60 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

Meep Meep, on 12 March 2021 - 10:39 PM, said:

And this is the testing grounds not a live match? I'm not doubting you just not noticing this sameness of heat dissipation. When I'm in my stealth flea on terra the heat racks up fast and dissipates slowly but on cold map its manageable. Same with other mechs. I have an lrm spam hunstman that can pretty much spam fire endlessly on a cold map but will max its heat on a very hot map. I also have laser vomit clan mechs with a zillion double sinks and dissipation is so fast I can't tell no matter what map I'm on. So there is a difference just not the difference you were used to or prefer to have. But this is one of the only threads I can remember complaining about it so good luck!

Just tested live servers- polar, veridian bog, and caustic valley, with a corsair- total of 13 sinks including engine- they are all the same.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 12 March 2021 - 11:06 PM.

[Meep Meep]

feeWAIVER, on 12 March 2021 - 11:01 PM, said:

Just tested live servers- polar, veridian bog, and caustic valley, with a corsair- total of 13 sinks including engine- they are all the same.

Ok. But it's not going to be changed so what now?

[Gagis]

Gagis, on 12 March 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

The heat balance about 3 years ago reduced heat capacity significantly and increased heat dissipation significantly. This shifted meta away from alpha strike and towards damage per second. Overall it has been seen as a good change over the past several years.

You still notice hot maps being hot as the heat limits your sustained damage output.

I repeat myself. The core difference is fundamental redesign of the entire heat scale. The fact that a few heat sinks worth of ambient heat limits sustained dps instead of crippling hot alpha strikes is an expected consequence of that.

Play some modern loadouts for a while. Running hot mechs is harder than it used to be since you run into the cap so much easier than you used to, even if it also dissipates fast.

[Meep Meep]

Yep. Before the heat changes especially ghost heat you could boat insane amounts of alpha but had a long cooldown. Now you have less mega alpha choices and dps builds that do smaller alpha but more often are easier to manage. I like the changes overall though I think ghost heat is a bit overdone in some cases.

[feeWAIVER]

Meep Meep, on 12 March 2021 - 11:29 PM, said:

Ok. But it's not going to be changed so what now?

First I'm told I'm flat out wrong.
Then I'm told I have too many heat sinks in my heavy mech, and light mechs suffer.
Then I'm told it's different on live maps, and some maps are "more manageable" than others.
And when I take the time to test each of these theories and disprove them, this is your response.
Stay classy, Forum Warrior.

Gagis, on 12 March 2021 - 11:44 PM, said:

I repeat myself. The core difference is fundamental redesign of the entire heat scale. The fact that a few heat sinks worth of ambient heat limits sustained dps instead of crippling hot alpha strikes is an expected consequence of that.

Play some modern loadouts for a while. Running hot mechs is harder than it used to be since you run into the cap so much easier than you used to, even if it also dissipates fast.

Maps are all the same temperature, previously hot maps would give you idle heat, and cold maps would fill less heat on your initial alpha.. Maps are all dissipating heat at the same rate- if there is a difference it's virtually indistinguishable from hot to cold maps.

I remember when they did the heat rescale, and I remember them saying they wanted to improve sustained dps.
I don't remember them saying they were going to homogenize all the heat levels on every map to be the same- and I can't believe that this is working as intended.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 13 March 2021 - 12:13 AM.

[Navid A1]

@OP

I've tested all those maps (frame counting at locked FPS) to make sure the values are consistent to the ones listed in game files.

Please be clear here. When you say heat on maps are broken, do you mean that maps do not affect heat dissipation at all?... or do you mean that they don't have "enough" effect.

Also would be good if you explain your test procedure.

Even the smallest dissipation additives like 0.03 are picked up and they check out with tests and game file values.

Edited by Navid A1, 13 March 2021 - 12:14 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Navid A1, on 13 March 2021 - 12:13 AM, said:

@OP

I've tested all those maps (frame counting at locked FPS) to make sure the values are consistent to the ones listed in game files.

Please be clear here. When you say heat on maps are broken, do you mean that maps do not affect heat dissipation at all?... or do you mean that they don't have "enough" effect.

Also would be good if you explain your test procedure.

Even the smallest dissipation additives like 0.03 are picked up and they check out with tests and game file values.

I'm saying if there is a difference, it is trivial. It is not enough.

Testing method is looking at my heat meter- do hot maps give me 5% ilde heat just from walking around? No.
Is there a difference in the amount of heat an alpha generates from map to map? No.
Counting it down, can I detect a difference in how fast my mechs cool from map to map? No.
Is there any reason to adjust my playstyle based on planetary conditions? No.

[Navid A1]

feeWAIVER, on 13 March 2021 - 12:25 AM, said:

I'm saying if there is a difference, it is trivial. It is not enough.

Not being enough is different from being broken... some maps can be tuned, sure.

Quote

Testing method is looking at my heat meter


- do hot maps give me 5% ilde heat just from walking around? No.

Walking around reduces your mech's heat dissipation up to 0.2, depending on the throttle setting (100% = 0.2)
In the past, it used add 3% base heat, which led into inconsistent available heat in mechs with different heat capacity. 3% in a mech with a large heat capacity is a lot.
In a change they made in 2018, they increased the dissipation rating of all heatsinks and reduced their capacity, so engines taking away heat capacity had to go away.

Quote

Is there a difference in the amount of heat an alpha generates from map to map? No.

Yes, there is.... if you are firing a duration-based weapon, like lasers... the difference would be a a few % at each alpha.
If you are firing a weapon like PPCs, of course alpha heat is the same, you have a certain amount of heat capacity and instant heat weapons dump all their heat in the heat pool as you press the trigger, which means a constant %.

Quote

Counting it down, can I detect a difference in how fast my mechs cool from map to map? No.

You certainly can in smaller mechs.
The new implementation matches the current state of the game better. When you invest tonnage into heatsinks, you don't want the map to apply a nerf multiplier to all your heatsinks. A WHK with 28 double heat sink can lose up to 6 tons worth of heat sinks from the map setting alone, while a mech with 15 heatsinks loses only 3 tons worth of heatsinks.
That's messed up.
It is also true in reverse... you don't want to face a WHK in an ice map where the mech gets a free heatsink upgrade to 34, and can basically shoot non-stop.

Quote

Is there any reason to adjust my playstyle based on planetary conditions? No.

Your playstyle should change between different builds and chassis first and maps second, which I think is what we have now.

Edited by Navid A1, 13 March 2021 - 12:44 AM.

[Sjorpha]

As seen in this thread the map temp do matter.

I'd really like it to matter a lot more though.

In faction play for example it should make enough of a difference to motivate different dropdecks for hot and cool maps.

Currently I feel like it's perfectly fine to bring a laser vomit drop deck on any map and I don't like that, it should be the case that your mech choice is forced to consider both map heat, map optimal ranges and team strategy.

I'd be happy to see other environmental effects matter too.

[feeWAIVER]

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

feeWAIVER, on 13 March 2021 - 09:32 AM, said:

dumb meme

You have been told what the current situation is yet want to double down? Just because ambient temperature doesn't impact gameplay as much as you want doesn't mean it isn't there.

[feeWAIVER]

Monke-, on 13 March 2021 - 10:33 AM, said:

You have been told what the current situation is yet want to double down? Just because ambient temperature doesn't impact gameplay as much as you want doesn't mean it isn't there.

A minute difference that can has zero effect on gameplay is effectively null.
At this point you're arguing semantics, and I'm waiting for a better argument than "no skill wolfhounds".

Edited by feeWAIVER, 13 March 2021 - 11:01 AM.

[John Bronco]

What an embarassing thread for OP.

[feeWAIVER]

BlaizerP, on 13 March 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

What an embarassing thread for OP.

Yeah, it's super embarrassing to ask for a higher skill ceiling.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

feeWAIVER, on 13 March 2021 - 10:57 AM, said:

A minute difference that can has zero effect on gameplay is effectively null.

A small impact is not the same as no impact.

Quote

Yeah, it's super embarrassing to ask for a higher skill ceiling.

How does having actually hot maps create a higher skill ceiling?

[feeWAIVER]

Monke-, on 13 March 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

How does having actually hot maps create a higher skill ceiling?

That's a real Tier 1 question, I think that says it all.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

feeWAIVER, on 13 March 2021 - 11:18 AM, said:

That's a real Tier 1 question, I think that says it all.

How does making a hot mech slightly hotter because someone dumped a big multiplier on a map increase the skill ceiling? If anything it'd end up hurting lower skill players who don't have good heat management.

[feeWAIVER]

Lockheed_, on 13 March 2021 - 11:28 AM, said:

dude, just play the game with a decent load out and see what it does for you and stop just theory crafting and running meaningless tests.

I'll be happy to test any "decent load" you'd like to provide, unless your have any more empty platitudes to share?

[Gagis]

https://grimmechs.is...im.org/Database

I'd particularly like to recommend
https://mech.nav-alp...dd511f97_MCII-B
since it is focused on DPS but runs hot enough you ought to see the difference between maps in how long engagements you'll be able to sustain before exploding your own CT.

The differences in heat are significant enough to affect how much you can expect to be able to push with each mech, but should not be significant enough you'll be shafted for having the wrong mech in the wrong map. Players have no control over which mech they have for which map after all.

[feeWAIVER]

Gagis, on 13 March 2021 - 11:43 AM, said:

https://grimmechs.is...im.org/Database

I'd particularly like to recommend
https://mech.nav-alp...dd511f97_MCII-B
since it is focused on DPS but runs hot enough you ought to see the difference between maps in how long engagements you'll be able to sustain before exploding your own CT.

The differences in heat are significant enough to affect how much you can expect to be able to push with each mech, but should not be significant enough you'll be shafted for having the wrong mech in the wrong map. Players have no control over which mech they have for which map after all.

Just tested- constant moving and gunning with override on.. Used a stopwatch to time it.
on Polar Highlands, it took 28 seconds to overheat and 58 seconds to explode.
On Terra Therma, it took 30 seconds to overheat, and 54 seconds to explode.


The big variable here is how often your guns jam, as any guns jamming provides rapid cooldown.
So basically, they're the same.

I dropped 20 mill and 91 skill points for that experiment. You do the next one.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 13 March 2021 - 12:15 PM.