63 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

Flak Kannon, on 19 March 2021 - 01:50 PM, said:

You done messed up the game PGI.

I post infrequently but have more games played than 99.9% of the player base.

PGI needs to make ALL ppcs now have a minimum 90 meter range so that that if you choose to play a PPC mech... you risk being eaten alive by lights. Its a fair trade off.

I'm fine with 12 damage and 17 damage ( Heavy PPC ) per shot, you can even lower the heat and or the timer for cooldown back to pre-patch with the elevated damage, but for the love of god.. there is no way a 4 ERPPC Warhammer IIC should be allowed to also tussle up close with a light or fast medium. If you get caught running a full PPC boat their needs to be a trade off...



Min 90 meter range for ALL PPC, both Clan and IS.


Enjoi

Uhh these are deemed by the tabletop game.. The ppcs are not all 90 meter dead zone this game follows Battletech.

Snub, er ppcs and clan er ppcs have no dead zones

Wildstreak, on 19 March 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

Actually there was a optional TT rule when I last played that allowed any non-Snub PPC to do damage at 0-90 meters BUT the shooting Mech took damage based on how far away it was.
Rules for it in yellow text box at this site.
Questions are:
- can they modify PPCs for this?
- do players want yet another keybind to fiddle with or just make copies of existing PPCs with the Inhibitor off?
- does it have to be the EXACT same effect? They did change the UACs from TT permanent jam effect to temporary jam for MWO so the PPC at less than 90 meters effect could be different than, "Your PPC blows up, here's 10 Structure damage."

Yes the term "optional" which isn't the standard..

Edited by Samial, 19 March 2021 - 07:10 PM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Flak Kannon, on 19 March 2021 - 01:50 PM, said:

PGI needs to make ALL ppcs now have a minimum 90 meter range so that that if you choose to play a PPC mech... you risk being eaten alive by lights. Its a fair trade off.

They've already done this by making PPCs have such a longer cooldown.

Wildstreak, on 19 March 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

Actually there was a optional TT rule when I last played that allowed any non-Snub PPC to do damage at 0-90 meters BUT the shooting Mech took damage based on how far away it was

But you could always use PPCs in their minimum range? Not doing damage within min range for any weapon is a PGI thing, not even IS LRMs in TT have a zero damage minimum range

[Wildstreak]

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 March 2021 - 06:01 PM, said:

Yeah, the chance of having your PPC blow itself up just for trying to fire it had the net result that nobody ever used that rule, nor was it allowed in any official tournament that I’m aware of. (I’m sure there were some tournaments, of course, but none like the Star League Gunslinger tournaments.)

Samial, on 19 March 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

Yes the term "optional" which isn't the standard..

You missed stuff that is posted.

Wildstreak, on 19 March 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

- does it have to be the EXACT same effect? They did change the UACs from TT permanent jam effect to temporary jam for MWO so the PPC at less than 90 meters effect could be different than, "Your PPC blows up, here's 10 Structure damage."

Note underlined text.

Monke-, on 19 March 2021 - 07:15 PM, said:

But you could always use PPCs in their minimum range? Not doing damage within min range for any weapon is a PGI thing, not even IS LRMs in TT have a zero damage minimum range

Using in minimum range was optional in TT.
No damage in minimum range is NOT PGI.
Yes IS LRMs did have 0 damage within 120 meters, Hot Loading was also optional.

[Errinovar]

Flak Kannon, on 19 March 2021 - 01:50 PM, said:

You done messed up the game PGI.

I post infrequently but have more games played than 99.9% of the player base.

What does that even look like? I mean what number of drops are we talking about here? How many drops do most players have? I played in beta and after but stopped sometime before Solaris, came back briefly to try Solaris and then stopped playing again until last week. Combined I have 4,616 drops across all weight classes, but the majority of those are medium drops and over 1000 of those were in Centurions. So I'm curious, how many drops have the .1% made? Hell, how many drops have the 1% made? 15,000? 10,000?

[Flak Kannon]

I see I struck a nerve to all you players that want the best of both worlds.

I understand the desire to stick to cannon. That is fair.

No worry.

How about this.

Inside 50 meters... PPCs damage the shooter at 25% - 50% of the damage inflicted from the ppc burst. Give the lights a reason to try and close the range. Their should some give and take. the new added 1-2 seconds on the cool down for the added damage isnt taking enough and giving FAR too much.



There is no drawback right now using them.

If no min range, I say a 8-10 second cool down.


I do not mind you all disagree. But this conversation is just beginning, mark my words.


Enjoi

[Gen Lee]

Flak Kannon, on 20 March 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

I see I struck a nerve to all you players that want the best of both worlds.

I understand the desire to stick to cannon. That is fair.

No worry.

How about this.

Inside 50 meters... PPCs damage the shooter at 25% - 50% of the damage inflicted from the ppc burst. Give the lights a reason to try and close the range. Their should some give and take. the new added 1-2 seconds on the cool down for the added damage isnt taking enough and giving FAR too much.



There is no drawback right now using them.

If no min range, I say a 8-10 second cool down.


I do not mind you all disagree. But this conversation is just beginning, mark my words.


Enjoi

As it is, the cooldown for c-ERPPC is 7 seconds with increased damage and heat. Before the patch, the weapon wasn't meant for brawling, but you COULD use them in close quarters somewhat if you had to. After the patch, the cooldown makes trying to use the weapon in close quarters a really bad idea. The increase in damage may compensate for the heat increase due to the long cooldown, but the long wait creates a diminishing return in that scenario. Further increasing the cooldown to 8 seconds would be a bad idea, and 10 seconds would mean you could only fire your weapon 6 times a minute, rendering the weapon pretty much completely useless.

Edited by Gen Lee, 20 March 2021 - 07:23 AM.

[Flak Kannon]

Errinovar, on 20 March 2021 - 05:46 AM, said:

What does that even look like? I mean what number of drops are we talking about here? How many drops do most players have? I played in beta and after but stopped sometime before Solaris, came back briefly to try Solaris and then stopped playing again until last week. Combined I have 4,616 drops across all weight classes, but the majority of those are medium drops and over 1000 of those were in Centurions. So I'm curious, how many drops have the .1% made? Hell, how many drops have the 1% made? 15,000? 10,000?

Just to clairify.

I have played more than 25,000 rounds, per Jarls List, and some 2-3k games pre-archived.

That puts me at the top of games played. This is the only time I have ever said this on this forum.



PGI might want consider the opinion/concerns of players (whales) that post concerns about patch updates.



Enjoi

[Der Geisterbaer]

Wildstreak said:

Using in minimum range was optional in TT.

~erm~ No?!
Even while the game was still called "BattleDroids" minimum range rules where only "optional" in sofar as you could play either "BattleDroids basic" (where no minimum range rule existed and the weapon systems weren't even part of the simulation beyond fixed damage values at specified ranges) or "BattleDroids Advanced" and "BattleDroid Expert" (where minimum range was part of the ruleset).

Once the game actually became the TT known as "BattleTech" the "BattleDroids Advanced" rules became the lowest common denominator for all TT rules and thus have included the minimum rules as part of the mandatory core ruleset ever since

Wildstreak said:

No damage in minimum range is NOT PGI.

It certainly is a PGI thing but not necessarily a PGI-only thing. But ...

Wildstreak said:

Yes IS LRMs did have 0 damage within 120 meters,

... it most definitely is not a BattleTech TT thing.

So no, IS LRM did not 0 damage within 120 meters (which is already quite far into the minimum range of IS LRM). They receive(d) a cumulative +1 to-hit modifier for every hex that the targeted mech was closer within minimum range. Since the minimum range was (and still is) 6 hexes you can get a maximum of +6 as to-hit modifier ... which will only amount to a definite damage value of 0 once the modified target number reaches 13 and above. A default / regular IS mech pilot will indeed be unable to launch a successful attack against a point blank target (adjacent hex) should the combined to-hit modifiers for own movement, target movement, heat, terrain, etc. exceed the value of 1 but the (highly improbable) best case scenario still sees him firing LRM at an adjacent mech with a base TN of 11 and a subsequent roll on the missile table. At 120 meters - as in 4 hexes away - our regular pilot gets a +3 to hit modifier which leaves him room for 4 points of to-hit modifier coming from the various things like movement, heat, terrain etc. before it becomes impossible to take a successful shot.

An elite or legendary pilot will even be able to hit with LRM from point blank after quite some movement and other negative to-hit modifiers.

Wildstreak said:

Hot Loading was also optional.

Oh yeah, unlike minium range hot loading indeed was and still is an optional / advanced rule but here's the other fun fact: Hot loading did not exist as an optional in any ruleset where minimum range wasn't mandatory part of the core rules.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 20 March 2021 - 12:07 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Wildstreak, on 19 March 2021 - 07:50 PM, said:

You missed stuff that is posted.

Note underlined text.

Using in minimum range was optional in TT.
No damage in minimum range is NOT PGI. (YES IT IS!!!!)
Yes IS LRMs did have 0 damage within 120 meters, Hot Loading was also optional.

What does the following provide? PGI made a decision that Battletech minimum range would mean different things, dependent on the weapon system, in MWO, which a number of players are not happy with. Instead of using the BT setup to add a useful flavor they made it a null spot but only for some weapon systems. I wonder if PGI tops were simply horrible gunners with the boardgame

Minimum range weapons for BT (in hexes). For Clanners' LRM not having a minimum range meant they usually better off taking LRM instead of SRM for greater range and To-Hit modifiers.

For IS.. now image if AC2/5 and All GR versions did no damage under minimum ranges...

isLRM - 6 (180m)
AC2 - 4 (120m)
AC5- 3 (90m)
LB 2xac - 4 (120m) both IS/C
LB 5xac - 3 (90m) both IS/C
UAC2 - 3 (90m)
cUAC2 - 2 (60m)
UAC5 - 2 (60m)
PPC - 3 (90m)
Gauss Rifle - 2 (60m) both IS/C
HGR - 4 (120m)
IHGR - 3 (90m)
LGR - 3 (90m)
ATM - 4 (120m)

Minimum range in Battletech did not mean no damage at all, it simply meant it became more difficult to hit the target due to having a higher To-Hit number for a hit., when all the modifiers and penalties were included. The standard PPC's have a minimum range of 3 as an example, at range 3 the attack roll takes a +1 minimum range penalty, +2 at range 2, and +3 at range 1.

Some of the following is from the BT Introductory Rules

https://www.darkagep...uctoryRules.pdf

Some weapons, such as particle projector cannons, autocannons and long-range missiles (LRMs), are designed to be
fired at long-range targets. When fired at close-range targets, they lose much of their effectiveness. The minimum effective range of each available weapon—the range at which the weapon becomes less effective than normal—appears on the
Weapons and Equipment Table, p. 60. *Battletech Introductory Rules*

Players can use the following formula to determine the minimum range modifier: [Min. Range] – [Target Range] + 1 =
Minimum Range Modifier.

In the Minimum Range diagram below, a 'Mech mounts a particle projector canon (PPC), which has a minimum effective range of three hexes. If the 'Mech is firing the PPC at a target unit three hexes away, the modifier would be +1 (3 (minimum range) – 3 (target range) +1 = 1). If the target unit is only two hexes away, the modifier is +2 (3 (minimum range) – 2 (target range) +1 = 2). If the target is one hex away, the modifier is +3 (3 (minimum range) – 1 (target range) +1 = 3); these numbers assume a Gunnery Skill of 4.

If the ’Mech in the above example allows its target to move to within 2 hexes of its position, the player must modify the BattleMech’s to-hit number because the target stands inside its weapon’s minimum effective range. The Base ToHit Number is 4 because the MechWarrior’s Gunnery Skill Level is 4, and the Minimum Range Modifier is +2. This gives the attacking ’Mech a Modified To-Hit Number of 6, the same as if the target were at medium range.


The Atlas is launching its LRMs at the JagerMech. The range to the target is 4 hexes, which is short range for that weapon, but the LRMs have a minimum range of 6. This means there is a Minimum Range Modifier of +3 applied to the attack. The Atlas did not move, so no attacker movement modifier is applied. The JagerMech spent 5 MP running, but only traveled 2 hexes, so there is also no target movement modifier applied. The Modified To-Hit Number for the LRM attack is 7 (Base 4 + Minimum Range 3 = 7).

And from the Tactical Manual
The minimum range of LRMs under standard rules reflects the time required for the missles' internal guidance system to lock onto their targets and for their explosive pyalods to arm. Hot-loading rules enable a player to arm the warheads of LRMs before the missiles are fired, and so hot-loaded LRMs have no minimum range modifier.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 March 2021 - 06:30 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

I remember my first month in the game, I was shooting pirana by Uziel 2 ppc. Pirana was before my nose, I shoot him million times, couldn't kill it.

[Mazzyplz]

if you listen to this guy his next post will be how autocannons need to go around light mechs, i swear.
will still get annihilated by something else and cry foul

[Vellron2005]

Flak Kannon, on 19 March 2021 - 01:50 PM, said:

You done messed up the game PGI.

I post infrequently but have more games played than 99.9% of the player base.

PGI needs to make ALL ppcs now have a minimum 90 meter range so that that if you choose to play a PPC mech... you risk being eaten alive by lights. Its a fair trade off.

I'm fine with 12 damage and 17 damage ( Heavy PPC ) per shot, you can even lower the heat and or the timer for cooldown back to pre-patch with the elevated damage, but for the love of god.. there is no way a 4 ERPPC Warhammer IIC should be allowed to also tussle up close with a light or fast medium. If you get caught running a full PPC boat their needs to be a trade off...



Min 90 meter range for ALL PPC, both Clan and IS.


Enjoi

Lemme guess - every PPC sniper in the playerbase is going "no"..

And everybody who has to deal with a 4 ERPPC mech is going "yes please"..

Ah... the old LRM type thread.. a classic!

[RickySpanish]

I heard holding A or D followed by rocking back and forth on W and S is a pretty OP strat for defeating PPC carriers. I find another good way to beat them up close is to not attempt to arrive under their noses in a straight line.

So I'll compromise: how about we remove minimum range on PPCs and give it to medium pulse lasers instead. You could even lower their cooldown if you like.

[Antares102]

@OP

[Navid A1]

Flak Kannon, on 19 March 2021 - 01:50 PM, said:

You done messed up the game PGI.

I post infrequently but have more games played than 99.9% of the player base.

PGI needs to make ALL ppcs now have a minimum 90 meter range so that that if you choose to play a PPC mech... you risk being eaten alive by lights. Its a fair trade off.

The trade off is significantly higher heat on ERPPCs, that don't allow you to spam then up close.
When you are charging a powerful assault mech with a fast medium, you 100% should expect to take a beating, even up close. do you think you fair better against an AC2 boat?... a Gauss mech?... should those also have min range?... they certainly have no heat problems.



Also Starting your post with """I have more games played than 99.9% of the player base""" just makes your argument weaker.

Edited by Navid A1, 21 March 2021 - 11:04 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Navid A1, on 21 March 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

The trade off is significantly higher heat on ERPPCs, that don't allow you to spam then up close.
When you are charging a powerful assault mech with a fast medium, you 100% should expect to take a beating, even up close. do you think you fair better against an AC2 boat?... a Gauss mech?... should those also have min range?... they certainly have no heat problems.



Also Starting your post with """I have more games played than 99.9% of the player base""" just makes your argument weaker.

He indicated that he used to play Cicada's but will now only play Commando's "until PGI fixes the PPCs"

[LordNothing]

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 March 2021 - 02:40 PM, said:

Short answer... no.
Informed answer... Lore says no. ER PPCs have never had a minimum range in battletech, that's one of their main advantages.

id be ok with it on both erppcs and maybe the hppc, especially if they have some sort of a soft min range where it ramps up, like clan lerms. but then id want min range removed all the others entirely.

otherwise nope.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 March 2021 - 01:21 PM.

[LordNothing]

Wildstreak, on 19 March 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

Actually there was a optional TT rule when I last played that allowed any non-Snub PPC to do damage at 0-90 meters BUT the shooting Mech took damage based on how far away it was.
Rules for it in yellow text box at this site.
Questions are:
- can they modify PPCs for this?
- do players want yet another keybind to fiddle with or just make copies of existing PPCs with the Inhibitor off?
- does it have to be the EXACT same effect? They did change the UACs from TT permanent jam effect to temporary jam for MWO so the PPC at less than 90 meters effect could be different than, "Your PPC blows up, here's 10 Structure damage."

this game really needs true splash. lack of aoe mechanics is boring. the quasi-splash that cerppcs have is a good approximation, but id rather do it for real. id probibly limit it only to armor damage only though, as the rngesus crit system would make it terrible.

i like the idea to make it potentially destroy your weapon if you use it more than once or twice inside its min range.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 March 2021 - 12:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

Flak Kannon, on 20 March 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

I see I struck a nerve to all you players that want the best of both worlds.

I understand the desire to stick to cannon. That is fair.

No worry.

How about this.

Inside 50 meters... PPCs damage the shooter at 25% - 50% of the damage inflicted from the ppc burst. Give the lights a reason to try and close the range. Their should some give and take. the new added 1-2 seconds on the cool down for the added damage isnt taking enough and giving FAR too much.



There is no drawback right now using them.

If no min range, I say a 8-10 second cool down.


I do not mind you all disagree. But this conversation is just beginning, mark my words.


Enjoi

im fine with giving them all the ramped min range that clan lerms have. it would be awesome if the snubs did extra damage inside 90 meters. id put one of those on a locust for lols and profits.

damage vs range is expressed as a float curve and you could do everything from a linear ramp-in to an exponential curve. idk why some of the weapons don't make use of more exotic float curves. take er lasers, rather than have them be really hot with ghost heat, why not just make them do half damage at point blank range, ramp up to full damage at about two thirds of their optimal range, and then ramp down from there to max range. then they can have their heat reduced. great at ranged play and terrible in cqb. atms are kind of fun to try to ride that optimal range zone where you get 3 damage a missile. many other weapons could have that.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 March 2021 - 01:08 PM.

[R Valentine]

PGI needs to remove all minimum ranges from all PPCs. Hard counters are the laziest game mechanic in existence. It's an admission that your game balance is unbelievably skewed, so skewed you need to resort to extremes just to crutch it.