400 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Just a suggestion, maybe there should be explanations with each weapon highlighting the intended effects of the changes and possible uses, and what issues it addresses.

[PocketYoda]

Soon as in... 2021?

BTW Cauldron sounds way better than Gulag kudos if its serious.

Edited by Samial, 23 March 2021 - 04:53 PM.

[SPNKRGrenth]

DAEDALOS513, on 23 March 2021 - 03:25 PM, said:

The difference lies in the effect it will have on TTK (time-to-kill) and match length. Going the nerf direction should in theory increase these two..

If you go by stats then you can't be accused of playing favorites. Looking at stats i'm sure you would find IS and Clan ac2 (maybe even uac2) and clan ppc's way outperforming all other weapons. Adjusting these two weapon systems would be a good start to increasing TTK and match length.

Wouldn't a simple solution to counteract the average TTK going down with the suggested rebalance, just be to mildly nerf double heat sink heat dissipation rates from 0.22, down to 0.20?

Or as an alternative, make everything fire roughly 10% or 15% slower, but otherwise keep the changes? I understand the point being made, that the rebalanced weapons would help the average casual player to kill faster, and that without the suggested mech rescale and mech agility increase, players wouldn't yet have the tools to better twist and dodge against a wider set of viable weapon systems.

[Scout Derek]

Runecarver, on 23 March 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

And yet the LRMs are getting a reduction in velocity. Really makes you think.

And yet ATMs are getting more health per missile. Really makes you think.

[Adette]

Runecarver, on 23 March 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

And yet the LRMs are getting a reduction in velocity. Really makes you think.

Scout Derek, on 23 March 2021 - 07:15 PM, said:

And yet ATMs are getting more health per missile. Really makes you think.

Not only that, but clan LRMs are getting health buffed across the board to better compensate for their streaming nature of fire. That should mean more overall missiles will get through AMS.

[The6thMessenger]

Adette, on 23 March 2021 - 07:29 PM, said:

Not only that, but clan LRMs are getting health buffed across the board to better compensate for their streaming nature of fire. That should mean more overall missiles will get through AMS.

Well, they have to.

They buffed AMS with larger range.

[Adette]

The6thMessenger, on 23 March 2021 - 07:31 PM, said:

Well, they have to.

They buffed AMS with larger range.

I think there was a suggestion about AMS changes (not in the upcoming PTS version 1) about decreasing AMS range by a lot, but making them do a little more damage. Reasoning being that the AMS would help you, but a 2x 4xAMS Corsairs shouldn't be able to just provide full umbrella coverage for an entire team. If teams want umbrella coverage, they would need to clump together, which could be exploited by the opposing team in terms of positioning.

[The6thMessenger]

Adette, on 23 March 2021 - 07:38 PM, said:

I think there was a suggestion about AMS changes (not in the upcoming PTS version 1) about decreasing AMS range by a lot, but making them do a little more damage. Reasoning being that the AMS would help you, but a 2x 4xAMS Corsairs shouldn't be able to just provide full umbrella coverage for an entire team. If teams want umbrella coverage, they would need to clump together, which could be exploited by the opposing team in terms of positioning.

So AMS is a lot more personal. That makes sense.

[Navid A1]

There has been an update on weapon values today.

- IS AC5 is now 1.1 heat
- C-AC5 has +1 GH limit
- IS Gauss now has 4.75 cooldown and 12 ammo per ton (6 per half ton)
- Clan Streak SRM2 heat is now 1.3
- Clan Streak SRM4 heat is now 2.4
- Clan Streak SRM6 heat is now 3.1

Also, previous ATM changes have been discarded. These are the new values for the PTS:

- ATM3 has +2 GH limit with 1.8 missile health
- ATM6 has now 1.6 missile health
- ATM9 has now 1.4 missile health and increased LOS spread to 4.5
- ATM12 has now 1.2 missile health and increased LOS spread to 5.2

[Runecarver]

Adette, on 23 March 2021 - 07:29 PM, said:

Not only that, but clan LRMs are getting health buffed across the board to better compensate for their streaming nature of fire. That should mean more overall missiles will get through AMS.

Which won't make any difference in actual practice because they will still be getting shredded to nothing by triple and quad AMS mechs like the kit fox, nova and corsair. A 0.1 health increase per missile is going to mean maybe one more missile out of a volley of 20 making it through for a total of 3 or 4. That isn't doing anything.

The velocity reduction for an already slow long range weapon system makes absolutely no sense.

All it does is give even more time for targets of the "long range missile" to get back into cover and completely nullify the weapons fire.

Navid A1, on 23 March 2021 - 08:53 PM, said:

There has been an update on weapon values today.
Also, previous ATM changes have been discarded. These are the new values for the PTS:

- ATM3 has +2 GH limit with 1.8 missile health
- ATM6 has now 1.6 missile health
- ATM9 has now 1.4 missile health and increased LOS spread to 4.5
- ATM12 has now 1.2 missile health and increased LOS spread to 5.2

A higher spread value than direct sight clan LRM20s for ATM12s? And ATM9 having the same spread value as an MRM30? This is just pure nonsense.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Runecarver, on 24 March 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

A higher spread value than direct sight clan LRM20s for ATM12s? And ATM9 having the same spread value as an MRM30? This is just pure nonsense.

ATMs already vomit out loads of damage, making them spread more and not instacore mechs is a good change without making them weaker to AMS by nerfing velocity or missile health.

[Runecarver]

Monke-, on 24 March 2021 - 12:25 AM, said:

ATMs already vomit out loads of damage, making them spread more and not instacore mechs is a good change without making them weaker to AMS by nerfing velocity or missile health.

Except it's really not, as it just punishes mechs that can only bring a maximum of 2x ATM12s. It does greatly affect heavies and assaults bringing 3-4x ATM12s because that's most of their available tonnage put into those weapons, but those mechs sometimes have the ability to get a few backup weapons to try and concentrate more damage.

And once again, a miniscule 0.2-0.3 health per missile means absolutely nothing. A pair of passive AMS' will still completely evaporate an ATM12 missile volley. And triple or quad AMS will just not let you play with said weapons.

[Kroete]

After the discussion, with some of these other guys, i must say i have no trust for the people who made it,
they dont understand their own changes or plain lied to work to their agenda (less ttk),
and included a rescale for mechs in their balancing without knowing if pgi will do more then xml changes.

Until pgi clearly say they will invest in the rescale and other changes, its nothing more then an ageda for compplay with low ttk, cod with mechs. I dont think that the majority wants this in a mech game.

[The6thMessenger]

Kroete, on 24 March 2021 - 12:56 AM, said:

After the discussion, with some of these other guys, i must say i have no trust for the people who made it,
they dont understand their own changes or plain lied to work to their agenda (less ttk),
and included a rescale for mechs in their balancing without knowing if pgi will do more then xml changes.

Until pgi clearly say they will invest in the rescale and other changes, its nothing more then an ageda for compplay with low ttk, cod with mechs. I dont think that the majority wants this in a mech game.

Honestly, I would trust them more than I trust PGI with balancing. For all of your criticisms and mine, so far it's the lesser evil if there's any.

Of course, why is low TTK bad though? Is it because comp people would kill you faster? Supposed the TTK is globally lower, wouldn't that mean the comps should you catch them with their pants down, mean they will also quickly go down?

And then actually looking at their changes by their site: https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html , the main offenders of low TTK like MPL and Dakka of UAC10s and UAC5s are barely touched; the other Lasers that were buffed were only a bit and these have been overnerfed for quite some time which only brings them up, and would still be subject to better counter due to upcoming improved agility; the PPCs mostly were heat reduction and the biggest buff is the LPPC.

I honestly don't see much of your issue, the patch is mostly awesome. If anything I wish they'd just skip to the UAC reworks honestly. I mean if you're going to do it eventually to be sure, might as well do it right now.

But you know what, okay, please tell us what specific meta builds you think would be overpowered or something?

[Ignatius Audene]

Maybe this end diffrent then the year of fp. But i dont think so.

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 23 March 2021 - 08:53 PM, said:

- ATM3 has +2 GH limit with 1.8 missile health
- ATM6 has now 1.6 missile health
- ATM9 has now 1.4 missile health and increased LOS spread to 4.5
- ATM12 has now 1.2 missile health and increased LOS spread to 5.2

Duuude. Come on, lets just have the 2.5/2.0/1.5 damage scheme on a 120-270m sweet-spot.

Spread isn't really a good vector for adjusting damage output, precisely because it's doing fuckton of damage you don't have to be precise in the first place. That's why it's working now.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 March 2021 - 07:56 AM.

[Kroete]

The6thMessenger, on 24 March 2021 - 01:46 AM, said:

Of course, why is low TTK bad though? Is it because comp people would kill you faster? Supposed the TTK is globally lower, wouldn't that mean the comps should you catch them with their pants down, mean they will also quickly go down?

And then actually looking at their changes by their site: https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html , the main offenders of low TTK like MPL and Dakka of UAC10s and UAC5s are barely touched...

Less ttk = more cod and less mechwarrior.

All weapons will be buffed to that level., means all weapons but the 4 or 5 best will be buffed to that level.
The overall ttk will go dastically down´if you buff the majority of the weapons to the level of the bestperformers

After saying there will be no ttk increase, a tiny ttk increase, we are now at there will be a ttk increase but it will be compensated by mechrescaling.
But they dont said if they will increase the small mechs (less ttk) or shrink the big mechs (little reduce of ttk) and if pgi is willing to invest the money for it.
Damage to armor ratio is another topic they missed totaly, all weapons will be near the mpl, the mpl we have is at 3 times the damage then in tt but we still have only 2x armor.

In the moment this changes will only reduce ttk drastically and cater only for compplay, a tiny minority of the playerbase.

Edited by Kroete, 24 March 2021 - 02:10 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Kroete, on 24 March 2021 - 02:06 AM, said:

Less ttk = more cod and less mechwarrior.

Um, so what though? I mean nevermind the possibly impossible standard of being a mechwarrior, I'm not really bothered by it.

Kroete, on 24 March 2021 - 02:06 AM, said:

All weapons will be buffed to that level., means all weapons but the 4 or 5 best will be buffed to that level.
The overall ttk will go dastically down´if you buff the majority of the weapons to the level of the bestperformers

And that's bad why? I mean you got bad performers better that they are legit choices.

Kroete, on 24 March 2021 - 02:06 AM, said:

After saying there will be no ttk increase, a tiny ttk increase, we are now at there will be a ttk increase but it will be compensated by mechrescaling.
But they dont said if they will increase the small mechs (less ttk) or shrink the big mechs (little reduce of ttk) and if pgi is willing to invest the money for it.
Damage to armor ratio is another topic they missed totaly, all weapons will be near the mpl, the mpl we have would be at 3 times the damage then in tt but we still have only 2x armor.

In the moment this changes will only reduce ttk drastically and cater only for compplay, a tiny minority of the playerbase.

Yeah, they kinda flip-flop like that. I really hate that part, but I like the rest of what they are doing so I'm on board. Surely better than PGI's direction.

But yes, it's quite annoying how the values I originally agreed upon keeps changing. The ATMs for example, honestly they just want to keep the damn high close-range damage, and keep the ATMs broken.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 March 2021 - 02:15 AM.

[Kroete]

The6thMessenger, on 24 March 2021 - 02:14 AM, said:

And that's bad why? I mean you got bad performers better that they are legit choices.

No problem, all weapons should be legit and balanced, but we have also armor, wheigt, heat and ammo for balancing and you cant see that seperated beause all works together.

The6thMessenger, on 24 March 2021 - 01:46 AM, said:

the main offenders of low TTK like MPL and Dakka of UAC10s and UAC5s are barely touched

If the majority weapons are buffed to that level, the ttk will go down a lot.
As stated above, the mpl is at 3x damage of tt, but the armor is only 2x of tt.

And i dont see a mech rescale comming, its not an xml change ...

Edited by Kroete, 24 March 2021 - 02:30 AM.

[Aivazovsky]

Kroete, on 24 March 2021 - 02:06 AM, said:

The overall ttk will go dastically down
In the moment this changes will only reduce ttk drastically

Please, stop using this word. This is misinformation. You are deliberately misleading people. 10-15% (w/o rescale) is NOT drastically.