13 replies to this topic

[Mal Bolge]

We all know that PGI is never going to do anything to improve the game at this point, but theorizing about it can still be a fun forum exercise.

This is inspired by a video from a different post:

In the video he mentions that the 12v12 format in combination with maps and game modes diminishes the impact you as a player can do to shift the balance of a fight. On the whole, this makes the game less fun, and I agree. So here's an idea on how to fix this.

First, replace 12v12 with 8v8. This way it will be less concentrated fire to outright destroy any mech who accidentally stumbles upon the enemy force.

Second, let there be two lances in a team. Alpha lance has a maximum tonnage limit of 55, in other words a scouting lance for lights and mediums. Bravo lance has a minimum tonnage limit of 60, in other words an assault lance for heavies and assaults.

Third, get rid of all game modes, and instead introduce objectives. Each lance will get a primary objective and a secondary objective. The objectives for the scouting lance will be different than the objectives for the assault lance. If a lance fails to complete its primary objective, it will lose the match. This means that one lance may be victorious, while the other may fail.

The purpose here is to prevent the deathball with actual meaningful incentives. Meaning yeah alpha lance could still group up with bravo, but at the cost of failing their objective and losing the match. And failing needs to hurt. For this to work, the objectives must be designed in a way that they can't simply be ignored, they can't be completed by a single mech, and they cannot be completed quickly.

As a bonus, nascaring which everyone loves, will be much easier to counter. A single mech has a much greater chance of halting the advance of 4 mechs long enough for the the other 3 to flank them, than he has to stop 8 or more.

It will hopefully transform fights into maximum 4v4 encounters, and push them into the golden triangle mentioned in the video. In such encounters you can survive mistakes, and you as a single player have a greater impact. The video explains it a lot better, starting at 26:00.

The tonnage restrictions for lances I mentioned earlier isn't strictly required for this to work, but I though it would be cool to reintroduce scouting in a form, and the objectives of alpha lance should be optimized for lights and mediums.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The guys idea for 4v4 mode could be done if they bring back scouting and rework it

[Wildstreak]

Actually that is something he gets wrong. You can have impact in a 12 v 12, maps and modes do not determine impact of a player. What does it:
1 - Player intention (not skill)
2 - Chassis / variant / build
3 - The broken Tier / PSR system that needs fixing BADLY.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Wildstreak, on 07 March 2021 - 06:44 AM, said:

Actually that is something he gets wrong. You can have impact in a 12 v 12, maps and modes do not determine impact of a player. What does it:
1 - Player intention (not skill)
2 - Chassis / variant / build
3 - The broken Tier / PSR system that needs fixing BADLY.

Think you missed his point about MWO vs Counter Strike. No there not great game to compare directly in terms of gameplay but if it's 1v3 you can still pull that out on a consistent basis on Counter Strike. In MWO 1v3 if everyone is relatively same level of health an active weapons you are not likely to win that 1v3 vs factor in player skill and team work.

[FupDup]

Lockheed_, on 07 March 2021 - 10:13 AM, said:

12v12 dimishes the impact a player has on the team. YES, and that is why I want 16v16. What the game needs is less impact of individual players and groups.
If I want more imbalanced matches I go play Overwatch, where in 6v6 one good player can pretty much solo cary.

Ironically enough, people in Overwatch very often like to complain that they're too team-dependent and it's impossibru to carry hard enough.

As for MWO, the thing to remember is that team sizes have a big influence on chassis and weapon balancing. With more players, ranged loadouts and big mechs become stronger. With fewer players, CQB weapons and smaller mechs become stronger. The weapons and mechs are currently balanced around the 12v12 setup so any increase or decrease in player count would require massive changes to mechs and weapons to prevent some things from becoming OP or UP.

[LordNothing]

i had that tower skirmish idea where you make the game modes complement skirmish rather that provide an alternative exit condition. like for example by creating towers that give mechs within their sphere of influence certain buffs. like say you have a cryolake on the hill that ppcers can take advantage of. and you might have a blueshield tower that counters them, provided you can push that on tower. or a radar tower which provides free locks to lermers and likewise have an ams tower that counters it. thats just one example of a skirmish enhancing mode, im sure there are others you all could come up with.

SirSmokes, on 07 March 2021 - 04:02 AM, said:

The guys idea for 4v4 mode could be done if they bring back scouting and rework it

my idea for that is to replace it with 4v4 solaris. and get rid of smoke diving beacon chase and just make it skirmish. solaris would need an mm so that pugs dont have to jump through a bunch of hoops to play.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 March 2021 - 10:41 AM.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 07 March 2021 - 10:17 AM, said:

Ironically enough, people in Overwatch very often like to complain that they're too team-dependent and it's impossibru to carry hard enough.

As for MWO, the thing to remember is that team sizes have a big influence on chassis and weapon balancing. With more players, ranged loadouts and big mechs become stronger. With fewer players, CQB weapons and smaller mechs become stronger. The weapons and mechs are currently balanced around the 12v12 setup so any increase or decrease in player count would require massive changes to mechs and weapons to prevent some things from becoming OP or UP.

i think thats why solaris is so boring. you either use the 1 or 2 metas in the division or you dont win unless there is a potato on the other side. or it just becomes a potato measuring contest.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 March 2021 - 10:46 AM.

[Gagis]

The more kittens there are, the harder the pack is to herd. The smaller the team is, the more you will see actual team play, coordination, co-operation and tactics happen. 12v12 is so large everything degenerates into chaos.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LordNothing, on 07 March 2021 - 10:41 AM, said:

my idea for that is to replace it with 4v4 solaris. and get rid of smoke diving beacon chase and just make it skirmish. solaris would need an mm so that pugs dont have to jump through a bunch of hoops to play.

Better idea is rework and it's game modes and FP along with it

Lockheed_, on 07 March 2021 - 10:48 AM, said:

That's because the matchmaker is much better and has a bigger player base to draw from. The last thing I want from a team game is the ability for a player to solo carry.
If OW would be 8v8 or more, issues with throwers, leavers, smurfs would not be as bad, but they have to cater to their narcissistic demographic.

Besides that I want a game of stompy war machines to feel like I am on the battlefield, not a small gang fight.
If I could redesign MWO it would be 24vs24, but that would require completely different maps of course.

No 8v8 is for people that want more balanced gameplay

Edited by SirSmokes, 07 March 2021 - 01:14 PM.

[LordNothing]

SirSmokes, on 07 March 2021 - 01:14 PM, said:

Better idea is rework and it's game modes and FP along with it

yea, if you can find the money, time, and a more seasoned game studio that is actually capable of producing a quality mechwarrior product.

[Wildstreak]

SirSmokes, on 07 March 2021 - 08:57 AM, said:

Think you missed his point about MWO vs Counter Strike. No there not great game to compare directly in terms of gameplay but if it's 1v3 you can still pull that out on a consistent basis on Counter Strike. In MWO 1v3 if everyone is relatively same level of health an active weapons you are not likely to win that 1v3 vs factor in player skill and team work.

Think he and you missed the CS does not have weight classes as just one example plus you are making certain assumptions.

Gagis, on 07 March 2021 - 11:13 AM, said:

The smaller the team is, the more you will see actual team play, coordination, co-operation and tactics happen.

You never played any of those 5 v 5 or smaller games did you?

LordNothing, on 07 March 2021 - 06:41 PM, said:

yea, if you can find the money, time, and a more seasoned game studio that is actually capable of producing a quality mechwarrior product.

Actually after what I watched yesterday, may well be time to demand MWO2.

Edited by Wildstreak, 08 March 2021 - 10:01 AM.

[LordNothing]

im fine with mwo2. are they going to make the same mistakes they made with mwo, mw5?

[PocketYoda]

Lockheed_, on 07 March 2021 - 10:13 AM, said:

12v12 dimishes the impact a player has on the team. YES, and that is why I want 16v16. What the game needs is less impact of individual players and groups. If I want more imbalanced matches I go play Overwatch, where in 6v6 one good player can pretty much solo cary.

Wouldn't 16vs16 be a larger version of 12vs12? I know a lot like 8vs8 but i've never really considered 16vs16.. I wonder if the servers could even handle that many..

And would wait times be even longer.

[Wildstreak]

LordNothing, on 08 March 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

im fine with mwo2. are they going to make the same mistakes they made with mwo, mw5?

Depends on what part of MW5 you mean.

If you mean these 4 things, not mistakes.

If you mean stuff like invisible walls (both), worse customization, according to some bad graphics, I wish they would not.

I know about the bad AI but I think PGI is still learning that area, stuff I saw online shows not many skilled people in that field.