400 replies to this topic

[MyriadDigits]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 10:18 AM, said:

Sure if you expose to half their team and all focus you fine.. but (and by insta I mean under 4 seconds).. you should not be cored and near death in under 4 seconds seconds in a heavy or assault. There are too many mechs/builds that can do that alone, let alone two hitting you. A single mech should not be that strong.. THAT is unfunning, and that is whats wrong with low TTK.

150 damage in 4 seconds, not a whole lot of builds that can do that one their own, and basically all of the ones that can are close range and fire in a manner that makes spreading that damage likely (rockets, ATM, UAC20/10, MRM).

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 10:18 AM, said:

Heck a single ac2 boat from 800m can bring you to your knees in that amount of time.. just silly how ac2's core.. and yes I twist

8AC2 DWF only pumps out about 90 damage in 4 seconds.

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 10:22 AM, said:

Never liked pgi's velocity increase on ac2's..

You're right I read it wrong.. i saw clan ac's buffed and thought that included uac's. Still not sure why Cauldron thinks ac's need less heat.. they're not being used because they are hot but because uac's are too strong. Nerf uac's if you want people to use non-uac ac's.. but that'll never happen.. too many like that sweet and easy damage.

Cauldron's gameplan as I understand it is to make ACs/cACs more attractive for long term sustain DPS. UACs will still boast better burst firepower, but in the long slugfests you dream of standard ACs would end up on top.

[Peter2k]

Gagis, on 23 March 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

You can't get insta-cored unless you expose yourself to the entire enemy team.

If you expose yourself to the entire enemy team, no amount of armour buffs, weapon nerf and unfunning of the game will save you.

2v1 has half the TTK no matter what. 12v1 has no TTK at all, and will never do.

Shrugs

I remember a time when Russ said the reason we do not have true double heatsinks is because a Jenner can core an atlas from behind too fast if it where really double the rate

How far firepower has come

I would really one day have love a PTS where we test, for the luzl at least, just doubling armor again, or structure
Or something alike
But then, I can manage

Comp players can

More worried about new players
But frankly I have no quarry in this

Still

I remember having more fun when there was less firepower on the field

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 09:57 AM, said:

Unless you go full call of duty (call of mechwarrior?) with agility buffs and make heavies and assaults move like lights and mediums.. bunny hopping every second.. buffing weapons will melt armor much quicker then before.

So everyone will have more viable builds.. you do realize that means TTK will be drastically reduced. Is this what gulag wants? No one wants this.. I don't get it..

Once again this just makes it sound like you want imbalance built in to the game. That's a terrible mentality, and makes it harder on new players.

If you personally want to make it harder on yourself you are free to make SHS, STD engine builds with no endo or ferro. Knock yourself out. The rest of us want balance.

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 10:04 AM, said:

You all want to use weapons as a crutch.. relying on op weapons to do well. What makes this game stand out from most others is that it's focused on teamplay, good positioning, situational awareness and all that good stuff that you have to put more than two brain cells together and think about.. it's not just run-and- gun which is for the most part the direction CAULDRON changes will take this game.

The shorter the match the less you care about a game and the less effort you put into it. Lather rinse repeat.. boooring.

I dream of a game where matches last at least 10 minutes.. where you can't' get insta-cored and battles feel like BATTLES!

Once again, it is still easily possible to make bad builds. The Cauldron wants all optimized builds to be balanced, not bad builds.

No one wants crutches, we want balance. If loadouts are balanced, then weapons aren't OP and therefore aren't crutches.

[DAEDALOS513]

Peter2k, on 23 March 2021 - 10:52 AM, said:

Shrugs

I remember a time when Russ said the reason we do not have true double heatsinks is because a Jenner can core an atlas from behind too fast if it where really double the rate

How far firepower has come

I would really one day have love a PTS where we test, for the luzl at least, just doubling armor again, or structure
Or something alike
But then, I can manage

Comp players can

More worried about new players
But frankly I have no quarry in this

Still

I remember having more fun when there was less firepower on the field

I know exactly how you feel and would love to see a pts like that!

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 10:22 AM, said:

Never liked pgi's velocity increase on ac2's..

You're right I read it wrong.. i saw clan ac's buffed and thought that included uac's. Still not sure why Cauldron thinks ac's need less heat.. they're not being used because they are hot but because uac's are too strong. Nerf uac's if you want people to use non-uac ac's.. but that'll never happen.. too many like that sweet and easy damage.

UACs have a longer cooldown and are hotter and have lower velocity. Regular ACs run cooler and therefore can be combined with energy weapons to supplement their damage and be able to sustain more DPS. Its a tradeoff. I can see strengths and weaknesses there. Watch the video on reddit. Over time the regular ACs can put out the same level of damage.

Maybe the values aren't perfect, but the philosophy is sound.

You'll also notice that Clan ACs get one less pellet than the Ultras, which means Clan AC5s will behave more like IS AC5s.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 March 2021 - 11:04 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

MyriadDigits, on 23 March 2021 - 10:45 AM, said:

150 damage in 4 seconds, not a whole lot of builds that can do that one their own, and basically all of the ones that can are close range and fire in a manner that makes spreading that damage likely (rockets, ATM, UAC20/10, MRM).



8AC2 DWF only pumps out about 90 damage in 4 seconds.




Cauldron's gameplan as I understand it is to make ACs/cACs more attractive for long term sustain DPS. UACs will still boast better burst firepower, but in the long slugfests you dream of standard ACs would end up on top.

I don't run meta mechs.. i run literally every mech available. So I'm just telling you my experience and how fast one can get cored in non-meta.

Compers mostly run the best mechs with the best hit boxes and thus the source of their desire to beef up weapons and increase dps is revealed. The general mwo'r and those that aren't try-hards enjoy piloting different mechs and different builds and experiment.

Making weapons stronger on the field will only further limit viability and thus variability. In turn, making all weapons strong will only result in us killing each other quicker. Then there would be a call to increase armor.. and where will it end?

..just the wrong direction..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 11:26 AM.

[Antares102]

To all these "moah armor plz" guys:
No amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds.
The goal of gu... uhm... thecauldron actually it to make bad builds more viable.
If you have more armour everybody else will have too and will adapt their builds accordingly.
Good players will still only need a few seconds to kill you if you expose yourself or they use meta and you dont.

Again, no amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds.

Edited by Antares102, 23 March 2021 - 11:12 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 11:08 AM, said:

I don't run meta mechs.. i run literally every mech available. So I'm just telling you my experience and how fast one can get cored in non-meta.

Meta mechs don't magically get extra hit points and get cored just as quickly. If you get out of position you get deleted just as quickly... and its usually ATMs or massive dakka.

I too use everything, make no mistake.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 March 2021 - 11:15 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2021 - 11:03 AM, said:

UACs have a longer cooldown and are hotter and have lower velocity. Regular ACs run cooler and therefore can be combined with energy weapons to supplement their damage and be able to sustain more DPS. Its a tradeoff. I can see strengths and weaknesses there. Watch the video on reddit. Over time the regular ACs can put out the same level of damage.

Maybe the values aren't perfect, but the philosophy is sound.

You'll also notice that Clan ACs get one less pellet than the Ultras, which means Clan AC5s will behave more like IS AC5s.

I tried running clan ac's.. not even close as good as c-uac's (except ofcourse AC2's).. regardless of longer cooldown. And let's face it, if you're exposing long enough for jamming to be an issue leaving you vulnerable, you're doing it wrong. If you're exposing long enough for regular ac's to do damage, again you're doing it wrong. This game is about burst damage and high dps. Like you said.. you expose, you die.

I only have a handful of clan mechs outfitted with clan ac's (and half of those are ac2's). UAC's are just too good where they are.

The philosophy may be sound on paper but not in this nascar high-dps scenario we live in.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 11:19 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

Meta mechs don't magically get extra hit points and get cored just as quickly. If you get out of position you get deleted just as quickly... and its usually ATMs or massive dakka.

I too use everything, make no mistake.

Meh, meta mechs are meta mostly for two reasons.. their weapon mounts (less exposure risk) and small hit boxes (spreading incoming damage more easily).. so no they don't get cored just as quickly.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 11:21 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 11:16 AM, said:

I tried running clan ac's.. not even close as good as c-uac's (except ofcourse AC2's).. regardless of longer cooldown. And let's face it, if you're exposing long enough for jamming to be an issue leaving you vulnerable, you're doing it wrong. If you're exposing long enough for regular ac's to do damage, again you're doing it wrong. This game is about burst damage and high dps. Like you said.. you expose, you die.

I only have a handful of clan mechs outfitted with clan ac's (and half of those are ac2's). UAC's are just too good where they are.

The philosophy may be sound on paper but not in this nascar high-dps scenario we live in.

Well, you haven't ran Cauldron Clan ACs so you don't know yet. What's on live isn't what the Cauldron is proposing.

And that's an oversimplification of how the game is played. When things devolve into NASCAR, there is often plenty of opportunity to shoot continuously. Likewise, during a team push, you have ample time to shoot continuously.

[DAEDALOS513]

Antares102, on 23 March 2021 - 11:10 AM, said:

To all these "moah armor plz" guys:
No amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds.
The goal of gu... uhm... thecauldron actually it to make bad builds more viable.
If you have more armour everybody else will have too and will adapt their builds accordingly.
Good players will still only need a few seconds to kill you if you expose yourself or they use meta and you dont.

Again, no amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds.

If you have more armour you won't get cored as easily and will get a longer chance to reposition or join your team. Even if you last just 30 seconds longer.. it's a change in the right direction.. unlike many Cauldron changes.

[Gas Guzzler]

Can we just stop and ask why you are fighting balance and pushing for things to remain unbalanced?

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

Once again this just makes it sound like you want imbalance built in to the game. That's a terrible mentality, and makes it harder on new players.

Once again, it is still easily possible to make bad builds. The Cauldron wants all optimized builds to be balanced, not bad builds.

No one wants crutches, we want balance. If loadouts are balanced, then weapons aren't OP and therefore aren't crutches.

How do I want imbalance? Instead of buffing weak weapons.. I'm saying maybe nerf the op ones.. we all know which those are. Cauldron wants to buff weak and some strong weapons. Why would anyone want to decrease TTK? Matches are already so fricken short and you already get cored way too quick.. Imagine when all weapons are stronger without proportionate increase in armour?

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 11:33 AM.

[MyriadDigits]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 11:08 AM, said:

I don't run meta mechs.. i run literally every mech available. So I'm just telling you my experience and how fast one can get cored in non-meta.

Compers mostly run the best mechs with the best hit boxes and thus the source of their desire to beef up weapons and increase dps is revealed. The general mwo'r and those that aren't try-hards like to pilot different mechs and different builds and experiment.

Making weapons stronger on the field will only further limit viability and thus variability. In turn, making all weapons strong will only result in us killing each other quicker. Then there would be a call to increase armor.. and where will it end?

..just the wrong direction..

They intend to touch on mech scale, agility, and quirks later, all of which would enable them to increase the survivability of mechs, especially the underperformers.

Its also worth poking at the false narrative that comp players just wanna buff the best stuff because they like like that stuff. That's just plainly not true. Comp players in actual fact, find playing with 4 weapons and 5 mechs to be incredibly boring, and only do it because it drives wins. They'd love to be able to drive wins regardless of mech or weapon (adsuming of course the build is still optimized). The goal of the Cauldron's changes is to bring up underperforming weapons (and later, underperforming mechs) so that the gap between good and bad is narrowed to the point that a team isn't basically down a mech from the start because a pilot chose a particular mech or weapon.

They are buffing weak things to keep pace with the strong things. If everything can keep pace with everything else, then we have more biable options, more viable options means more variety regardless of the level of play.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 11:29 AM, said:

How do I want imbalance? Instead of buffing weak weapons.. I'm saying to nerf the op ones.. why would anyone want to decrease TTK? Matches are already so fricken short and you already get cored way too quick.. Imagine when all weapons are strong?

That's because there is no way to make you survive a long time against 8-12 mechs.

There is a fine line between "raising TTK" and making weapons too much like nerf guns. The playerbase numbers after Chris took the reigns is pretty indicative of nerf-bias balancing. One example is making laser vomit more difficult to run optimally. That had a huge side-effect on the Supernova chassis and others that only have energy hardpoints. It had its only decent loadout nerfed, and then the great agility nerf took it down the rest of the way. (The SNV-1 had good agility after the desync. That eventually went away).

[Antares102]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

If you have more armour you won't get cored as easily and will get a longer chance to reposition or join your team. Even if you last just 30 seconds longer.. it's a change in the right direction.. unlike many Cauldron changes.

Yes I expected that you would write that.
Let me tell you a story about a duel (yes I know duels arent real battles, it's about the mindset) I had with somebody who was playing his 1vs1 mech which was something like this (cant remember exactly):
https://mwo.smurfy-n...173cd8fc01b1b50

And I was running this:
https://mwo.smurfy-n...19bae1d037117e7

Sometimes I needed 4 alphas for him sometimes 5.
After I beat him 5 times he said "technically he should win every time".
He literally had almost twice the hit points compared to me because he had survival tree maxed out and I had everything in mobility. And he defenitly hit me a lot with his weapons.

So why do you think I won and he lost everytime?
No amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds.

I remember my earily days when I also died everytime from being cored.
You can easily spot bad players by checking their paper doll showing no armour CT and all other zones barely touched.

Last time when I played I of course died from being cored most of the time, but practically everytime my arms and one side torso or leg was gone was well. A destroyed zone (side torso/leg) only transfers 40% to CT when hit did you know that?

You are carrying tons of hit points around with you, you just have to use them!

Edited by Antares102, 23 March 2021 - 12:03 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Antares102, on 23 March 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

Yes I expected that you would write that.
Let me tell you a story about a duel (yes I know duels arent real battles, it's about the mindset) I had with somebody who was playing his 1vs1 mech which was something like this (cant remember exactly):
https://mwo.smurfy-n...173cd8fc01b1b50

And I was running this:
https://mwo.smurfy-n...19bae1d037117e7

Sometimes I needed 4 alphas for him sometimes 5.
After I beat him 5 times he said "technically he should win every time".
He literally had almost twice the hit points compared to me because he had survival tree maxed out and I had everything in mobility. And he defenitly hit me a lot with his weapons.

So why do you think I won and he lost everytime?
No amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds.

I remember my earily days when I also died everytime from being cored.
You can easily spot bad players by checking their paper doll showing no armour CT and all other zones barely touched.

Last time when I played I of course died from being cored most of the time, but practically everytime my arms and one side torso or leg was gone was well. A destroyed zone (side torso/leg) only transfers 40% to CT when hit did you know that?

You are carrying tons of hit points around with you, you just have to use them!

That's a lot of words for such a weak argument.
What lives longer? A good player with a lot of armor, or a good player with less armor?
What kills faster? A group of players with stronger weapons, or a group of players with weaker weapons?

Edited by feeWAIVER, 23 March 2021 - 12:11 PM.

[Antares102]

feeWAIVER, on 23 March 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

That's a lot of words for such a weak argument.
What lives longer? A good player with a lot of armor, or a good player with less armor?

That's not the point even though with your premise the good player with more armour survives longer of course.
The request for "moah armour plz" mainly originates from bad players or players using bad builds.
That's why I say "No amount of armour will save you from being bad or using nonsense builds."

As soon as you are the last to survive in every 2nd solo queue match you lose, you know what I mean.
Perhaps now with the solo/group queue merged this might be more difficult so lets say every 3rd match.

feeWAIVER, on 23 March 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

What kills faster? A group of players with stronger weapons, or a group of players with weaker weapons?

I fear good players with weak weapons much more than weak players with strong weapons.

Edited by Antares102, 23 March 2021 - 12:21 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

MyriadDigits, on 23 March 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

They intend to touch on mech scale, agility, and quirks later, all of which would enable them to increase the survivability of mechs, especially the underperformers.

Its also worth poking at the false narrative that comp players just wanna buff the best stuff because they like like that stuff. That's just plainly not true. Comp players in actual fact, find playing with 4 weapons and 5 mechs to be incredibly boring, and only do it because it drives wins. They'd love to be able to drive wins regardless of mech or weapon (adsuming of course the build is still optimized). The goal of the Cauldron's changes is to bring up underperforming weapons (and later, underperforming mechs) so that the gap between good and bad is narrowed to the point that a team isn't basically down a mech from the start because a pilot chose a particular mech or weapon.

They are buffing weak things to keep pace with the strong things. If everything can keep pace with everything else, then we have more biable options, more viable options means more variety regardless of the level of play.

I know.. so why buff weapons when we'll just have to buff mechs to compensate for weapon op'ness? That alone should tell you it's the wrong direction. And guess what.. mech buffs won't be necessary.. mic drop.

Buffing weak weapons to bring them to the level of already strong weapons is not the direction to go. We will have to buff hundreds of mechs to make them survive long enough.. this doesn't make sense. Instead.. and compers will never go for this because reasons.. instead we should nerf the stand out weapons. THIS will drive diversity.. THIS will drive people to use the lesser used weapons.

Mass mech buffs won't be necessary this way.. mic drop ~o

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 March 2021 - 12:39 PM.