102 replies to this topic

[Meep Meep]

Temporary Axis, on 26 March 2021 - 12:48 AM, said:

And yet, he has a point and you failed to address it....

Well if the point is that laser vomit isn't 'meta' then why do you see them boating every match? Maybe what you consider 'meta' isn't actually 'meta'? Maybe 'meta' is an opinion and everyone has one?

[Bud Crue]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 01:24 AM, said:

Well if the point is that laser vomit isn't 'meta' then why do you see them boating every match? Maybe what you consider 'meta' isn't actually 'meta'? Maybe 'meta' is an opinion and everyone has one?

The reason so many of us play laser vomit builds is two-fold. First, they don't take much skill to play. Second, the game mechanics encourage min/maxing both in builds and skill tree, and vomit builds are just a simplistic way to take advantage of that system.

[Gagis]

General Solo, on 26 March 2021 - 01:22 AM, said:

So those in Tier 2, 3, 4 and 5 are worse than that?

Yep. The average skill level of MWO playerbase is very low and has been going down over time as players who start the game play until they are good and then get bored as the game has no End Game after Quick Play. Good players are likely top stop playing when theres no challenge left. A newbie who is fast to learn is likely to blaze trough the tiers, and then quit. We have been hemorraging skilled players ever since FP died. FP used to be the end game that could keep players engaged for a bit more time.

Only remaining End Game is competitive play, but since that does not appeal to everyone, an extremely wide skill gap is formed between the experienced top players who never quit and the rest of us who are maxed out Tier 1. Most of their peers with lots of experience quit instead of continuing to practice a game with no end game to it so the handful of those who keep playing against all odds remain just absurdly better than the rest of the playerbase. This effect makes tiering players extra hard, since top of Tier 1 is far from what would be top rank in a normal game that has an end game that keeps players engaged and trying to improve but we still have a few actual top tier players who are at a skill level where a living game's top tiers would be.

Soon the average skill level will be low enough even Tier 1 will stop nascaring, simply because nascaring is too hard.

[Meep Meep]

Bud Crue, on 26 March 2021 - 03:10 AM, said:

The reason so many of us play laser vomit builds is two-fold. First, they don't take much skill to play. Second, the game mechanics encourage min/maxing both in builds and skill tree, and vomit builds are just a simplistic way to take advantage of that system.

Sure and nothing wrong with that. There are so many ways to fit out your mech that depends on the players personal skill. This would be their 'meta' to have fun. My 'meta' to have fun right now is lrm spam fits and to play close to the frontline and get los locks to maximize damage. Yet apparently even though I'm getting solo kills and kmdd I'm a noobtuber wasting time. Maybe they got lurmed too many times dunno.

[Bud Crue]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 03:27 AM, said:

Sure and nothing wrong with that. There are so many ways to fit out your mech that depends on the players personal skill. This would be their 'meta' to have fun. My 'meta' to have fun right now is lrm spam fits and to play close to the frontline and get los locks to maximize damage. Yet apparently even though I'm getting solo kills and kmdd I'm a noobtuber wasting time. Maybe they got lurmed too many times dunno.

To each their own, certainly, but what is fun for you or even personally effective for you does not make it meta. I too play "for fun" but I am fully aware that many of my mechs and their builds are not "meta" in terms of the strict mechanics of what is available in the game and the manner in which it is played at the highest level.

[Meep Meep]

Bud Crue, on 26 March 2021 - 04:11 AM, said:

To each their own, certainly, but what is fun for you or even personally effective for you does not make it meta. I too play "for fun" but I am fully aware that many of my mechs and their builds are not "meta" in terms of the strict mechanics of what is available in the game and the manner in which it is played at the highest level.

Which is why I said 'meta' is in the eye of the beholder. Quick play players are not really going to care much for faction play 'meta' nor will solaris players care for either 'meta' etc.. Each mode has their own dynamics and even within each mode there is no hard and fast 'meta' everyone uses like a rubber stamp. What might be 'meta' in faction play will be determined by the map and tonnage limits and so on.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 04:58 AM, said:

Which is why I said 'meta' is in the eye of the beholder.

You keep using that word...

[Gagis]

Its not that hard. Don't be obtuse.

Metagame, or the game after, beyond or transcending the game, from Greek μετα, is the aspect of games where you learn and try to predict how others are likely to be playing and make your own choices based on that understanding. For many games, the metagame is the part of the experience that is most fun.

In MWO, there is a metagame of mech choices where you need to be prepared for the MPL, UAC and cERPPC mechs the most dangerous players will be in. Hence how people say those mechs are a part of the metagame or meta mechs that make up the bulk of the relevant information you need to keep track of to play the metagame. Lasers are currently off-meta since they have been performing below the curve ever since the last heat/laser nerfs. If you know you will be facing a player named Gagis, you can expect he will be running lasers more often than not, and you may play the metagame by preparing for that, but that doesn't mean what Gagis plays is a part of the general established metagame of what is the main threat you need to be prepared to counter the most. The counter-Gagis metagame is too niche to be relevant.

Edited by Gagis, 26 March 2021 - 05:35 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Alexander of Macedon, on 26 March 2021 - 05:33 AM, said:

You keep using that word...

Well thats cute but it's not an argument.

[RockmachinE]

Meta in pvp videogame terms means - playing in ways that work the best at defeating other players. In other words, what is currently observed and considered by the overall playerbase as the most effective configuration given the current state of game's mechanics and balance.

When the game gets changed and rebalanced meta naturally changes.

The longer a game remains unchanged the more the meta gets refined. Really old games have highly polished meta where its extremely hard to come up with something that will change the current paradigm or break meta as people have pretty much tried everything and found configurations that are the most effective.

There's no "personal" meta, that's player preference and character. Rhere is an objective and measurable meta given for any pvp game in its current state.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 26 March 2021 - 05:59 AM.

[Meep Meep]

There is no 'meta' for quick play because there is no organization nor expectation of teamwork nor knowledge of map or team composition when you pick your mech and build. 'Meta' in quick play is whatever you want it to be as long as it performs. If you want to argue about faction or comp play thats another topic since this is about tiers in quick play.

[RockmachinE]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 06:02 AM, said:

There is no 'meta' for quick play because there is no organization nor expectation of teamwork nor knowledge of map or team composition when you pick your mech and build. 'Meta' in quick play is whatever you want it to be as long as it performs. If you want to argue about faction or comp play thats another topic since this is about tiers in quick play.

There are mechs which preform objectively better then others, there are weapon systems individually and weapon systems configurations that are objectively better then others.

That is meta.

There's always a meta if there wasn't any you would not see certain configurations more often then others doing objectively better then others.

4xUAC10 Kodiak would be an example. The mech was balanced in a certain way and the weapon balance was such that it allowed boating of 4UAC10s at the same time.There were always a bunch of Quad UAC Kodiaks running around wrecking face. Deadly mech in virtually any situation. They were extremely hard to take down 1v1 unless you had a dedicated bralwer build.

Now this build is ineffective and nonsensical. Game changed, balance changed. New meta.

That is meta. There is always meta, the question is if you see it or not.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 26 March 2021 - 06:11 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 06:02 AM, said:

There is no 'meta' for quick play because there is no organization nor expectation of teamwork nor knowledge of map or team composition when you pick your mech and build. 'Meta' in quick play is whatever you want it to be as long as it performs. If you want to argue about faction or comp play thats another topic since this is about tiers in quick play.

No, meta stands for something - Most Effective Tactic Available. You could also argue that it means the word "meta", which is synonymous with the acronym. Therefore, meta is not different from person to person, it is not an opinion, it is not in the eye of the beholder. Laser vomit builds are usually heat inefficient and require time spent staring at your target, whereas ballistic builds fire quickly, are generally cooler, and in most cases ammunition requirements are not so significant as to give laser builds any sort of advantage. The currently most effective tactic available in mwo is to boat (ultra) autocannons or clan er-ppcs. The former gives you great mid range burst or long range sustain (depending on u/ac loadout), and the latter gives you great long range burst. Inner-sphere medium pulse lasers are as close to laser vomit as you are going to get right now if you are looking for meta laser builds.

Edited by RickySpanish, 26 March 2021 - 06:26 AM.

[Meep Meep]

RickySpanish, on 26 March 2021 - 06:24 AM, said:

Therefore, meta is not different from person to person, it is not an opinion, it is not in the eye of the beholder.

Louis Brofist, on 26 March 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

That is meta. There is always meta, the question is if you see it or not.

Not in quick play. You might as well be playing with bots that have a randomizer function for each mech before they launch.

Again this topic is about tiers in quick play not if a certain build gives you an edge in organized competitive play over other builds.

Lrm span doesn't work well in organized play or only in very niche circumstances. But in quick play it's just as viable as anything else and if applied properly is going to help dominate the fight. So in quick play 'meta' is whatever you can personally bring to the dice roll of skill and mechs that you do well in even if the spreadsheet lords have deemed them insufficient. Maybe projectile builds are more efficient that lasers. Doesn't seem to matter in quick play because every match is filled with every build imaginable. So maybe talk to those guys if this 'meta' is so important to you.

[RickySpanish]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 06:28 AM, said:

Not in quick play. You might as well be playing with bots that have a randomizer function for each mech before they launch.

Again this topic is about tiers in quick play not if a certain build gives you an edge in organized competitive play over other builds.

Lrm span doesn't work well in organized play or only in very niche circumstances. But in quick play it's just as viable as anything else and if applied properly is going to help dominate the fight. So in quick play 'meta' is whatever you can personally bring to the dice roll of skill and mechs that you do well in even if the spreadsheet lords have deemed them insufficient. Maybe projectile builds are more efficient that lasers. Doesn't seem to matter in quick play because every match is filled with every build imaginable. So maybe talk to those guys if this 'meta' is so important to you.

Even in QP there are absolutely builds that will, when played over enough games, give you an advantage. You're just also contending with the chaos of such a disorganized game mode that means "suffering through" particularly unfortunate map/team combinations. Since it is difficult to predict as you rightly said, wtf to expect in one qp match to the next, it makes even more sense to stick to a particular generally effective loadout.

If you check my rather average stats on Jarl's, you can see a couple of seasons where my w/l is almost exactly 1 to 1. That's where I piloted meta mechs like uac spam to cover my dodgier play with "fun" builds. The most recent seasons I haven't done that, and just like this season I am clearly down matches by about ten or so. Mech choice matters over enough games played.

Edited by RickySpanish, 26 March 2021 - 07:35 AM.

[pbiggz]

RickySpanish, on 26 March 2021 - 07:32 AM, said:

Even in QP there are absolutely builds that will, when played over enough games, give you an advantage. You're just also contending with the chaos of such a disorganized game mode that means "suffering through" particularly unfortunate map/team combinations. Since it is difficult to predict as you rightly said, wtf to expect in one qp match to the next, it makes even more sense to stick to a particular generally effective loadout.

If you check my rather average stats on Jarl's, you can see a couple of seasons where my w/l is almost exactly 1 to 1. That's where I piloted meta mechs like uac spam to cover my dodgier play with "fun" builds. The most recent seasons I haven't done that, and just like this season I am clearly down matches by about ten or so. Mech choice matters over enough games played.

80% of the match is won or lost in the mechlab, before you even queue.

[RickySpanish]

pbiggz, on 26 March 2021 - 07:36 AM, said:

80% of the match is won or lost in the mechlab, before you even queue.

It certainly can be. Other times the queue just screws one team completely and little you will do can help. BUT, for every other time running a good, effective build obviously improves your odds of success.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 05:37 AM, said:

Well thats cute but it's not an argument.

It's not an argument, it's pointing out that you're arguing from an inherently fallacious perspective.

"Meta" in the gaming sense is by definition the set of strongest/most effective options available to players. Not "most popular". Not "easiest to use". Not even "most damaging". Meta has less than nothing to do with personal preference; it's not subjective except in cases where game mechanics are insufficiently understood by the entire playerbase to the point where it's unclear which options are most effective.

MWO is not one of those games. The mechlab side of MWO is effectively a solved game subject to occasional changes. There is enough quantitative data and qualitative understanding of how each chassis and piece of equipment functions for players with a good understanding of the game to work out through analysis and experimentation what the most effective builds are. Those builds, whatever they might be at the time, are objectively the meta for MWO.

This is not because "good player said so". The most effective options are defined by all the interlocking elements of how the game works and how each component & chassis performs; good players are just the mechanism by which those most effective options are uncovered and occasionally explained.

For example, cERPPCs aren't meta right now because someone said they are. They're meta because they have several elements to how they work and what their stats are which combine to make them a very effective weapon, further bolstered by the bad XML edit that doubled their splash damage in the last patch.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 26 March 2021 - 08:23 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Well thats some real nice theory crafting you gents have going on but if there is a 'meta' in quick play the 'meta' is roll the dice and hope you don't get a tater team. Builds are all over the place and you can get dakka spam one match or laser vomit the next or lrm/atm belchers the very next or some unholy mix of all of them. Again the people you need to talk to isn't me. It's the players in quick play since they don't seem to care much for your opinions of what is 'meta' or not.

[EnochsBook]

Meep Meep, on 26 March 2021 - 02:45 PM, said:

Well thats some real nice theory crafting you gents have going on but if there is a 'meta' in quick play the 'meta' is roll the dice and hope you don't get a tater team. Builds are all over the place and you can get dakka spam one match or laser vomit the next or lrm/atm belchers the very next or some unholy mix of all of them. Again the people you need to talk to isn't me. It's the players in quick play since they don't seem to care much for your opinions of what is 'meta' or not.

This has already been explained to you a couple of times but I'll take a shot at it.

"Meta" is not what most people are playing in a single match or at a given time. It's not what's popular, what pugs use or what competitive players use (although it can be all those things). It has nothing to do with what people use or don't use in the solo queue.

"Meta" in the context used in this thread is the builds and types of builds that have been evaluated to be the most effective at killing enemy robots. Right now, IS MPLs deal a good amount of damage, have a relatively short cooldown, and generate relatively little heat. They are therefore meta weapons, and any mech with decent hitboxes that can mount 5-6 of them has a good chance of being meta as well. So a lot of people use them. But there could be literally 0 people with IS MPLs builds, and they would still be meta.
Meta isn't a popularity contest, it's an objective assessment of the characteristics of a weapon or mech.

Edited by EnochsBook, 26 March 2021 - 03:29 PM.