400 replies to this topic

[Darion Rothgarr]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 12:00 PM, said:

So the only concern I have is the IS Gauss vs Clan Gauss. It looks like they are exactly the same again. Are there any thoughts on how to differentiate them given that the IS one is larger and heavier?

Perhaps the IS Gauss can Charge a bit faster or Hold the charge for longer or both

[Gas Guzzler]

Darion Rothgarr, on 19 March 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

Perhaps the IS Gauss can Charge a bit faster or Hold the charge for longer or both

My first choice would just be more hit points.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

I like that IS HMGs have the same range because they are twice the tonnage investment of a regular MGs, so essentially, it makes MG boating more viable on more chassis, rather than having to rely on 6+ B hardpoints to do MGs, since currently the low HMG range makes it currently very difficult to use. I mean its a ONE TON machine gun. They also need more ammo tonnage investment. All in all, I think its a good change.

We could use that tonnage investment argument for a lot of weapons.

Let's make the SRM2 have the same spread and cooldown as the SRM6, it's only 1/3 of the tonnage investment after all. Let's make Small Lasers have the same damage per heat as Large Lasers, because they're only 1/10th of the tonnage. Let's bring the AC/2 down to AC/20 range because the AC/20 is way heavier. Why should the SNPPC generate less heat than the regular PPC when the regular PPC is heavier? Etc.

I think you'd agree that all of the hypothetical changes I just listed would be terrible. The bottom line is that there are more trade-offs than just tonnage to consider, like range, duration, hardpoints, etc. It shouldn't be just "more tonnage is more better" (outside of Artemis I guess). The give-and-take nature of tradeoffs like small/medium lasers having shorter duration and better heat efficiency than larges, or smaller ACs having better velocity and range than big ones, makes the mechlab more complex than just going for the biggest weapon in each family all the time.

For MGs specifically, the regular IS MG is probably not going to be used anymore due to the lack of hardpoints on IS mechs. The Clans at least have some use for regular MGs on chassis with enough hardpoints to take advantage of the better weight to damage ratio of regulars. The IS not so much.

I'm not saying the HMG can't or shouldn't have its range buffed, I'm saying that if you do it then you just need to give the regular MG some more range too. And frankly the LMG as well. MWO MGs are all CQB weapons, even the LMG. One thing MW4/MekTek did right was having massively different range brackets for the MG types (150 for HMG, 400 for MG, 600 for LMG). I'm not suggesting those values for MWO (definitely too high) but it's just an example. MWO squeezes them all way too close together.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:

My first choice would just be more hit points.

I want lower explosion damage too, so when it does explode it doesn't hurt quite as much.

Edited by FupDup, 19 March 2021 - 12:27 PM.

[Navid A1]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 12:00 PM, said:

So the only concern I have is the IS Gauss vs Clan Gauss. It looks like they are exactly the same again. Are there any thoughts on how to differentiate them given that the IS one is larger and heavier?

Faster cooldown for IS Gauss is a viable option imo.

Can be reduced to anywhere between 4 to 4.5 seconds.

4 second cooldown might actually be nice for IS Gauss

[Runecarver]

TheUltimateGhost, on 19 March 2021 - 11:52 AM, said:

well, so you want a weapon that can both free-farm mechs while not even being seen as well as win brawls?

might have to ask yourself who's buffing his own playstyle here...

You do not seem to want to take into account the myriad of factors that apply to the LRM weapon system. I admit it's difficult to keep track of all of them, since most other weapons are not quite as dependent on such external factors.

I highly recommend trying out LRMs in close range quarters, seeing how reliably you can hit with them against opponents. Especially opponents that are aware and utilizing high mobility to abuse cover. I have a feeling you'll find that even now you'll notice they cannot reliably compete against direct fire weaponry. Against a pulse laser vulcan with even 60% radar deprivation you'll notice it's hard to get even a shot off.

In a hypothetical scenario where LRMs were given similar or even slightly tighter spread patterns than MRMs after the projectile velocity reduction and the general mobility increase, you would still have to contend with the current lock timer, the slow velocity would result in a good chunk of your missile volley simply splattering against terrain. Unless of course both parties were stuck out in the open fully exposed. But then the LRM mech would likely get cored out much faster, as you cannot torso twist while maintaining a lock as those missiles are in flight.

Fact is that if you want LRMs to not be able to utilize indirect fire, you have to make them able to compete against direct fire weapons. That may require lock time reductions, spread reduction, considerable velocity increase, and even reduction or complete removal of minimum range. Otherwise you just end up with a weapon system that's a non-entity like back in 2016 outside of some dedicated groups, and even then that would just get stomped on by folks with more conventional weaponry and moderate utilization of terrain.

[Krasnopesky]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:

My first choice would just be more hit points.

I like that idea. Matches well with IS 'Mechs generally being tankier and IS Gauss itself being heavier.

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 19 March 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

For MGs specifically, the regular IS MG is probably not going to be used anymore due to the lack of hardpoints on IS mechs. The Clans at least have some use for regular MGs on chassis with enough hardpoints to take advantage of the better weight to damage ratio of regulars. The IS not so much.

HMGs being one ton is a huge investment.
Could you present some examples where MGs are not going to be used anymore?

[Darion Rothgarr]

Navid A1, on 19 March 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

HMGs being one ton is a huge investment.
Could you present some examples where MGs are not going to be used anymore?

The introduction of the Magshot Weapon... if that ever happens....

[Mal Bolge]

Gauss Rifle (IS):
Weapon Health increased to 12 (from 10)
Velocity increased to 2200 m/s (from 2000)
Range increased to 810m (from 660)
Max range increased to 2050m (from 1320)

Gauss Rifle (Clan):
Weapon Health increased to 12 (from 5)
Velocity increased to 2200 m/s (from 2000)
Range increased to 810m (from 660)
Max range increased to 2050m (from 1320)

What is the trade off between a clan gauss rifle weighing 12 tons and taking 6 slots and an IS gauss rifle weighing 15 tons and taking 7 slots? What difference in performance does 3 tons and 1 slot make?

Edited by Mal Nilsum, 19 March 2021 - 12:36 PM.

[Navid A1]

Mal Nilsum, on 19 March 2021 - 12:34 PM, said:

Gauss Rifle (IS):
Weapon Health increased to 12 (from 10)
Velocity increased to 2200 m/s (from 2000)
Range increased to 810m (from 660)
Max range increased to 2050m (from 1320)

Gauss Rifle (Clan):
Weapon Health increased to 12 (from 5)
Velocity increased to 2200 m/s (from 2000)
Range increased to 810m (from 660)
Max range increased to 2050m (from 1320)

What is the trade off between a clan gauss rifle weighing 12 tons and taking 6 slots and an IS gauss rifle weighing 15 tons and taking 7 slots? What difference in performance does 3 tons and 1 slot make?

My vote would be 4 second cooldown (from 5) for IS Gauss... end result would be based on what the majority wants.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 March 2021 - 12:41 PM.

[Darion Rothgarr]

Mal Nilsum, on 19 March 2021 - 12:34 PM, said:

Gauss Rifle (IS):
Weapon Health increased to 12 (from 10)
Velocity increased to 2200 m/s (from 2000)
Range increased to 810m (from 660)
Max range increased to 2050m (from 1320)

Gauss Rifle (Clan):
Weapon Health increased to 12 (from 5)
Velocity increased to 2200 m/s (from 2000)
Range increased to 810m (from 660)
Max range increased to 2050m (from 1320)

What is the trade off between a clan gauss rifle weighing 12 tons and taking 6 slots and an IS gauss rifle weighing 15 tons and taking 7 slots? What difference in performance does 3 tons and 1 slot make?

Typically in MWO has effectively given the DPs to IS but Burst Damage to Clan. Lighter more efficent weapons meant longer cooldowns (tho not always the case). So i can see Navid reason for this suggestion. It fits with IS tech being heavier but more robust while clan tech is lighter and more refined at the cost of DPS.

[Navid A1]

4 second was the original cooldown for IS Gauss before PGI nerf'd it hard.

We can give it a test.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 March 2021 - 12:49 PM.

[East Indy]

Re: HMGs, this would be a perfect use of data showing average damage and average range from a sample. In my own experience, optimal range is often infeasible due to time on target (whereas, say, SPL can be used from oblique angles). It's only 50% more damage and considerable ammunition investment, too.

Edited by East Indy, 19 March 2021 - 12:57 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Navid A1, on 19 March 2021 - 12:48 PM, said:

4 second was the original cooldown for IS Gauss before PGI nerf'd it hard.

We can give it a test.

I like 4 second cooldown for IS Gauss, that sounds good and will help IS Gauss mechs with damage output.

[Gas Guzzler]

I'm so excited for these changes!

[Navid A1]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 March 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

I like 4 second cooldown for IS Gauss, that sounds good and will help IS Gauss mechs with damage output.

That would be one of the items on the list of adjustments for the second pass of PTS then.

The stuff that are posted on the first post have already been sent to PGI.

Edited by Navid A1, 19 March 2021 - 01:27 PM.

[grim spider]

These weapon changes look amazing, but as someone whos enjoyment of the game was really killed with the mobility nerf Im just hoping PGI manages to follow through with this

@PGI, I will give you more money if you make the game fun again. Please.

[Gas Guzzler]

___, on 19 March 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

These weapon changes look amazing, but as someone whos enjoyment of the game was really killed with the mobility nerf Im just hoping PGI manages to follow through with this

@PGI, I will give you more money if you make the game fun again. Please.

That's the next step! Excited for that one too.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 March 2021 - 02:09 PM.

[MechWarrior5782621]

Looks good overall. I think laser vomit will be very strong with these changes.

[The6thMessenger]

Krasnopesky, on 19 March 2021 - 06:28 AM, said:

Well PGI came to us for help and offered us a PTS, so presumably our spreadsheet was impressive enough for them.

I think it's more of they knew they ****** up the last patch and squandered more good-will of the community, and they have to get it back, somehow.

They probably just did the PTS to make us complacent, but would be doing something else in the Live Client. I ain't putting any faith until the changes actually happen on live server.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 March 2021 - 02:31 PM.