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Patch Notes - 1.4.239.0 - 16-March-2021


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#641 Culnan

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 02:22 PM

View PostSirSmokes, on 17 March 2021 - 12:32 PM, said:

BUT BUT NERF! LOL


Maybe you should actually read the criticisms about this change instead of, whatever it is you've been doing so far. It's generally focussed on either 'the longer cooldown makes the weapon unfun' or 'this only makes PPCs viable for sniping'. Nobody has said that sniper poptarts have been nerfed, rather they're the viable only playstyle for the weapon now (which is a good chunk of the problem (though imo these cooldowns are just too long regardless, I've played enough of this game to know I won't enjoy 6-7 second cooldowns), as I did enjoy the occasional brawl with both ppcs and gauss).

So the revelation that there a lot of sniper poptarts atm is hardly the point against the 'this patch is bad' crowd you seem to think it is.

#642 Tranderas

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 02:22 PM

I hope there will be a text transcript of the podcasts going up soon. I can't necessarily listen to that long of a video.

People have beaten the numbers to death so I don't want to address that in this post. What I wanted to give my input on is the overall goals that the patch supposedly hoped to achieve.

Re, each gauss having its own niche: I think this is a good thing! But this was the wrong way to do it. They should be like you think when you hear the names- light gauss light, small damage, fast projectile; gauss, middle of the road; heavy, large slug (doesn't travel far) but beeg damage. And they should all be viable at their range brackets. Light gauss was the outlier in that regard, being high dps but still not enough to justify the tonnage, and any future patch should address this discrepancy.

Re, each PPC having its own niche: This, too, is a good idea! But we need to keep in mind that aside from ERPPCs most of the PPCs aren't used on their own, but rather as auxiliary weapons. For example, 2 snub PPCs + 1 AC20 is a common MAD-3R build. The PPCs are there to supplement the AC20. Likewise the 4lb10 + 1 sppc Annihilator build runs the snub as an extra punch when it can spare heat. Any attempt to address the roles of these weapons should consider that not every weapon needs to be the star of its show. It's fine for lppcs to be backups or snubs to support lb20s. Just as long as everything feels strong, I'm happy.

Re, MASC: I have no idea why anyone would think MASC's only role should be straight-line speed. Were that line of thinking true, most MASC-capable mechs simply would not run it. No one would've bought the Spirit Bear under that philosophy after engine desync because it can only move because of its MASC. Likewise the stealth Flea is only better than the Pirate's Bane because of its MASC, and even then only because of MASC's boost to agility. These changes need to be reverted, and if anything the bigger MASCs need to be improved from their previous iterations unless/until agility is improved across the board.

Re, MRM health boosts: This implies that AMS is too strong which I find laughable. It's actually too weak, being a purely-defensive tonnage use that's entirely negated by enemy team composition. The similarly-defensive ECM is still useful against a team with 0 missiles due to its function against target identification. Instead of indirect nerfs to AMS it could use either a direct or indirect buff (I'm looking at laser AMS specifically, which is far too hot to justify being run at all).

Re, AC velocity buffs: Positive progress, but not far enough, and the wording made it sound like all ACs (including LBs and UACs) were getting the buff, confusing many in the community not familiar with how Matt words things. Consider an edit to the language used to describe changes in the future.

Re volume change: For the first time in my years playing I was able to start the game up in my bedroom and not hear the login sequence in the kitchen where I go to make tea after I start a program, so thank you.

Re proposed future map changes: I urge you to consider not just sight lines and spawns of some maps, but also their size. I played a polar game this week in which the teams went eight full minutes without seeing each other. I average five minutes of walking. I'd like the new level designer to consider making maps (grim, alpine, polar) smaller and to reduce the prevalence of central structures around which people "nascar" (grim, mining, canyon). I also request that the designer look at making the blizzard conditions of Frozen City less blinding as I find those visibility conditions just as bad as Hibernal's lighting issues.

Re, JayZ's input on trials: Thank you for listening to the community on this one thing, at least. It's unfortunate that the person least qualified to balance the game- someone who has admitted on forums that he hasn't played the game in a year as recently as this week- was allowed to tweak the builds before they were put live, but this is progress.

Most important to me out of all of this is that Russ has allowed Daeron more freedom to interact with the community than Tina ever had, and it's refreshing to have a CM openly willing to admit to PGI's mistakes. Thanks for that, and thanks for reading.

Edited to clarify my comments about MASC.

Edited by Tranderas, 17 March 2021 - 02:28 PM.


#643 Arfur Faulkes Hake

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 03:06 PM

Experiences of the Patch.

PPCs and Gauss have a 20% increase in Damge and 10% decrease in DPS.
Somewhat good for Cover fighting, but the DPS decrease makes both weapon systems even less competetive then before.

Light PPCs and Gauss 40% increase in damge for a massive 15% decrease in DPS.
The biggest loosers in the Patch and no longer competetive except for niche applications.

Snubnose PPC's still as useless as ever.
(What they need is not more dmg but less heat to bring them more in line as a AC20 complement / alternative)

To increase the damage for a lower firing rate is a good idea as it would set apart the weapon systems from Lasers and Autocannons, but this could have been done without decreasing the DPS.

Even before the Patch PPCs where only used in specialised mechs that are either heavily quirked for it, or for specialised Harrasers like the Shadow Cat, which can use them in conjunction with Jump Jets and speed, without much counter fire.

The reason for the low number of useres is the low overall DPS, making "Laser Vomits" and other builds more viable.

And with low DPS i mean practical DPS of the mech, talking into consideration weight, weight for heatsinks, and heat.

The only PPC/Gauss mech that didn't neccessarily suffer from this patch are maybe the Fafnir since its sides won't explode as fast.

And the AWESOME 8Q.
The DPS didn't suffer too much since it was, for this specific 3 heavy PPC build, limited by heat before the Patch, and is now limited by DPS making it actually easier to play since one doesn't need to pay such high attention to the heat management.
And the intimidation/can opening capabilities make up for the low DPS.

My last thoughtis that i have no idea why it seemed necessarie to nerve MASC.
I certainly did not perceive it as a problem (unlike STEALTH) and i don't know any other players who perveived it as a problem.

The only thing that'S going to do is piss of light mech pilots.

I hope this didn't come over as whing or bitching;
i tried to keep it as constructive as possible.

#644 X Player

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 03:19 PM

View PostSirSmokes, on 17 March 2021 - 12:30 AM, said:

Its a buff


It's a buff to front loaded damage, but a nerf to dps. In my books that is a nerf. Feel free to disagree.

#645 EWDijkstra

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 03:38 PM

View PostDaeron Katz, on 17 March 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Hello all, I've been spending the last two days reading the forum threads, monitoring Twitch chats, and reading all the feedback sent to me through email, Discord, Twitter, etc. As you might imagine, as this is already a 34 page thread, the amount of feedback has been substantial.

I'm just making a quick post to let you know that Matt and I will be addressing this patch, future patches, Quarter 2 development, the overall MWO Roadmap, and more in a Dev Vlog this week. In the meantime, continue with the feedback, venting, or anything else you want to get across to us.


Good to hear. There were some good things in this patch, but they've been all but undone by the very odd blanket change to PPC and Gauss weapons (forcing them into a cartoonishly extreme form of long range-only weaponry without addressing any of their balancing problems/effectively identical functionality) and the nerf to MASC.

The worst issues I perceive are:
  • Why did the weapon and equipment changes seem to openly ignore community feedback?
  • While the velocity change makes gunnery more user-friendly, it lowers necessary skill - is this a design direction the team intends on following?
  • The MASC nerf is forcing the game to more closely mimic table top - is this a design direction the team intends on following?
  • Even though you guys were working through to the deadline, we shouldn't have had a 24-hour lead on the patch notes.


#646 KursedVixen

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 03:54 PM

View PostX Player, on 17 March 2021 - 03:19 PM, said:

It's a buff to front loaded damage, but a nerf to dps. In my books that is a nerf. Feel free to disagree.
Nerf to all guass but heavy nerf to all PPCs, nerf to masc so mainly nerfs and only a buff to Heavy guass.

Edited by KursedVixen, 17 March 2021 - 03:57 PM.


#647 Gen Lee

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 04:26 PM

Regarding c-ERPPCs, I have noticed that I'm usually doing more damage per match running them exclusively, but at the same time, the cooldown forces you to wait too long in between shots, preventing you from firing another dual shot in some critical moments. There are times when you need to fire a couple of them when your heat won't spike over 100%, or even risk damage to your mech by slightly overheating in dire moments, but you can't due to the cooldown.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is ghost heat. Were those values adjusted as well? I'm just wondering if they increased ghost heat or left it the same, Information like that would be useful, and it wouldn't be the first time PGI changed something and never said a word.

I used to be able to fire three c-ERPPCs with my Vapor Eagle build and not quite hit 100% heat, but now it usually results in a suicide, because by the time your mech may have cooled down to below 100%, you very well could blow both your side torsos off. It just happened to me, by accident, in a match where I hit the wrong key and my groupings hadn't been changed. In mech lab. I tested in testing grounds to see if it will always kill you, and you can survive depending on which components take damage, but if your side torsos keep taking damage instead of other parts being damaged, you absolutely will die.

#648 Albert C

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 05:35 PM

View Postnopempele, on 17 March 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

Unsurprisingly, after the patch it's a total PPC galore. Nothing but PPC poptarts everywhere, jumping and camping, jumping and camping...

Reminds me of the time PGI buffed the LRMs and it was nothing but LRM all over the place and they had tp hastingly revert it. Anyone remembers that?

Anyway, just my 2 cents regarding the balance. Revert all the changes. PPCs were completely fine. You have not fixed anything, but actually made the camping meta even more prominent. It's some particular disbalanced mechs that still need addressing (like the infamous Vapor Eagle). I know that there is a fan club for abusing the Vapor Eagle meta, but honestly, it's the most OP mech I've ever seen. Fast, too well armored, with jumpjets, nimble silhoutte, good hard points... No wonder you are guaranteed to see at least several of them in each match.

Now the Light Gauss does need a buff. It's main problem is it's tonnage as it provides too little damage for its mass. And due to the introduced gauss "charging" mechanic it is too cumbersome to be used in the battle. You are much better switching it to an AC2/AC5. So focus on fixing that instead of sending a wrecking ball towards the whole game balance.

Light PPCs might need a small buff. But a very subtle one. Because you can easilly carry multiple of them (not so much with the Light Gauss).

And that's basically it.

VGL is considered a good Clan mech not because of its armor(standard 55 tons) or quirk(vgl-1 jumpjets) but its versatility to run mutiple builds easily, atm, ppc, dakka or whatever. It's hardpoint position and variaty give you a lot of options and the standard battlemech upgrades are not limited by omnipods that are (suprisingly in many cases)plaguing a lot of mechs(probably one of the reasons you see battlemechs like MCII or KDK more often than omnis).

#649 Big-G

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 05:36 PM

I got so fed up with this change I'm actually rejigging each build I have that's got a PPC in it, to be only laser now. Posted Image

#650 ccrider

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 05:41 PM

View PostDaeron Katz, on 17 March 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Hello all, I've been spending the last two days reading the forum threads, monitoring Twitch chats, and reading all the feedback sent to me through email, Discord, Twitter, etc. As you might imagine, as this is already a 34 page thread, the amount of feedback has been substantial.

I'm just making a quick post to let you know that Matt and I will be addressing this patch, future patches, Quarter 2 development, the overall MWO Roadmap, and more in a Dev Vlog this week. In the meantime, continue with the feedback, venting, or anything else you want to get across to us.


Here's the deal as I see it; making adjustments after a patch is normal, even expected in a game. Adjusting to shifting metas keeps the game interesting. But, and this is a BIG but, all changes should come from PGI and never from the "community." The community is ********; we can't agree on anything (40 people, their alts and a few ball washers do not constitute the entirety of the "community" by-the-way, ********). No company allows the customers to dictate it's course and stays in business. Going out of the way to change **** based on a vocal, (vocal being the nicest way to describe some of the crying 30-50 year-old goddam babies in this game) minority is not going to shift this game suddenly into a relevant triple A title that attracts all the cool kids and launches the careers of dozens of top-end streamers. This is a niche game based on a decades old IP and is never gonna be more than that. Christ, I'd love a huge *** buff to the stuff I like, but many players would hate that and so my opinion on changes shouldn't be used anymore that any of the other dipshits who act like their opinions are beloved by everyone in the game. It's better if EVERYONE deals with whatever PGI puts out; the game is balanced by the fact that we all have to adjust to the changes and none of us dictate those changes to PGI so we have an immediate advantage. FFS, this thread is the most whiny-*** thing I've ever witnessed in my years of traversing the brown sea and everyone here only got older and should be more mature than they were back in 2012. Instead, everyone's a spoiled baby crying about ******* EVERYTHING and it's making me feel like some basement dwelling neckbeard to even be associated with this "community." Suck it up, wait for adjustments to things after a month or so and stop ******* crying.

#651 Far Reach

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 06:46 PM

Tried out my MAD IIc. Full ER laser vomit plus a CERPPC for added sauce. Used to alpha at 70 - 80% heat, even on the hottest maps. Spicy and entertaining to play, yet strangely heat viable... at least it used to be.

It now hits 95% on heat neutral maps. That's just one build destroyed - I don't really want to test the others out, like someone else said: (I'm not that masochistic).
I dunno if anyone else conceived it before me, but I was kinda proud, having thought-up that setup AND it was viable.

I guess that's in past tense now.
Depressing.

Edited by Far Reach, 17 March 2021 - 06:47 PM.


#652 Voice of Kerensky

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 06:59 PM

Well ... Everything is in the best PGI traditions. Thanks! Didn't disappoint.
I'm talking about the tradition, when the PGI tries to change one thing, strange and inexplicable things happen in a completely different area. By changing one thing, PGIs are breaking something else.
This time the hit reg was the victim.
Yesterday, a comrade told me that his shots from the PPC fly through the enemy's mech without causing any harm, as if the enemy's mech is transparent to the weapon.
And what do you think? Yesterday I played 4 x LB-10X Fafnir on Crimson Strait. Shooting from a distance of about 150 - 200 meters at the enemy Corsair, I sight that three of my alpha blows went through this Corsair without harming him.
Gg, PGI.

#653 RileyRackham

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:30 PM

Can the weapon stats just be changed to match the latest Battletech manual? It's a good baseline and nerfing things and changing all this stuff constantly is frustrating. What is needed is maybe some new maps, and really cut down on the loading screens and loading times. it's like 5-10 minutes of loading to play a 5-15 minute match. Loading to get the events list, loading to get in the mech lab, loading to get in the skill tree, loading to get in the store, loading to vote for maps, loading to load the map, loading to load the match, then a big wait for a landing/loading animation. According to the latest Steam Hardware Survey, over 90% of players have 8GB+ of RAM (56% > 16GB), and 74% have >4GB video RAM. Can't the game menus and stuff be just loaded in full already and then load the map and mechs during the join countdown?

#654 Tommy Atkins

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:48 PM

It's been a couple of years since the last weapon-balance patch, and I'd forgotten how spicy a balance change can make the community get.

Look: the meta has changed. It's changed before. It'll almost certainly change again.

Adapt and move on.

#655 ImperialKnight

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:33 PM

I wish PGI would have just left MWO alone. Every time they touch it, it becomes worse.

Players: we want longer time to kill
PGI: gotcha, MOAR DAMAGE and MOAR EASY TO HIT THINGS

#656 Voice of Kerensky

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:52 PM

View Postkapusta11, on 17 March 2021 - 12:22 PM, said:

I don't understand why people are complaining. Sniper weapons got better at sniping but weaker when pushed. Not everything has to be dps, that's boring and dps niche is already filled by the autocannons.


Because now the PPCs is becoming an elite weapon only for very highly experienced, smart and accurate players with good computer iron.
As you can imagine, the vast majority of MWO players do not have these fourth qualities in equal measure (for example, it is very difficult for me to play on PPCs with my FPS 15-20).
PPCs and before these changes were demanding weapons for the quality of the player. After this change, the PPCs for the middle and bottom player got worse.
Highly skilled and highly accurate players will certainly notice the changes, but they will be able to adapt to them and even benefit from them. But the average player will not be able to use them successfully. Thus, the PGI made the PPCs an elite weapon.
In principle, almost everything that I have just described can be projected onto GRs. The only difference is that here the PGI could not resist and again showed their nature, which hates the Clans faction.

Edited by Voice of Kerensky, 17 March 2021 - 10:30 PM.


#657 xxREVxx

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 10:34 PM

ER PPC's were fine just the way they were. I don't know what takes longer now,...Finding a match or the ER Peeps recycle time! Keep the damage,...didn't want it, didn't need it.

#658 Toast3r

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 11:31 PM

Feedback:

This patch does not make the game any more fun, and if the goal was to make the game more fun, I think this patch actually moves in exactly the wrong direction for most players.

It seems like this patch is aimed more towards achieving balance akin to the balance in rock-paper-scissors.
  • Did you bring a push deck vs someone who brought trade-centric ppcs and gauss? You win if you push because they won't be able to keep up with your dps by a long shot. It won't be close.
  • Did you bring a push deck vs a ranged ac dps deck (particularly ac2s)? You lose if you try to push into that! They'll do too much damage before you get in range.
  • Did you bring a ppc and trade-centric deck vs a slow, heavy ac dps deck that can't close? You win because you hit even harder now with the small peeks they need to get out damage! (Although, maybe the ppc deck loses here too now because -20% dps is a lot, and even an annihilator can close distance on most maps.)
Yes, weapons should serve unique roles, but forcing them too tightly into a specific role is bad too. I don't think anyone wants matches to be decided ahead of time by the mechlab rock-paper-scissors game. Not to mention, 7s is an eternity, and nothing sucks worse in a game than dying while you are literally unable to do anything.

That being said, I don't think this patch changed too much other than just making PPCs harder for the average player to use. The competitive players who enjoyed playing PPCs to trade before will do just as well if not better. Similarly, 2ppc mechs that were easier to play with more heat efficiency were hurt while it seems like mechs with 3-4 ppcs are stronger traders as they were more limited by cooling than cooldown anyways.

I just don't think this patch and its changes serve the community well at all. If anything, it serves more competitive players more than anyone else, as, in my experience, they are the players that enjoy PPC trading the most. Don't get me wrong, that's nice ot have a patch that seems to favor top-down balance. It's just, I think there are other ideas that the community and the balance gulag have discussed and communicated with Daeron and PGI that would make the game more fun for everyone, not primarily the competitive players among us.

The biggest letdown is that despite how well communication seemed to be going with Daeron as the new community manager, it seems like somehow someone or some people within PGI just overrode everything and decided to go their own way with the balance changes blindsiding everyone else in the process. These changes came out of left field with little context as to how or if this fits into the dialogue that seemed to be going well, and now we're all just wondering if it's back to the status quo where the community just has to wait and wonder. It's not enough to have the dialogue with Daeron (and Matt?) if they remain isolated from the person or people making final decisions about what makes it into patches. I don't think anyone expects PGI to adopt every change suggested exactly as suggested, and I expect them to come up with and implement some changes of their own. We just want to why this was the first thing that was changed. What is being considered next? How does this fit in with what was discussed? A paragraph would suffice. Cut down on what is written about the exact changes themselves if necessary. The big picture is more important.

Finally, I don't understand why the trial mechs were modified from what was submitted. Jay Z is one of the best players in the game. I'm sure he'd beat me 99 times out of 100 in a 1v1, but he's also super helpful and would do his damnedest to help make that 98 of 100 then 97 of 100 and so on. Anyone who has talked to him or seen his stream knows just how much he wants to help all players and just how much effort he puts into that. Trust that his builds are good and don't mess with them or at least have a back and forth about changes if you do seriously want to make them.

Edited by Toast3r, 17 March 2021 - 11:38 PM.


#659 Davegt27

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Posted 17 March 2021 - 11:49 PM

I removed all the PPCs from all my Mechs, and I will be removing all the gauss from my Mechs

thanks PGI

#660 Z Cassel

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 12:16 AM

Honestly what I miss most is competent and balanced teams. I statistically unreasonably end up on teams that get stomped while doing in the upper 1/3 damage and getting 2+ kills or kmdds in a match and still lose and psr down. I am tired of it. You want to fix weapons? Destroy the points based on damage and have it based on damage absorbed while staying alive.





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