134 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

https://www.youtube....oWonxBKw?t=1556

Quote

there is debate up there you know do we take giant steps or do we take baby steps in terms of uh not obviously this is a past one we're not gonna do all the weapons we're gonna do a certain number of weapons um but the question is do we just you know huge changes massive changes or do we do little baby steps um and that's subjective from the community it's subjective um you know there's the cautionary people that have had have their favorite builds and they want baby steps and then there's the people that are just like oh my god i need a change in this game so we're going to try and hopefully find a balance there and provide a solid um you know first pass at the weapons balance yeah it's not going to be every weapon either so don't like anticipate that every weapon is going to be touched it's going to be probably a group of weapons with like a thought process behind it and um yeah so we will explain our thought process process behind the changes and then you guys can feedback on it and weapon change past two will be you know and loaded in the chambers for the next patch

I'm going to be honest here, like I have all of the time, I agree with the direction of the Gulag, I just disagree on how far it should go. There's issues with their approach, and just reeks of that min-maxing stuff that they transparently retain, that I could only describe as disgust to SSRMS and homing-weapon in general, and the further enforcement of poking.

But seriously, the Gulag group have literally done the work for all of you, for free, as baby-steps as they could put it that I already disagree, but here it is going to be ignored once again, just like the previous Community-Driven Balance Update, going to be done with their own ******** of direction.

Why the selective balance pass? why just not all of it? is it because there's a direction that is different than what PGI wants? While the debate about baby-steps or giant-steps is subjective, PGI ******* up the balance with a series of bad decisions is objective. If they are back to their usual BS, I don't see any point in continuing, it'll be just wasted effort.

We all know where this is going, because we've already been there.

We are here right now because of a series of bad decisions from PGI, that includes the weapon balances before that dropped us down in a hole. What is bound to happen is just to get us another hole. It has been said that "those who don't learn from history is doomed to repeat it". And here comes PGI failing to learn from their mistakes, and now about to make the same mistake over again.

Either do the entirety of Gulag, or just forget the revitalization effort and stop wasting our time.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2021 - 03:51 PM.

[Heavy Money]

The Gulag weapon changes generally look good.
Their quirk changes don't go far enough to help weaker mechs though.

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 24 February 2021 - 09:27 PM, said:

The Gulag weapon changes generally look good.
Their quirk changes don't go far enough to help weaker mechs though.

Sometimes the Gulag quirk changes actually hurt average and weaker mechs, while simultaneously buffing mechs that are already pretty good. I'd be satisfied with implementing most of their weapon changes but entirely discarding their quirk suggestions.

[East Indy]

Weapon changes: great.

Quirks: not showing the same focus. Those *can* be done in waves. More eye for detail and truly solving issues. It'd be better for sales, too, because players could concentrate on a couple chassis or favorite variant.

[Elizander]

Not gonna lie, I just want my SPL HBK back and replace min range on IS PPCs with 50-80% of the base damage. Oh, and just delete snub nose PPCs.

[LordNothing]

Elizander, on 25 February 2021 - 08:08 PM, said:

Oh, and just delete snub nose PPCs.

nah, give em splash.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 February 2021 - 12:04 PM.

[Bud Crue]

If I had my way, I'd go with the gulag weapons changes, all of the qurik buffs and none of the quirk nerfs or pullbacks. Let any nerfs come later. All nerfs are going to do at this point is piss people off, especially if the nerfs end up being heavy handed or affect already under utilized variants.


I'd really like to see PGI's data on every variants frequency of play (and build data if they have it, which I doubt) to help guide the quirks discussion as well.

[Heavy Money]

The main place the Gulag changes fall short is in buffing underused IS mediums and heavies.
The simplest fix to those might be to change how XL engines work though. If they weren't instant death, a lot of variants would suddenly become worthwhile.

[East Indy]

Bud Crue, on 26 February 2021 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'd really like to see PGI's data on every variants frequency of play (and build data if they have it, which I doubt) to help guide the quirks discussion as well.

That reminds me of when events used to tally performance scores by variant. While there was definitely participation bias coloring results, the data still presented a really interesting food chain.

[JediPanther]

$500 gold clan mech and a year of mc says they *** up like normal their 'balance.' We all know that as long as certain people have final say that the game is just going through more smoke and mirriors like it has the past..umm count von count, how many years has pgi been tying to fix or improve this game with 'features' this game?

You lost count too? Ok, so we'll just go with the standard soon in 90 days then.

[Elizander]

Heavy Money, on 26 February 2021 - 02:00 PM, said:

The main place the Gulag changes fall short is in buffing underused IS mediums and heavies.
The simplest fix to those might be to change how XL engines work though. If they weren't instant death, a lot of variants would suddenly become worthwhile.

I've always been suggesting a quirk like your mech keeps moving for like 15 seconds after losing an XL ST as IS. Get one or two more shots off at least.

[Heavy Money]

Elizander, on 26 February 2021 - 04:52 PM, said:

I've always been suggesting a quirk like your mech keeps moving for like 15 seconds after losing an XL ST as IS. Get one or two more shots off at least.

It should just be a really nasty heat spike and movement penalty, but not instant death.

[Davegt27]

where do I find the Gulag's requests/recommendations ??

[The6thMessenger]

Davegt27, on 26 February 2021 - 06:26 PM, said:

where do I find the Gulag's requests/recommendations ??

Navid A1, on 18 February 2021 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is the link to weapon change suggestions that were brought up by the "gulag" (a group of comp, casual, veteran and new MWO players)

Weapon changes: https://i.imgur.com/allGw5G.png






vs Live stats: https://i.imgur.com/rEh9bJ2.png




In accordance with the above weapon changes these modifications to mech quirks would be required:
https://www.dropbox....11_30.docx?dl=0




Mech agility increase across the board, according to this proposal:
https://docs.google....#gid=1508912275



MASC: (NOTE: These changes complement the base agility increase for all mechs,... linked above)

• Reduce MASC fill-rate by 50% (from 0.09 to 0.045), leading to double active time
  
• Reduce accel/decel boost to x1.66 (instead of x 2)
  
• Reduce reticle shake and spread to 33% of current amount (-66%reduction)
  
• Increase redline threshold to 85 (from 75)

Legged mech speed cap:

• Consider increasing the legged speed cap to 60 kph (including speed retention nodes)

Also... Jump Jets:

• Current system:

• Solution:

Full proposal including the above mentioned weapon changes and other aspects, like mech mobility and Jump jets: https://www.dropbox....AG_v2.pptx?dl=0





Will update this post if something changes.

Spread the ****** word.

I have my own suggestions too, but if anything, this needs to happen.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 February 2021 - 06:42 PM.

[YueFei]

Mech agility baseline increase and mech scaling to shrink them down a bit (and make damage spreading easier)? That's a definite YES from me.

One suggestion I'd add: increase the arm angle across the board to 90 degrees off-axis for all mechs with lower arm actuators. In MW3 and MW4 you could aim your arm weapons 90 degrees to the side in order to fire it at enemies whilst keeping your CT shielded.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly i like most of the weapon changes show other than the LRM nerf, they are bad enough as it is. leave them the same and perhaps buff Narc/Tag to make folks more willing to use them. (i stopped using tag after they nerfed the hell out of it). i don't use streak SRM so i don't have any opinion on that one. same goes for the Clan stuff because i very rarely if every use clan mechs.

[LordNothing]

you know i think while the gulag folks mean good on their weapon suggestions, i think the place that needs the balance are the mechs. so many trash tier mechs that need querkening or buffage of baseline stats. i want to see what the gulag can do with that problem.

problem with weapon changes, you change a weapon, and it effects multiple variants in ways that are hard to predict. you buff a small laser and who knows what kind of metas you will create or obsolete. but if you make a bad variant better, it exists in isolation and does not have wide sweeping consequences.

of course im not saying that any major outliers in the weapon space shouldnt be addressed. the small laser example was intentionally a bad example because they are such an outlier that of course they ought to be gulag'd.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 March 2021 - 10:27 PM.

[LordNothing]

VeeOt Dragon, on 27 February 2021 - 01:17 AM, said:

honestly i like most of the weapon changes show other than the LRM nerf, they are bad enough as it is. leave them the same and perhaps buff Narc/Tag to make folks more willing to use them. (i stopped using tag after they nerfed the hell out of it). i don't use streak SRM so i don't have any opinion on that one. same goes for the Clan stuff because i very rarely if every use clan mechs.

ive been a proponent for strong tag/narc buffs ever since i started playing the game and noticed how useless they are compared to the same equipment in living legends. missile steering is a fun mechanic. why you no do? i have a similar opinion of aoe weapons, also vectorable jump jets. do fun things!

Edited by LordNothing, 01 March 2021 - 10:38 PM.

[YueFei]

LordNothing, on 01 March 2021 - 09:56 PM, said:

you know i think while the gulag folks mean good on their weapon suggestions, i think the place that needs the balance are the mechs. so many trash tier mechs that need querkening or buffage of baseline stats. i want to see what the gulag can do with that problem.

problem with weapon changes, you change a weapon, and it effects multiple variants in ways that are hard to predict. you buff a small laser and who knows what kind of metas you will create or obsolete. but if you make a bad variant better, it exists in isolation and does not have wide sweeping consequences.

of course im not saying that any major outliers in the weapon space shouldnt be addressed. the small laser example was intentionally a bad example because they are such an outlier that of course they ought to be gulag'd.

To me it seems the Gulag philosophy is that we shouldn't have under-powered weapons which might only be viable on certain mechs due to quirks. Instead the idea is to make those under-powered weapons strong enough in their own right without relying on particular mechs' quirks to be viable, and then those quirks can be dialed back. I think balancing weapons first is the right approach, because weapons apply to all mechs, and if every weapon system is effective, then whatever hardpoints a mech has it would be able to mount effective weapons in those hardpoints.

Once all the weapons are well balanced, then another pass can and should be done to quirk up the under-performing mechs.

[Grus]

The6thMessenger, on 24 February 2021 - 08:59 PM, said:

https://www.youtube....oWonxBKw?t=1556



I'm going to be honest here, like I have all of the time, I agree with the direction of the Gulag, I just disagree on how far it should go. There's issues with their approach, and just reeks of that min-maxing stuff that they transparently retain, that I could only describe as disgust to SSRMS, and the further enforcement of poking.

But seriously, the Gulag group have literally done the work for all of you, for free, as baby-steps as they could put it that I already disagree, but here it is going to be ignored once again, just like the previous Community-Driven Balance Update, going to be done with their own ******** of direction.

Why the selective balance pass? why just not all of it? is it because there's a direction that is different than what PGI wants? While the debate about baby-steps or giant-steps is subjective, PGI ******* up the balance with a series of bad decisions is objective. If they are back to their usual BS, I don't see any point in continuing, it'll be just wasted effort. We all know where this is going, because we've already been there.

We are here right now because of a series of bad decisions from PGI, that includes the weapon balances before that dropped us down in a hole. What is bound to happen is just to get us another hole. It has been said that "those who don't learn from history is doomed to repeat it". And here comes PGI failing to learn from their mistakes, and now about to make the same mistake over again.

Either do the entirety of Gulag, or just forget the revitalization effort and stop wasting our time.

The rean they ignore stuff like this, is because they didn't think of it. So if its not thier idea, it makes them look bad IMO.