166 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

I'm on the fence, i don't like top tiers deciding my game play, but i'm not overly impressed with these ****** cool downs either, so which to follow..

I've literally seen what PGI has done for years so i'm open to this gulag thing hopefully helping the game.. anythings better than more patches like we just got right..

I just hope its not a be careful of what you ask for scenario.

Curccu, on 20 March 2021 - 12:35 AM, said:

Well have to disagree there... you got two options learn to play it (not really that hard if you bother to use some playtime with it or whine 5+ Years (must be way more than that really, cannot remember when it came) that gauss is broken cause charge.

and yes this is a bait thread.

I think its a "how your Brain works" thing honestly... None of my friends can use them, they've literally tried many times but they just cannot wrap their brains around the charge up thing accurately. Some players just cannot use Gauss charge ups.

Strangely i have no problems now but it took me a long time to make it work (Years to train myself), and i still have issues occasional in a heated battle..

Edited by Samial, 20 March 2021 - 06:21 AM.

[Adette]

Samial, on 20 March 2021 - 12:36 AM, said:

I'm on the fence, i don't like top tiers deciding my game play, but i'm not overly impressed with these ****** cool downs either, so which do follow..

I've literally seen what PGI has done for years so i'm open to this gulag thing hopefully helping the game.. anythings better than more patches like we just got right..

I just hope its not a be careful of what you ask for scenario.


I think its a "how your Brain works" thing honestly... None of my friends can use them, they've literally tried many times but they just cannot wrap their brains around the charge up thing accurately. Some players just cannot use Gauss charge ups.

Strangely i have no problems now but it took me a long time to make it work (Years to train myself), and i still have issues occasional in a heated battle..

Top tiers aren't deciding your game play, we're trying to make all weapons have good use, which if successful, means whatever you decide to play will be useful and impactful.

Easiest way to learn gauss charge has always been to hold the charge at the same time you fire some medium lasers, then let it go when your lasers are done burning. It just eventually becomes muscle memory. Second tip to learn gauss charge is to bind all unused weapon groups to Gauss, so that your weapon group indicators around your targetting reticle all light up when you're charging, giving you more visual cue that it's ready to fire.

Edited by Adette, 20 March 2021 - 12:52 AM.

[Antares102]

Well, looking at OPs text this is a typical case of not being able to satisfy everyone mixed with a little "not getting the facts straight" (Gauss Charge).
In the thread from NAVID A1 Krasnopesky clearly stated that Gulag is more than just comp players:
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6384145

This is also mentioned Navid A1 himself in this thread:
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6376815

Just what I said in the other thread. Give these guys a chance.
YES it will not satisfy everybody (maybe also because they dont read and stuff)
YES things will change and perhaps your favourite build will go down the drain.
BUT if this is successful and revitalized the playerbase more changes will come
There might also be something coming that YOU like especially since YOU can join Gulag discord and make your opinion clear.
Did you have this option with PGI?

Edited by Antares102, 21 March 2021 - 08:48 AM.

[MTier Slayed Up]

Vlad Ward, on 19 March 2021 - 06:08 PM, said:

This is bait.

Idk man, have you seen some of the players in this game? Half of them act like tying a shoelace is a calculus problem.

[Alex Morgaine]

I'm kind of split on the changes. 3lppc is actually quite nice for mid range with some fast refire support weapons to keep up the pressure now. but the LGR changes feel... I really liked them for the fast cooldown tbh.

[Gagis]

Angry forum wariors not only do not represent casual players, they misrepresent them.

[Abisha]

I think they done it not because it's PPC but do the counter measure it gives to ECM
LRM is always been a hot issue in this game no ECM means LRM parade

that is my reason why they adjusted PPC

[LordNothing]

il agree about the lerms. there was one line item for those, one, a catch all for both tech bases/all missile sizes and a nerf at that. but look at the more popular (among the gulag contributors) weapons, they got a lot of attention. i dont use lerms, i find them boring. they have improved since they last saw changes. but they arent so much a threat as a notification that you just did something stupid. i mostly equip ams not as a counter but as a way to farm match score.

now the weapons the gulag put all the time and effort into will probably be very well balanced indeed. it might actually improve things. but the other side of it is extreme resistance to the obvious solution to target the bad variants directly, in isolation, minus far reaching consequences. the only variant changes recommended were quirks that were directly incompatible with the gulag. which is a prime example of the very thing im trying to explain.

if you attack the variant directly, nothing else is affected, the buck is not kicked down to the next iteration of weapon tweaks, the problem ends there. if you attack the problem from the weapons, you change the performance of hundreds of mech variants which means hundreds of things that are still broke. its as if they want uninformed players in terrible mechs.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 March 2021 - 04:15 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Alexandros, on 19 March 2021 - 09:57 PM, said:

I dont agree with a million stuff that PGI did but seeing a certain "gang" of players ruling the fates of the rest of us is nope.

Firstly, agree or not with the efforts of the Gulag, but at least be honest about the impact their efforts have. Unlike PGI, the Gulag's balance efforts have been explicitly public. They are providing proposals that anyone can observe and comment on in their discord and even in PGI's own forums.

Now lets consider PGI and the recent batch of PPC changes. When did PGI run the PPC changes past the community for approval? They didn't. How about a PPC PTS? Nope. How long was the comment period for player input pursued about those changes? Well, they didn't actually invite comment; just announced them in the patch notes, then dumped them into the game the next evening. So lets be clear about who has the "power" here, because its pretty clear that it sure as hell isn't the Gulag.

Secondly, the Gulag's efforts have been undertaken at the request of PGI (Daeron's request to the community for ideas on how to improve and revive MWO), and yet what changes have been imposed on the game thus far? The PPC changes were largely an out of left field change that NO ONE, not one person, asked for. Even Daeron, a PGI employee, has expressed disappointment with how those changes were imposed on the game, and yet you speak of a "gang" of players having all this "power"? That's some gaslighting BS right there.

Third, the efforts of the Gulag have been roundly ignored by PGI in terms of actual game play changes imposed. Their current efforts are to be rewarded with a mere PTS in an effort to placate them and those of us who would like to see their changes made, and nothing more. This is what you consider being "ruled"? Something you and many others can and will ignore just by playing the game on the live servers and not downloading the PTS is being "ruled"? Gimme a break.

[Baron Kit]

I mean realistically I don't even expect half the changes to make it to the live game. But even if some of it does itll be good. There's a lot I agree with and a little I disagree with but regardless.

Don't get me wrong I'm a bit scared of all of this as I like the game right now and I really feel like the games biggest issues arnt even balance its the lack of decent marketing, thats wrong, the lack of any marketing and maps. Everyone ive introduced to mwo has 1 never heard of it and 2 hates the lack of maps (also how spendy customizing your mech cosmetically is). I've introduced 8 people to it so while not a huge sample size its atleast something....eh I'm rambling.

Back to the main point why fear change if change can rebound the game.

Also forgot to mention even with all of this said I fully support the gulag effort as agree or disagree they are open, willing to talk and there is a lot of effort being put in.

Edited by Baron Kit, 20 March 2021 - 05:19 AM.

[Dr Wubs]

In almost any game, the players are better at fixing things than the devs.

You're whinging about something you haven't even tried yet for imaginary reasons.

[Wildstreak]

Alexandros, on 19 March 2021 - 09:24 PM, said:

Snub // ER PPC dont have the same unstable release as the classic Particle cannon so they dont need the safety measure. But they do the same devastating effect where they fall

But you forget the Snub was designed to be a close combat PPC while others are meant for longer ranges thus the Field Inhibitor that prevents damage at less then 90 meters is needed to allow that longer reach. You cannot get everything for free.

Now as someone said there is the ERPPPC with no minimum BUT that has the price of higher heat cost for the same damage, no free again.

Now you may bring up the cERPPC but there you run into 3 things.
1 - cERPPC has a slower velocity.
2 - cERPPC has a lower health value making it easier to destroy through flat damage not counting crits.
3 - cERPPC is supposed to be designed based on the larger picture of Clan vs IS that is still being debated.

Point is sometimes you gotta pay for what you want. What type of penalty would you be willing to pay to have PPCs do damage at 90 or less meters? As I said in the other topic, it does NOT have to be a straight TT conversion.

As for your other point, I would say it is partially true without getting into specifics.

Dr Wubs, on 20 March 2021 - 05:55 AM, said:

In almost any game, the players are better at fixing things than the devs.

Partial truth but also partial myth proven false before in many games thus one of the popular 'Gamer' Myths.

Edited by Wildstreak, 20 March 2021 - 07:46 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Alexandros, on 19 March 2021 - 03:56 PM, said:

What about us casual players that want the flavor of real battletech feeling? Why the game has to always shift to the minorities like "Gulag" and "champion" / "competitive people" that are not the majority?

You destroyed Gauss riffle by adding the charge , you gave the PPC splash only to clans, the same people held a campaign against the LRMS and now its a shame to play that weapon without being discriminated. Now you want to take away the fun we have from the PPCS (Since you all cry about reverting it). You keep destroying the very core of the playerbase ,the CASUALS.


Mechwarrior was about bringing different ideas to the table and surprise your enemies. Not ending up copying eachother's maximum effective builds that are already pre DECIDED by the minority.

You push a small company to do constant tuning according to your fetishes and not letting them develop SOMETHING NEW.

So you enjoy PGI making your mechs potato and not fun and making the gap between workable and unusable larger?

If so, your idea of "casual" is not actually, in fact, casual.

[Alexandros]

Scout Derek, on 20 March 2021 - 10:05 AM, said:

So you enjoy PGI making your mechs potato and not fun and making the gap between workable and unusable larger?

If so, your idea of "casual" is not actually, in fact, casual.

What I enjoy would make the game unplayable for you. That's why I feel that players shouldnt calibrate a game - everyone would tune it their "taste".

[Antares102]

Alexandros, on 20 March 2021 - 10:27 AM, said:

What I enjoy would make the game unplayable for you. That's why I feel that players shouldnt calibrate a game - everyone would tune it their "taste".

And how would your enjoyable game look like if I may ask? I am curious now.
(Or did you post that already and I missed it?)

[Mazen Drakhov]

I'm not represented by the Gulag either, but I support their efforts 100%.

The game needs to change to stay interesting, and finally having a vision for all the weapon systems together is quite welcome from my perspective.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm going to be honest with you.

Neither do I.

I ain't part of the 20+ people working in it, and I'm pretty sure it's mostly the high-end people than the low-end people when they said they have low-skill people in the panel as well. There's always a difference in philosophy, and though their changes is nice, there's still min-maxing BS there that they would rather keep.

But I have seen the work and effort they have put in, made me believe in them more than PGI right now.

The panel in the Gulag that makes the editorial decisions is composed of high-end players, it's true. Some can even be fairly abrasive. But if you have a case, and you can convincingly articulate that case, then your case will not be written off. That does not necessarily mean your proposal will be incorporated as submitted, as often there will be a compromise because there are many differences of opinion even within the panel.

Right now the Gulag focus is on making weapons useful. I don't think all of the values will result in weapons that are fun to use, and there is still an ongoing issue of significant overlap for some, but there is an undeniable improvement in the utility of several historic under-performers.

Not sure what you mean by min-maxing BS; you cannot even hope to escape min-maxing as it is an inherent part of the game.

[R Valentine]

I'm not represented by any "Gulag" either. The gulag isn't about me. It's about balance and what's best for the game. If you don't personally benefit from the gulag then my heart goes out to you, but that doesn't mean the gulag is a bad thing. It just means your weapon of choice is on the higher performing end and gulag is going to alter that.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 20 March 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

The panel in the Gulag that makes the editorial decisions is composed of high-end players, it's true. Some can even be fairly abrasive. But if you have a case, and you can convincingly articulate that case, then your case will not be written off. That does not necessarily mean your proposal will be incorporated as submitted, as often there will be a compromise because there are many differences of opinion even within the panel.

Kind of true. I had a suggestion to Navid, I ain't going to tell which because I feel it'll be self-aggrandizing, but I managed to get it off, and it's a pretty doozy rework. I like to think it's mine, maybe not, but I like to.

That being said, there is still a lot of bias towards high skill, a lot of sway to their opinions. I don't think it bodes confidence to the lower-end players that their voices are inherently dwarfed by people with agendas differing than them.

Note that Agenda =/= bad. But what I have seen with the high end is that, they like their aim, and they like their roles, and boy they get their way.

For example, the LRMs will have reduced velocity (used to be spread) -- that's it, that's all they did. I mean like whaaaaat? LRMs felt like they are in the best balance of all time due to Dual-Arc. You can do well for yourself by getting your own locks, or do **** because you're a parasite. I'd rather they rework it.

Next example on the last point:

Y E O N N E, on 20 March 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Right now the Gulag focus is on making weapons useful. I don't think all of the values will result in weapons that are fun to use, and there is still an ongoing issue of significant overlap for some, but there is an undeniable improvement in the utility of several historic under-performers.

True.

Y E O N N E, on 20 March 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Not sure what you mean by min-maxing BS; you cannot even hope to escape min-maxing as it is an inherent part of the game.

That's true. But, I'd rather eliminate it as best as I can, as opposed of a high ceiling of damage output, i'd rather lower the ceiling and increase the floor. That is because the high-end is more likely to leverage said high damage output, and even more so against players of lower skill.

For example. The ATMs, that was supposed to be 2.5/2.0/1.5 damage on their initial proposal that I agreed with, was reverted. That incredibly high-risk high-reward of 3 damage/missile at 120-245m, it's that is what minmaxers bank on, and they opted to retain it for the first PTS iteration. I don't like that, it just serves the high-skill more that is a lot more able to maintain positioning.

Yeah they increased the heat penalty, that reduces over-all sustaining DPS, but that just reinforces poptarting more, like PPCs this patch right here just reinforces poptarting -- and it's even dumber because poptarting with homing weapons are actually easy. That also increases the risk by having to forcefully partitioning shots, but you STILL do monstrous damage.

They could just normalize ATMs to 2 damage with no minimum range, makes it useful at ANY range, even the ER ones. But instead they just retain the high damage in place so that they can leverage it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 March 2021 - 01:57 PM.

[mike29tw]

Never heard of Gulag before this patch, but I'm willing to try out their proposed changes, especially after reading the May 16th patch note.

"We want to create niche for each weapon in the PPC family"
Proceeds to apply blanket change to the entire PPC family regardless of their intended roles

"We want to help LGF compete with other weapons"
Proceeds to massively nerf LGF.

At the very least, Gulag's changes don't contradict itself.
Unfortunately not contradicting oneself is too much to ask for with PGI.