166 replies to this topic

[Bawon Samdi]

Fair enough, but we don't know if and when the rescales will happen. I would prefer to get the rescales first and the weapon changes later, just to be safe. It would also enable us to see how much the rescales change the game. If the effect isn't strong enough it would maybe better to tone down the top performers a bit and to reduce the buff of the other weapon systems.

I will play some games on the test server, but i doubt that i will change my opinion.

[JimHatama]

pattonesque, on 25 March 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

the changes, taken in total (the listed weapons changes, potential mobility changes, and rescales) are specifically intended to increase Time To Kill. This would result in a slower-paced game.

wow. thats just plain lie. their intention is to buff all weapons to most used and increase mobility right? how its the slower pace game?

This changes will DECREASE time to kill(aand increase mobility that will lead to faster paced game), whats up with this argument? Dont you see the table? How can you state just opposite of proposed changes? and potential mobility changes and their effect on TTK are foggy at best(and some weapons wont be effected that much like lasers), all others things will do reverse of what you write

Edited by JimHatama, 25 March 2021 - 11:59 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

If you stand there and get shot in the face, TTK will decrease.

If you twist your torso to spread damage between volleys, TTK will increase.

[MyriadDigits]

JimHatama, on 25 March 2021 - 11:58 PM, said:

wow. thats just plain lie. their intention is to buff all weapons to most used and increase mobility right? how its the slower pace game?

This changes will DECREASE time to kill(aand increase mobility that will lead to faster paced game), whats up with this argument? Dont you see the table? How can you state just opposite of proposed changes? and potential mobility changes and their effect on TTK are foggy at best(and some weapons wont be effected that much like lasers), all others things will do reverse of what you write

Rescale will mean smaller mechs, particularly on the heavier end of the scale. Smaller mechs means smaller targets, smaller targets means more damage spread. More Damage spread means longer time to kill.

Mobility (read: accel/braking, steering, and torso speed, NOT straight line top speed) will mean mechs can better utilize cover and twisting. Accel/braking means a mech can reduce exposure when corner/hill peaking, which translates to a longer time to kill. Steering and torso speed means a mech can better utilize twisting to spread damage, as well as shielding healthy components (fun fact: dead components only transfer 50% of the damage that hits them), which correlates to a longer time to kill.

With weapon changes they are specifically not buffing the current top performing weapon systems, and meaning to use them as a point of reference for balance. The buffs to literally everything else is so everything else can actually keep up with these top performing weapons. On paper, there will be little to no change to time to kill. If there is substantial decrease in time to kill, they fully intend to reduce the buffs of the offending weapons to retain the current time to kill.

Also strikes will have a doubled duration/shell count, but with only one third the damage per shell. Overall less damage, and more time to escape the strike before the full damage arrives. This means less mechs getting completely owned by strikes, and even when they do get owned they won't be getting owned as hard. Both results contribute to a longer time to kill.

[pattonesque]

JimHatama, on 25 March 2021 - 11:58 PM, said:

wow. thats just plain lie. their intention is to buff all weapons to most used and increase mobility right? how its the slower pace game?

This changes will DECREASE time to kill(aand increase mobility that will lead to faster paced game), whats up with this argument? Dont you see the table? How can you state just opposite of proposed changes? and potential mobility changes and their effect on TTK are foggy at best(and some weapons wont be effected that much like lasers), all others things will do reverse of what you write

Hey man check it out, if mechs are smaller and more agile then it takes longer to kill them assuming the pilot knows how to twist. Or even if they don’t know how to twist it’ll still keep them alive a little longer. Think of how difficult it is to hit something small that can twist damage compared to something large that can’t

Other weapons being buffed will not decrease TTK because right now people use weapons like MPL and UAc5/10s that kill very quickly anyways

[JimHatama]

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 12:46 AM, said:

Rescale will mean smaller mechs, particularly on the heavier end of the scale. Smaller mechs means smaller targets, smaller targets means more damage spread. More Damage spread means longer time to kill.

Mobility (read: accel/braking, steering, and torso speed, NOT straight line top speed) will mean mechs can better utilize cover and twisting. Accel/braking means a mech can reduce exposure when corner/hill peaking, which translates to a longer time to kill. Steering and torso speed means a mech can better utilize twisting to spread damage, as well as shielding healthy components (fun fact: dead components only transfer 50% of the damage that hits them), which correlates to a longer time to kill.

This argument is so wrong. I have numbers on weapon buffs just here and thats iron facts = weapon buffs (especially low skill/easy to boat - lasers that nobody ask too. Like med lasers buffs, what? when do they started being UP? ) this is decrease in TTK and faster gameplay. Also I have for a fact that mobility will be increased = faster paced gameplay.

Now you tell me that mobility and size changes will increase TTK. Buts thats not facts, not numbers - that is speculation. How do you now how MUCH will TTK change mobility or in what situations? It CAN be decreased in certain situations and in others dont, and you dont even know how much(but I know for a fact how much it will be decreased). So you cought out of cover? = TTK lower. Your opponent have a good aim? TTK = lower. Your opponent using laser boat that dont rely on leading much? TTK = lower. Playing on open map? TTK = lower.

So we have here a lot of situation where TTK will be lower, and all you have stated are not facts. All I see here is increased game pace and cater to bloating and "pro" player, and I dont see how thats will be better for a game.

Also its a bad logic to counter REAL numbers with some " It will be better with size/agility trust me".

Not that is anything wrong with agility too, Imho PGI done great job at differentiating classes with mobility.

[feeWAIVER]

Just want to point out if you scale large mechs down, without scaling small mechs the same, then small mechs will become bigger from the perspective of large mechs,

IE, a cat looks small to a horse, but not as small to a dog.

[pattonesque]

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

This argument is so wrong. I have numbers on weapon buffs just here and thats iron facts = weapon buffs (especially low skill/easy to boat - lasers that nobody ask too. Like med lasers buffs, what? when do they started being UP? ) this is decrease in TTK and faster gameplay. Also I have for a fact that mobility will be increased = faster paced gameplay.

Now you tell me that mobility and size changes will increase TTK. Buts thats not facts, not numbers - that is speculation. How do you now how MUCH will TTK change mobility or in what situations? It CAN be decreased in certain situations and in others dont, and you dont even know how much(but I know for a fact how much it will be decreased). So you cought out of cover? = TTK lower. Your opponent have a good aim? TTK = lower. Your opponent using laser boat that dont rely on leading much? TTK = lower. Playing on open map? TTK = lower.

So we have here a lot of situation where TTK will be lower, and all you have stated are not facts. All I see here is increased game pace and cater to bloating and "pro" player, and I dont see how thats will be better for a game.

Also its a bad logic to counter REAL numbers with some " It will be better with size/agility trust me".

Not that is anything wrong with agility too, Imho PGI done great job at differentiating classes with mobility.

OK lemme try to break this down for you

The real main killers right now are boated IS MPLs and IS/Clan UAC5/10s. Lots of the best robbits out there mass as many of those as possible and use them to focus people down hardcore

Those weapons are not changed at all in the current PTS iteration to my knowledge. This does not change their TTK

Other weapons have gotten buffs to make them more useful in a variety of situations. You can actually play an SPL knife fighter light again. This means that instead of seeing wolfhounds and K9s with MPLs all the time, you’ll see Firestarters and Cheetahs with SPL builds. This probably decreases TTK a little bit but not as much as you’d think—it just increases the number of viable builds

Now, if that were all that happened, it would be a net decrease in TTK. But the plan is to increase mech agility, decrease mech size, and (I believe, correct me if I’m wrong) futz with quirks. So now, say I bring out a brawler Atlas, one of my favorite old-school builds. Right now if it tries to lead a push it will get mega owned by a million MPLs and UACs. Previous versions of the mech would be able to twist aggressively to spread damage and dole out one or two more alphas before dying. Current versions cannot so this. Once it receives agility buffs and an ensmallening and perhaps new quirks, it will be more survivable. This goes across the board for every mech in the game. Think of how many times you peeked the wrong corner and got utterly wrecked before you could reverse into cover — now you’ll only get half-wrecked and may still be able to contribute to the fight.

[Antares102]

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

Now you tell me that mobility and size changes will increase TTK. Buts thats not facts, not numbers - that is speculation. How do you now how MUCH will TTK change mobility or in what situations? It CAN be decreased in certain situations and in others dont, and you dont even know how much(but I know for a fact how much it will be decreased). So you cought out of cover? = TTK lower. Your opponent have a good aim? TTK = lower. Your opponent using laser boat that dont rely on leading much? TTK = lower. Playing on open map? TTK = lower.

So we have here a lot of situation where TTK will be lower, and all you have stated are not facts. All I see here is increased game pace and cater to bloating and "pro" player, and I dont see how thats will be better for a game.

Also its a bad logic to counter REAL numbers with some " It will be better with size/agility trust me".

Not that is anything wrong with agility too, Imho PGI done great job at differentiating classes with mobility.

Ok then mister only-numbers-matter if the damage of the Clan MPL damage is increased from 6.5 to 7 which is what Cauldron currently proposes how much is the TTK ACROSS THE BOARD decreased? Please provide a comprehensive calculation.

Same goes for any other buffs lets see....

Medium Laser (IS):
Heat decreased to 3.25 (from 3.4)
Cooldown decreased to 3.2 (from 3.5)

Again, please provide a comprehensive calculation.

...

I bet a yearly salary that you cannot and all you will come up is "feelings" too because while a sound statistical model that can predict TTK could exist you certainly dont have one. And its defenitly not TTK goes down 7.6% ACROSS THE BOARD because Clan MPL damage is increased from 6.5 to 7.

Thus, you defeat your own argument.

And now that we are in feeling-realm for weapons stats my feeling is that Cauldron proposed agility stats (=acceleration, deacceleration, torso twist, turn speed) increases combined with rescale (=smaller mechs) means that TTK is going up by:

• at least 10% for the average player
  
• at least 25% for better players
  
• at least 50% for the best players

Personally I would expect that my TTK goes up by 30% if Cauldron changes are implementes as I have understood them.

Edited by Antares102, 26 March 2021 - 08:49 AM.

[pattonesque]

like OK, let me use a different comparison

I am the commissioner of Major League Baseball. I have decided I will move the mound closer to the plate.

How much close I move it matters, obviously. If it's a few inches, that's one thing. If it's 50 feet, that's quite another. But regardless, you do not need to know the numbers to understand that moving the mound closer to the plate is better for the pitcher and worse for the batter.

The same principle applies here. You have weapons being buffed to catch up with the good weapons everyone else uses anyways, mobility being increased to you can better spread or avoid that damage, and a rescale downwards so mechs are tougher to hit. The numbers matter but assuming nothing out of left field you can reasonably deduce that TTK will increase. Mechs may be and feel more agile but engagements will take longer.

[YueFei]

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

This argument is so wrong. I have numbers on weapon buffs just here and thats iron facts = weapon buffs (especially low skill/easy to boat - lasers that nobody ask too. Like med lasers buffs, what? when do they started being UP? ) this is decrease in TTK and faster gameplay. Also I have for a fact that mobility will be increased = faster paced gameplay.

Mobility doesn't let you shoot your guns any faster. Even if you could re-peek the same damn corner 5 times in 2 seconds, it won't let you shoot your guns more often.

Quote

Now you tell me that mobility and size changes will increase TTK. Buts thats not facts, not numbers - that is speculation. How do you now how MUCH will TTK change mobility or in what situations? It CAN be decreased in certain situations and in others dont, and you dont even know how much(but I know for a fact how much it will be decreased). So you cought out of cover? = TTK lower. Your opponent have a good aim? TTK = lower. Your opponent using laser boat that dont rely on leading much? TTK = lower. Playing on open map? TTK = lower.

TTK is low if you can't utilize all of your armor and just get CT-cored or XL-checked.

It is much higher if you can utilize most of your armor.

Agility lets you spread the incoming damage to utilize most of your armor. This is borne out both by experience and also mathematically.

Quote

So we have here a lot of situation where TTK will be lower, and all you have stated are not facts. All I see here is increased game pace and cater to bloating and "pro" player, and I dont see how thats will be better for a game.

Also its a bad logic to counter REAL numbers with some " It will be better with size/agility trust me".

Not that is anything wrong with agility too, Imho PGI done great job at differentiating classes with mobility.

Here's some real numbers for you:

If you have torso hitbox sections that were 2.4 meters wide, and accelerate at 13.11 kph/s, and turn at 42.4 deg/sec and twist at 76.5 deg/sec:
Human reaction time to complex visual stimuli is roughly 250ms. If we're talking PPFLD weapons, then the projectile travel time at a weapon's typical engagement distance would be another ~250ms, for a total of 500ms. E.g., AC20 at 250 meters, with projectile velocity of 750 m/s, will cover that distance in 333ms.

In 500ms:
Your acceleration will be able to displace laterally 0.4552 meters.
You can leg-turn + twist a total of 59.45 degrees. This will narrow the apparent profile of your hitboxes to 1.219 meters.
Against a shot perfectly-aimed at the center of a torso hitbox, you'd need to displace roughly 0.6095 meters to juke incoming fire to an adjacent hitbox instead. At 0.4552 meters displacement, this is not enough.

Now, take that same mech, shrink it down 86%. Now the torso hitboxes are 2.064 meters wide to start with. Increase acceleration to 20kph/s. Increase leg turn rate to 55 deg/sec and torso twist rate to 90 deg/sec.
In 500ms:
Your acceleration can displace 0.6944 meters.
You can leg-turn + twist a total of 72.5 degrees, narrowing the apparent profile of each torso hitbox to 0.620 meters, so that a shot aimed at the exact center has a margin of 0.310 meters on either side.
0.6944 is greater than 0.310 meters. With this scaling and these agility figures, this mech can spread damage even against perfectly-aimed PPFLD shots.

Now, here's the big reveal:
The above figures are from the ATLAS. The top figures are the current values. The latter figures are the Cauldron's proposed changes. Holy crap, it's almost as if those guys know what they're doing!

Edited by YueFei, 26 March 2021 - 09:07 AM.

[MyriadDigits]

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

This argument is so wrong. I have numbers on weapon buffs just here and thats iron facts = weapon buffs (especially low skill/easy to boat - lasers that nobody ask too. Like med lasers buffs, what? when do they started being UP? ) this is decrease in TTK and faster gameplay.

ML can't keep up with MPL, hence, ML gets buffed. In fact, that's the theme of the changes. The 4 "good" weapons (IS MPL, UAC5/10, LB10) are being left untouched while everything is being brought up to their level. This shouldn't significantly change TTK, as the 4 good weapons are the one that dictate the TTK.

Additionally, lasers are easy to hit things with, but its difficult to actually focus that damage on account of needing to hold the laser burn on the same component for the duration of the burn. Mobility changes will make lasers more difficult to effectively utilize by nature of reducing exposure and better enabling damage spreading.

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

Also I have for a fact that mobility will be increased = faster paced gameplay.

Now you tell me that mobility and size changes will increase TTK. Buts thats not facts, not numbers - that is speculation.

Allowing players to be more defensive makes the game faster? I'd love to see your, ahem, numbers for how that works out. Because you see, my numbers tell me an unskilled, max armor King Crab has a total 927 hit points (armor and structure), only 642 if you ignore the legs and head. However, only 211 of those hit points are on the CT. If damage is not spread, be it by twisting or skillful opposition, that mech will die after it has taken 211 points of damage. With effective torso twisting however, you could very well triple the amount of damage you can take before you die of CT death. More than that even, if you utilized proper shielding when a Side Torso is destroyed, as damage hitting a destroyed component on passes on 50% of the damage to the next component. In an ultimate ideal situation (truly perfect twisting, shielding, and the use of a standard engine) you could in theory take up to 853 points damage before dying. Of course the reality is quite often less than that ideal, but the numbers are there.

More mobility means it'll be easier to approach that ideal. In other words, more mobility inherently increases time to kill.

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

How do you now how MUCH will TTK change mobility or in what situations?

While I can figure from context clues what you're trying to say here I'd recommend taking a second pass of your writing before submitting. That aside, I actually covered the situations in which mobility increases TTK in my previous comment. Peaking out and back into cover (hills and corners), and twisting (which has a lengthy explanation in this very comment).

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

It CAN be decreased in certain situations and in others dont, and you dont even know how much(but I know for a fact how much it will be decreased). So you cought out of cover? = TTK lower. Your opponent have a good aim? TTK = lower. Your opponent using laser boat that dont rely on leading much? TTK = lower. Playing on open map? TTK = lower.

Balance should not be made around large skill disparities (The tiers are, after all, intended to reduce the skill disparity in a given match). All that will accomplish is introduction of bully mechanics, and bully mechanics will only hurt the game.

Balance should not be made around players in a bad position succeeding against players in a good position. They took an environmental advantage, they deserve to have it mean something.

In general, balance should not be made based upon worst case extremes, but the assumption that combatants will be of equal skill standing on equal ground. Regardless of how much skill is actually present.

JimHatama, on 26 March 2021 - 07:21 AM, said:

So we have here a lot of situation where TTK will be lower, and all you have stated are not facts. All I see here is increased game pace and cater to bloating and "pro" player, and I dont see how thats will be better for a game.

Also its a bad logic to counter REAL numbers with some " It will be better with size/agility trust me".

We now stand in a peculiar situation wherein I have brought in objective numerical fact, while you have not.

[Kroete]

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 12:46 AM, said:

Rescale will mean smaller mechs, particularly on the heavier end of the scale. Smaller mechs means smaller targets, smaller targets means more damage spread. More Damage spread means longer time to kill.

Will they up the smaller mechs or shrink the big mechs?
The first will reduce ttk, the last will increase ttk but to a lesser degree then the first will reduce it.
Will they even do a rescale?

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 11:49 AM, said:

We now stand in a peculiar situation wherein I have brought in objective numerical fact, while you have not.

For the most of the world a plan or hope is not a fact.*
Until pgi will clearly do a rescale and explain how its done we should not count on it and use it as balancing factor for damage. Its not a xml change, it will cost more money, like working on the matchmaker, what they are not doing ...

About your "numerical fact": How much will the ttk decrease from the weapon changes, who much inrease from the agility and how much from the resize? Until you can call these numbers and explain how you find it and then prove it with an reasonly number of systematical tests involving a playerbase matching composition of players from all skills, its not a fact.

YueFei, on 26 March 2021 - 09:03 AM, said:

With this scaling and these agility figures, this mech can spread damage even against perfectly-aimed PPFLD shots.
...
Now, here's the big reveal:
The above figures are from the ATLAS.

Will the be there a tutu for the dancing balarina 100 ton atlas?
Again using hopes and plans as "fact", did pgi stated they will do the rescale and shrink the big mechs?

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 11:49 AM, said:

ML can't keep up with MPL, hence, ML gets buffed. In fact, that's the theme of the changes. The 4 "good" weapons (IS MPL, UAC5/10, LB10) are being left untouched while everything is being brought up to their level. This shouldn't significantly change TTK, as the 4 good weapons are the one that dictate the TTK.

Compplayer bubble,
missing that the big majority of players are not compplayers,
using more often other weapons than the best performers.

Edit: *Was realy hard not to use "orange clown" or "murican" while talking about that "facts"!

Edited by Kroete, 26 March 2021 - 12:29 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

Kroete, on 26 March 2021 - 11:53 AM, said:

Will they up the smaller mechs or shrink the big mechs?

Shrink the fats is the sentiment I've seen from Cauldron members.

Kroete, on 26 March 2021 - 11:53 AM, said:

Will they even do a rescale?

Afaik that's the hope, as PGI has shown interest in approaching it, but as you said, hope isn't a guarantee. Hence why I focused more of my attention here on the mobility changes.

Kroete, on 26 March 2021 - 11:53 AM, said:

Will the be there a tutu for the dancing balarina 100 ton atlas?

Its not remotely as extreme as you think.

Kroete, on 26 March 2021 - 11:53 AM, said:

Compplayer bubble,
missing that the big majority of players are not compplayers,
using more often other weapons than the best performers.

Not just comp. T1 QP typically sees the quartet running around doing the real work. Every other weapon is working their asses off just to keep up. It may marginally decrease TTK considering the occasional loredad that actually knows how to pilot and shoot, no longer being quite as handicapped by mech or weapon choice.

However, the lower in tiers you go though, players are less aggressive with their movements and firing behavior, so it'll likely have even less impact there.

Also the decision to buff, rather than nerf is *because* of the majority of players not being comp players that'd just switch to whatever new thing is best. People like buffs more than nerfs, so when some casual logs in and finds out their boom gun shoots better than it did the day before they'll be pretty darn happy.

[Kroete]

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

Shrink the fats is the sentiment I've seen from Cauldron members.

They have a plan and hope, but they dont know if and how.

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

Afaik that's the hope, as PGI has shown interest in approaching it, but as you said, hope isn't a guarantee. Hence why I focused more of my attention here on the mobility changes.

Just a hope ...
... for both.

MyriadDigits, on 26 March 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

Not just comp. T1 QP typically sees the quartet running around doing the real work. Every other weapon is working their asses off just to keep up. It may marginally decrease TTK considering the occasional loredad that actually knows how to pilot and shoot, no longer being quite as handicapped by mech or weapon choice.

However, the lower in tiers you go though, players are less aggressive with their movements and firing behavior, so it'll likely have even less impact there.

Also the decision to buff, rather than nerf is *because* of the majority of players not being comp players that'd just switch to whatever new thing is best. People like buffs more than nerfs, so when some casual logs in and finds out their boom gun shoots better than it did the day before they'll be pretty darn happy.

How many t1 we have and how many of the rest?
What will happen if the rest (the big majority) does more damage?
And will the rest magically twist and move more?

Edited by Kroete, 26 March 2021 - 12:44 PM.

[pattonesque]

Kroete, on 26 March 2021 - 12:38 PM, said:

How many t1 we have and how many of the rest?
What will happen if the rest (the big majority) does more damage?
And will the rest magically twist and move more?

Even lower tier players do try to twist and move so yeah it’ll affect them too

[Dormaus]

playing a crab has taught me a lot about twisting while moving out of fire.

[Kroete]

pattonesque, on 26 March 2021 - 12:51 PM, said:

Even lower tier players do try to twist and move so yeah it’ll affect them too

Will they twist and move more?
If not the majority will still do and also get more damage, reducing the overall ttk.

[Antares102]

Kroete, on 26 March 2021 - 12:59 PM, said:

Will they twist and move more?
If not the majority will still do and also get more damage, reducing the overall ttk.

Sorry, but the biggest mistake that one can make is "balancing" the game for the lowest tier of players.
How do you want to rescue somebody from being killed if he just stares at you for 5 sec when you come around the corner and then starts shooting. I experienced this so many times in MWO.
The point is that you have to learn at least some skills to compete and not everything can be served on a silver plate for you.
The matching making and tier system of MWO isnt a great help either here of course.

I can just compare this to my experience in Planetside 2 where I utterly suck and TTK is like <2sec in CQC if you encounter an average player. You HAVE to adapt yourself and CANNOT just blame everything on others or balance.

Edited by Antares102, 26 March 2021 - 01:19 PM.

[Gagis]

I'd consider it a good thing if the game gives the low tier players some slack.

Ever since the engine desync and nerfening of everything that moves and then some, the game has felt like its actively fighting against you when you try to play it. Skilled players can work around that, but it must be holding a lot of people back.