 20 seconds into the match.


I will say however, that some of these spawns are fun in private lobbies, as spawns can be chosen and teams aren't so entirely selfish as they are in QP, so if it'd be within reason to preserve the maps as they are now for use in private lobbies (like was done with Escort), it wouldn't be unappreciated.

[Jettrik Ryflix]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I wonder if it's possible to have multiple different spawn patterns for every map?

This way the teams would need scouting to determine the enemy location, and slow mechs may not be as vulnerable, as veterans of the game wouldn't be able to assume their position.

This would make every map instantly more dynamic, and change the way the game plays (scouting!).

[VonBruinwald]

VonBruinwald, on 29 January 2021 - 07:43 PM, said:

+1; Some potential domination changes I've been toying with:

All four have the same objectives in mind:

• Move the main combat zone to a not-oft played part of the map
  
• Provide opportunities to fight/harass en-route and by extension reduce the prevalence of Nascar. Lights and Mediums now have a choice to cap, harass the enemy or screen their harassers.
  
• Make the objective area feel like an objective. A patch of open snow in the highlands doesn't feel like an objective, but a base structure does.

Dom = C4, Gens = D3/C5, Spawns = F3/E6

Quite obvious really, you have a main base to fight over and a mountain blocking LOS on approach.




Dom = C4, Gens = E5/C5, Spawns = D7/G5

The mountain pass and tunnel provide an opportunity to flank the enemy team and easy access to their generator. First contact will likely be in D5, but D4/C4 offers better cover. Don't forget to pay your respects at the memorial monument in C3


Dom = J6, Gens = H6/K8, Spawns = F5/K10

Good fights to be had in J6 but plenty of opportunities to fight in the usual places.


Dom = F4, Gens = E5/G5, Spawns = E8/H8

Airdrop and a beach head insertion result in heavy ordinance getting flung around a nuclear power-plant, what could go wrong...
E5 provides a good position for over-watch but G5 offers better cover if you're heading for the objective.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Tourmaline is the worst by far. I don't remember the details, but one spawn point is just a death sentence for assaults (and it's even worse in FP). I'm sure u know the one.

[Kano111]

If assaults, heavies, lights etc cannot be placed in appropriate lances (due to premade groups effecting drop points by often being in Alpha lance? Some other reason?) why not just drop everyone in a cluster together?

Spawn points that limit player choice seem to be the most troublesome. Below are some I know of.

1. A (E4 spawn?) point in Tourmaline allows early contact with assaults from close-ish opposing spawn at a better vantage point.
2. Frozen City Classic B4 spawn. If opponents rush C4, assaults have small window to get to cover.
3. Canyon Network E3 spawn. Assaults often swamped by lights if they do not do a hard right and use the shortcut up the hill and get assistance.
4. Hibernal Rift E3 spawn (I think) Assaults are also often swamped by lights if they don't turn hard right and have some support.

I'm sure there are some I have forgotten.

Basically.... Assaults should be dropping as far as possible from Lights and Mediums?

Edited by Kano111, 18 February 2021 - 08:52 PM.

[SoulRcannon]

No more misplaced assaults please (alpha lance, furthest from the flow of nascar or otherwise death sentence spawns). If that's not possible due to the soupy-ness of the queue right now, just bunch us all up together.

If quick play becomes solo queue again, and group queue comes back then this is worth a more complex discussion. Some good specifics being mentioned here, but this is what I feel is the crux of the matter currently.

[Phar Ming Yu]

Simple fix, have X number of drop points on the exterior edges of the map, drop each team TOGETHER at random but roughly opposite spawn points. Assaults stop getting screwed over, team cohesion would go up, matches would take on a different feel with different spawn points and tactics would be more involved than the usual Nascar.

[The6thMessenger]

Krasnopesky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

One main suggestion I have is to simply spawn all 12 mechs together in one place. More suggestions will follow.

Elegant and simple approach. I think we can also use the current spawn points as the randomized points where the entirety of the team can be dropped. Then just adjust from there.

[Clay Endfield]

Krasnopesky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

One main suggestion I have is to simply spawn all 12 mechs together in one place. More suggestions will follow.

Here's my suggestion: What he said.

[Gagis]

If not quite brining everyone together, reducing the distances of A and C from B by 25% or 50% would make many maps work more fluidly, especially Tourmaline.

[Voice of Kerensky]

For spawn points (for combined solo/group queue).
My suggestion:
It does not matter if the player is in a group or is playing solo, he must be physically placed in a lance that matches his tonnage, but must be assigned to his premade lance. In this way, all 'Mechs will be drop out in accordance with their tonnage, but the premade groups will keep the assigned to one lance, they will see the emerald color of their lance on the minimap, this color difference will allow them to quickly gather into a group.
I am sometimes literally infuriated by the existing mechanics. I play alone on a assault, the Tourmaline Desert card drops out, our team has a premade of fast mechs, I am thrown into Alpha lance with this premade. Naturally this premade of fast mechs leaves me alone at the spawning point the moment their mechs legs touched the ground. At the same time, I see light/medium in Charlie lance! What's the matter?! Why was I thrown into the Alpha lance on a assault, and the light was thrown at Charlie lance?!

P.S. Solo and group queues must be separated.

Edited by Voice of Kerensky, 18 February 2021 - 10:52 PM.

[Laser Kiwi]

Voice of Kerensky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:38 PM, said:

Domination mode.

A common problem for the domination mode is that people who voted for this mode on this map are not even going to enter the circle. These people, voting for this game mode, immediately decided for themselves not to fulfill the task of this game mode. As a result, those who voted for dominance stand behind buildings on the sides of the capture zone and hide. At a time when people who did not vote for this horror are often simply forced to enter the center and capture the zone (so as not to lose by capture), while constantly being under enemy fire. I have seen this picture hundreds of times. And to my great regret for me, I am the very person who is simply forced to go to the center, to the open area under the fire of the enemys. The result is no pleasure, just a feeling of hatred for cowards in their team, who voted for this game mode on this map, and while hiding themselves.

Entering the circle is overrated. One light needs to enter the circle or one mech needs to supress one enemy with effective fire in the circle to stop the counter, having the assaults run to the middle, especially if they happen to hold say 8 ac2's or whatever is the height of stupidity. I actually grow tired of the simplistic idea that assaults have the armour and should therefore be up the front, i'm telling you right now my commando 1d has more durability on the front line than a bloody assault. and since people will go commando is broken, there are others just as good, even the good ol arctic cheetah can hang out there while the others form appropriate firing lines

Edited by Wesleytron, 18 February 2021 - 11:04 PM.

[Voice of Kerensky]

Wesleytron, on 18 February 2021 - 11:03 PM, said:

Entering the circle is overrated. One light needs to enter the circle or one mech needs to supress one enemy with effective fire in the circle to stop the counter, having the assaults run to the middle, especially if they happen to hold say 8 ac2's or whatever is the height of stupidity. I actually grow tired of the simplistic idea that assaults have the armour and should therefore be up the front, i'm telling you right now my commando 1d has more durability on the front line than a bloody assault. and since people will go commando is broken, there are others just as good, even the good ol arctic cheetah can hang out there while the others form appropriate firing lines

The developers asked not to litter this topic with controversy, so I'll just give you a hint with my own quote, maybe you can understand it correctly:

Voice of Kerensky, on 18 February 2021 - 06:38 PM, said:

are often simply forced to enter the center and capture the zone (so as not to lose by capture), while constantly being under enemy fire.

[Giraffe Beta]

Frozen City Charlie lance in the trench. They come up to the city and instantly get wrecked if theyre assaults (depending on the enemy spawn).

[uwuziel]

Im sure it would be tought finding a balance between giving flanking mechs an oppourtunity to flank, and front line mechs and oppourtunity to tank. It sucks for every when a beefy brawly atlas gets spawned all the way in the back and off to the side with the lights, in front of other light spawns or out in the open. At the same time though, you dont want to squish the dynamic down to the point where its "run to the middle and run in circles."

Summary at the end:
Since 6v6s are returning, I would feel it would be interesting to have Alpha and Beta spawns moved closer to the center, while Charlie can spawn off to either side. Going back to how it was a year or two ago, spawns will be determing via the weight of the mech. Assaults and heavies go in Alpha/Beta, and lights and mediums go in Charlie. You could even go as far as to detect loadouts, where if a mech is carrying LRMs or RACs they can go in Beta, the support branch. Where as they have lots of lasers or SRMs they can go in Alpha, the frontline branch.

This type of system, with some tinkering and testing, should give everyone the opppurtunity to start the match where the need to be. Assaults are in the front of their team ready to tank, LRMs and Gauss right behind them ready to support. Lights are off the the side ready to scout and flank. If a light wants to support they have enough speed to catch up with the Alpha and Beta branch, and if an assault wants to hang back they do just that. Taking it easy and letting the others push up first.

This would also split things up, so for a short time teams might be in a 8v8 scenario, or at least something smaller than a 12v12. If Charlie lance wanted to come in and support the main push, they would have to sacrifice the initial flank and perhaps any intel with it. This could potentially create scenarios where there are big brawls for objectives, rather than lights getting to the center objective poking around waiting for their team.

I can't give any advice off the top of my head for anything specific, as for something like this to work would require, again, tinkering and testing. Seeing what metas people find and balancing things out, along with map changes if one side seems forever doomed. I see people kamikaze just because they got "the bad side" of the map and I honestly don't blame them. The important part is making sure both sides have an equal chance.

TLDR;
Alpha and Beta lances should be reserved for heavier chassis. Alpha is frontline, with Beta right behind them. Charlie is reserved for lighter chassis, and spawn off to the side where if they want to meet up with the main force they need to sacrifice their flank route.