801 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

So you made already too hot weapons, even hotter, for a bit damage? Come on guys... And you're not creating a niche when they all try to achieve the same thing. All you've done is made worse sniper weapons. :I

[The pessimistic optimist]

Heavy Money, on 15 March 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

ERPPCs were too much of a one-size-fits-all weapon

Jack of all trades energy AC

Edited by SirSmokes, 15 March 2021 - 01:24 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 15 March 2021 - 01:23 PM, said:

So you made already too hot weapons, even hotter, for a bit damage? Come on guys... And you're not creating a niche when they all try to achieve the same thing. All you've done is made worse sniper weapons. :I

HPS was decreased more than DPS was decreased, so really they aren't hotter. The lower DPS is more what I'm worried about, especially for Gauss.

[tee5]

I give you a friendly advice:


Just remove the Weapon-"balance"-changes and the MASC-changes from the Patch.
And give it a good second thought.

Otherwise you will hear a lot of complaints, from a lot of people.

Just swallow your pride and do it.

[MechWarrior414712]

And seems like PGI decided to completely pull the plug off the failed experiment weapon also known as Light Gauss. 2 DPS at 12 tons will make it the absolute worst dps/ton weapon in the game by two miles, instead of a mile before the patch.

I don't think pinpoint is enough of a reason for this when you think about it for example if you'd put the same tonnage investment in to ac2's you'd have triple the dps with same range & vel values, while needing 3 clicks to match the one click of Lgauss. And don't forget the charge time which also adds in to the dps of lgauss making it lower than it actually is. Lol.

Same does apply to normal gauss rifles.

[C337Skymaster]

Arnold The Governator, on 15 March 2021 - 12:03 PM, said:

Instead of screaming that the sky is falling with every balance patch change, I will agree and state that PGI shouldn't be touching heat values on anything until ghost heat is fixed and/or we get a general buff on all global SHS/DHS. I'm not really worried about map fixes (but yes please hire someone if they can fix the invisible wall issues on some maps) but someone that properly understands heat scaling from the development team.

Unfortunately, they said in an interview several years ago that the invisible walls are a limitation of the CryEngine mesh, that Crysis maps were basically the size of a single MWO grid square, and the only way to fix that issue is to transition to a new graphics engine. More recently they've said it would take 4 years and most of their budget just to get a new engine back to Open Beta from 2012.

[byter75]

My initial thoughts on the balance changes:

Sniper changes (ppc/gauss):

• Long cooldown generally feels worse to play.
  
• More pinpoint dmg feels worse to receive (particularly for smaller mechs)
  
• Mostly just ignore IS changes, the main effect on the game is with clan ppc/gauss.

AC velocity changes:

• Ignore clan AC, Ignore IS ac5-20
  
• Only one that matters is ac2. (Did ac2 boats really need help?)

MRM changes:

• Ignore mrm10 spread
  
• High missile count & velocity makes mrm already one of the more ams resistant weapon systems. Why?

Masc changes:

• Agility helps smaller mechs more*
  
• Speed helps larger mechs more**
  
• Did smaller masc mechs really need to be nerfed?
  
• Larger masc mechs did need some love.

*Good base agility, easier to dodge enemy fire, can more easily just take larger engine
**Poor base agility, big target, slow, bigger engines give relatively low returns on investment

Miscellaneous notes:

• HGauss is already plenty strong, though it’s mostly a minor hp buff
  
• Whist IS gauss is relatively tanky, it is usually not worth the additional 2 tons & 1 slot.
  
• Masc values should consider the differences in clan & IS tech (and their playstyles). IS mechs often take bigger masc and their tech is much more tonnage/slot hungry.

All in all, there's a lot of changes that can be mostly ignored. Weapons like IS PPCs (particularly underperformers like LPPCS) are still generally not gonna be played. I am worried that these changes will mostly just encourage me to shelve my snipers and smaller masc mechs. ... which is mostly just my clan ppc boats and mechs like the flea/shadowcat.

(also for those who are interested, I have composed a document giving my thoughts on the new trial mechs: https://docs.google....KQLBKzpafY/edit)

Edited by byter75, 16 March 2021 - 02:53 PM.

[morosis]

i am not the best player around but on the whole i dont understand this patch at all.

you said you were going to listen and make this a community driven patch. nobody in the community seems to be stepping forward and saying "yes, this is what i asked for" so who drove these changes?

taking the masc change alone - this kind of nerf to the system makes me think someone called it out as a huge game balance issue. that makes no sense. nobody thought masc was breaking the game for it to get nerfed like this. its a nerf that ruins multiple chassis movement abilities - literally the exact opposite of what the community was asking for.

everything that needs to be said about the weapon changes has been said in previous posts, so i wont dwell on details that have already been covered. but i am worried that this undoes all the goodwill you have earned in the last 4-5 months. you promised us you would listen to the community. you promised this time would be different and you wouldnt just go do whatever you wanted. did you lie? or how is daeron supposed to message this? this is not listening, at all, in any way, to the community.

Edited by morosis, 15 March 2021 - 01:52 PM.

[RockmachinE]

I was actually dumbfounded when I read these new cooldown values and kept checking if I have read some old patch or something by accident.

Increasing cooldown so much will render PPC and Gauss weapon systems useless.

With all the negative feedback you are getting you can STILL RETHINK AND NOT IMPLEMENT these choices.

Such drastic change was a big mistake, the game was not ideal but ok - in terms of weapon usage most weapon systems were used, now you've effectively rendered PPCs and Gauss useless. Long cooldowns are simply not worth any damage and leave you dead in the water. This might actually hurt MWO too much at this stage.

I've been here since beta, this is making me seriously rethink if I'll keep playing the game.

DO NOT DO THIS!

[Bowelhacker]

If these things are all bad for snipers and their pissy little poptarting tactics then it's all for the good.

[Tesunie]

I O O percent KongLord, on 15 March 2021 - 12:47 PM, said:

Ignoring your borderline cringy suggestion of a bad adder, I agree but on different terms. Some of the builds are nowhere near the optimization they should be if given in the hands of a new player, like the commando trading CT armor for arm??? armor???
Crab running 49.5???
Energy boats with 16dhs? That grasshopper works with 16 if it had skills... but it doesn't... For whammy in comparision, Black knight runs the same build with 20dhs WITH skills and it still screams hallelujah about the heat.

As for the trials, I don't really care that much since I won't end up using them. But some of those will be awful to play.

That Adder actually ran second place on the public trial suggestion board.

Spoiler

For new players, it provides an alternative to the ever popular laser spam builds (all the other designs at the time were 5 ERML builds almost across the whole board). It can shoot nearly non-stop without concern for heat. When it jams you still had 3 ERSLs to fall back on if it was close combat. As most new players stand still and stare at their opponents (as they learn all they need to do for good game play), the build could work well for new players. The UAC2 also provided good "tracer rounds", so they can learn how to aim better with it as they grow.

Anyway...

But, besides that.The commando should have it's arm armor removed to 1 point in each (because I hate seeing the alerts for no armor in a location) for better maxing out of the CT. I also tend to run with more head armor, but for a light... Meh.

The Crab actually runs at 87.4 if I'm looking at the speed correctly. However, my complaint would be that it's got that standard 6 MPL build that is far too commonly seen in the trial mechs. I'd rather show how different weapons can produce good synergy together, and would have preferred to have seen my own build up there. Two LLs and 4 ERMLs. (Can even be made deadly with 3 LLs and 3 ERMLs, but it's trickier to operate well... so not a "new player" recommendation.) Same basic punch as the 6 MPL build, similar heat... but has longer ranges and shows a good synergising weapon set.

Warhammer with 6 MLs and 3 LPLs? One alpha and I'm thinking it's probably going to shut down... New players are likely to panic and shoot "all Da' weepons!" and much like a stock Nova Prime... it's not going to be a good thing to see.

The Grasshopper may operate now and looks solid at a quick glance... but with HPPCs heat going WAY up... It is going to be hard pressed after the patch I suspect. Combine that with 17 points of rear armor? What does it have so much rear armor?

We could go on and dig into all of them... but most of those builds are not exactly "new player friendly" for some reason or another.

[minnowzzz]

I think none of the weapon or equipment changes should go in, I would go completely back to the drawing board and wait for Q2 to add them, you completely killed any of the little life that the light guass rifle had.

[cougurt]

Bowelhacker, on 15 March 2021 - 01:56 PM, said:

If these things are all bad for snipers and their pissy little poptarting tactics then it's all for the good.

NSR bot detected.

[TheArisen]

The weapon and MASC changes aren't what I'd ever suggest. I'm just going to suggest at a minimum maintaining the DPS those weapons had before and maybe even consider raising it in certain cases like Lppc & snubppc. MASC having more time to be used is cool but some mechs really need those mobility buffs to function.

The new map guy sounds excellent and I look forward to hearing more about what they'll be doing. Just please reconsider these changes.

[RockmachinE]

crazytimes, on 15 March 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

I feel the light gauss cool down is meant to nerf precisely one player. You know you've made it when you get patched out of a game.

That's literally me. I've been running a dual Light Gauss champion and the only thing that made it worth was the 2s cooldown (after quirks/skills). No Way I'm waiting 5 seconds to shoot this just to get 6 extra dmg. Its just sad. I mean out of all the weapon systems to mess up LGauss was not it. There were like 3 people that used Lgauss...

I don't know man. The weapon balance was in an OK place, tweaing sure...major changes like this might just kill this game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tesunie, on 15 March 2021 - 01:56 PM, said:

The Grasshopper may operate now and looks solid at a quick glance... but with HPPCs heat going WAY up... It is going to be hard pressed after the patch I suspect. Combine that with 17 points of rear armor? What does it have so much rear armor?

For the 1000th time, HPS actually went DOWN. Jesus people.

It has rear armor because new players take a year and a half to realize someone is shooting their back. Admittedly, it might be a little too much.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 March 2021 - 02:16 PM.

[Yucassha]

You guys kinda just took feedback and uh....threw it in the trash with as much gusto as you could manage huh. I appreciated the effort in trying to make changes but you need to actually not punish your most skilled pilots just because they can aim.

[Tesunie]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 March 2021 - 02:14 PM, said:

For the 1000th time, HPS actually went DOWN. Jesus people.

It has rear armor because new players take a year and a half to realize someone is shooting their back. Admittedly, it might be a little too much.

I'm more worried about the spike of heat caused by two HPPCs shooting at once overheating the mech in a less than favorable way. It's a change I'd have to really try first, but I find it concerning for the Grasshopper build in question.

And I don't mind additional back armor on trial mechs for your exact stated reason, but 17 points may be a mite bit too high when the Warhammer has, what, 6 rear armor in comparison?

[Alstren]

[Raydeen]

Overall the changes are a little heavy handed. I understand PGI does not care and wants the game played only their way. Preferably on their other not free game. I see that the community has some good ideas but i also see they don't matter. PGI has two tools in the tool box the buffer and nerf hammer, and balance is not in their dictionary. This game is old there should only be fine tuning being done. The constant brawling will get old fast, in fact it already is. Notice that the map rotation is going short range. Best to put those long range weapons away unless you run a hack or are a crack shot.