23 replies to this topic

[Sean Lang]

[w0qj]

Would an entirely new MWO map be possible (I wish for this!), or are we just talking switching around the spawn points?

[Lanzman]

They talk a lot about Canyon Network and HPG Manifold, with a little more about Polar Highlands and Rubellite Oasis. Basically talking lack of sight lines, messed up spawn locations, and proposed changes to (at first) Canyon to add better access to the different areas. Like most of Sean's videos, there's a lot of dead time while you're waiting for his guest or himself to think of the word he wants and stuff like that. It's worth watching this one just for the insight on the problems with the various maps.

I'd add that no matter what adjustments are made to which maps, the original unaltered versions need to stay in the rotation as well, kinda like how we have new and old versions of Forest Colony. Just doing that means more maps overall.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah they are taking a look at one map at a time to make some potential changes to landscape in areas that cause problems or lead to bad gameplay. Canyon is first up and they are making sure its balanced on both sides and improving accessibility for mechs that are slow and/or don't have jump jets.

[EnochsBook]

Lanzman, on 30 March 2021 - 11:30 AM, said:

I'd add that no matter what adjustments are made to which maps, the original unaltered versions need to stay in the rotation as well, kinda like how we have new and old versions of Forest Colony. Just doing that means more maps overall.

Completely disagree, the whole point is to fix maps and get rid of the bad stuff. It wouldn't make sense to fix the bad spawnpoints on Tourmaline and then keep the old version in the game...

We're not strapped for the amount of maps, the quality is what's lacking.

Edited by EnochsBook, 30 March 2021 - 12:17 PM.

[East Indy]

At around 31:00 the discussion moves to changing map experiences for game modes. Navid brought up improvising with non-centered Domination/spawn equidistant points. Phil discouraged it but I'd argue it's by far the most practical way to introduce new parts of the map since, at the end of the day, players logged in to clash with another team and they'll pick the shortest route.

Alpine Peaks is the only instance of using a map's side lane and while I appreciate Tygerlily's input, it's an unfortunate example of an even worse central topographical feature splitting teams.

There are tons of serviceable map sections that go unused because the center point is in the middle.

Crimson Strait has the wonderful but usually neglected city block, while the "saddle" is hinted at on Assault but not enough and fights can go either way easily. There's a factory complex in Polar Highlands that was the site of one of the most fun matches I've had on that map. Tourmaline's sides can be played from almost any direction. New Forest Colony has tons of cool features that are overlooked. Don't need new maps when spawns and implied directions can take us there.

Edited by East Indy, 30 March 2021 - 01:26 PM.

[JediPanther]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 March 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

Yeah they are taking a look at one map at a time to make some potential changes to landscape in areas that cause problems or lead to bad gameplay. Canyon is first up and they are making sure its balanced on both sides and improving accessibility for mechs that are slow and/or don't have jump jets.

I think Canyon is the best map pgi has made for mwo. The only real problem is the same one that has been around so long pgi just went meh and made "fixing" it into the hill climb nodes on skill tree. The hill climb slow down is what makes moving up and down the ramps/inclines trouble seome for heavs/asuls but a mech with just two jump jets can usually just jump up the wall.

Having jump jets gives a significant advantage in dom mode when one side's light can literately jump jet the wall into the dom starting the count down while the other side races around to get up and over a ramp.

[Tranderas]

JediPanther, on 30 March 2021 - 02:49 PM, said:

I think Canyon is the best map pgi has made for mwo. The only real problem is the same one that has been around so long pgi just went meh and made "fixing" it into the hill climb nodes on skill tree. The hill climb slow down is what makes moving up and down the ramps/inclines trouble seome for heavs/asuls but a mech with just two jump jets can usually just jump up the wall.

Having jump jets gives a significant advantage in dom mode when one side's light can literately jump jet the wall into the dom starting the count down while the other side races around to get up and over a ramp.

Canyon is one of the maps I want to see least because it's so focused on rotation around that one central point, which is a problem on most of the maps I dislike. From the constant rotation around the raised platform on Grim, to Mining's massive platform, to that one out-of-place hill that every fight happens around on Alpine, there's simply too much incentive to rotate around.

The common theme of maps I like is vertical and horizontal firing lines. Ruby has tunnels and high ground along both sides, with super-wide high and low ground as well, so you can play at all ranges with all weapons systems without needing to spin right around. Likewise while Solaris City does have a central ground which is common to fight around, it's just as common to see people fighting directly through it thanks to the raised freeways and balconies that allow for lots of vertical peek play.

[Wattila]

You can totally play Canyon on the outside, and it's the more effective way to do it IMO. The problem is that the other team is funneled to the big ramp by design. Just adding some slopes to allow heavier mechs to climb to the top plateau would fix many things. Same problem with Hibernal that is essentially Canyon but with a different skin. Just improve accessibility in general - nobody likes getting stuck in terrain, tiny ramps, stairs on Viridian etc.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

level Design -Great Idea for Tourmaline /Incursion to place a Base with Objectives and walls in a Big Couldron thats have Terrain around thats Higher as the complete Base with Walls..good thats the Base is in the Gamemod uninteresting

[pbiggz]

might as well plug it here, but game modes as we have them now do not make good use of map real estate, on smaller maps the games tend to nascar, and on larger maps the games waste 80% of the map.

Rotating objective locations and moving spawns around with them would add a degree of variability to many maps, allowing matches to play out in different parts of a map or from different angles.

[PocketYoda]

The maps that need help the most are polar, alpine, hibernal, canyon and the frozen city poke fest domination.. Seriously need ways to geting into brawling range without being poked and lurmed to death every match..

If mechs had better agility this would be less of an issue.

Edited by Samial, 31 March 2021 - 05:09 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Samial, on 31 March 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

The maps that need help the most are polar, alpine, hibernal, canyon and the frozen city poke fest domination.. Seriously need ways to geting into brawling range without being poked and lurmed to death every match..

than wait and let the enemy comes in your Range ,its the most fail from new Players to run in the Action and can not waiting or undestand Tactical movememnt and Awareness...Run to the Ridge and in the focus fire its bad ,run with a Group in a tunnel and not rush and stop in it by first enemy Fire =Dead of the group ,Many enemys can firing in Tunnel and only the first 2 can fire back and block each support Fire from all behind ...thats all the most errors.
When im Have a brawl Build ,so im wait by the assaults an flanks thats the action comes to me .
When im run with a Pistol in a Long Range Shooting area, its my Fail.The best By MWO is not a Specialist Build thats useless in 40% of the Situations ...the best is a allrounder.
-max Radar deprivation
-LRM warning= cover(like Trenches in Polar)
-never go in direct libne back , diagonal back sidewards from the direction of LRM Fire
AMS
-never stand to long by a place or walk in open Areas ,when the Enemys in LOS

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 31 March 2021 - 09:55 AM.

[Lanzman]

EnochsBook, on 30 March 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

Completely disagree, the whole point is to fix maps and get rid of the bad stuff. It wouldn't make sense to fix the bad spawnpoints on Tourmaline and then keep the old version in the game...

We're not strapped for the amount of maps, the quality is what's lacking.

Spawn locations have nothing to do with map design. You can fix the spawns on almost all of the maps without having to do any reconfiguring of the terrain at all.

[Wildstreak]

Alpine - same old issues.
Canyon - I see plenty of activity in non-Conquest near the rail line besides center.
Canyon Domination - special mention for all the times I got a Medium / Heavy to circle first from knowing the proper pathing combined with lighter Mechs choosing to hunt rather than start / stop countdown. Real easy if you spawn in either the E5 or B4 lance.
Caustic - not much can be done with this.
Crimson - G, H, 7 and 8 rows little used except during base captures.
Forest - get rid of the G8 / G9 canyon.
Frozen - once someone picks where to fight, that is where it is.
Grim - aka Moon Arena not counting Conquest.
HPG - aka Moonbase Arena.
Polar - needs better trenches in some spots.
River - needs a better way to go from E6 to E5 besides the bridge especially for bigger Mechs.
Rubellite - seems OK.
Terra - I forget where the spot is but there is one access route to center you have to zig-zag through that needs more room due to all the players who decide to pile in there then stall out peeking in front blocking half their team behind them.
Mining - has issues with spots your Mech can get stuck in.
Tourmaline - like American desert real estate, a lot for sale but no one buying.
Viridian - I fear nothing done will fix the players obsession with the E5 hill. Look at Viridian Domination, circle is centered on D5 but one side always insists on going to E5 and no one gets in circle until ~30 seconds are past for the other team.
Solaris City - PLEASE GET PLAYERS AWAY FROM CITY CENTER. The sheer amount of times seeing 6 people all competing to shoot through the same narrow alley that only fits 2.

[TheArisen]

pbiggz, on 31 March 2021 - 06:33 AM, said:

might as well plug it here, but game modes as we have them now do not make good use of map real estate, on smaller maps the games tend to nascar, and on larger maps the games waste 80% of the map.

Rotating objective locations and moving spawns around with them would add a degree of variability to many maps, allowing matches to play out in different parts of a map or from different angles.

Yeah even if there is just 2 or 3 pre-sets, having multiple places for the domination circle or conquest cap points would bring some variety. On certain maps they could even consider rotating the assault bases so fights develop differently.

[Alexander of Macedon]

The problem is that the extremely limited objective play available in MWO precludes basically anything except the "walk into each other or chase each other's tails" TDM meta. At best it appends "two or three people stand on tiny square" to the front of that.

What you need to actually open up maps to play throughout is the combination of in-match respawns, larger/more meaningful objectives (with things like sensor coverage, in-match repair/rearm, &c. which incentivize taking and holding objectives more directly than a ticket counter), and maps which provide more connectivity between the nascar track and everything on the periphery of it. When everyone starts bunched up and is heavily incentivized to stay bunched up, people are going to stay bunched up.

When you're playing a light, you have a free ticket to outflank every single match if there's not an unsubtle cheater with ESP on the enemy team since there's zero incentive for anyone to play the outer borders of any map aside from the hill and frozen lake on Alpine.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 31 March 2021 - 04:43 PM.

[PocketYoda]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 31 March 2021 - 09:42 AM, said:

than wait and let the enemy comes in your Range ,its the most fail from new Players to run in the Action and can not waiting or undestand Tactical movememnt and Awareness...Run to the Ridge and in the focus fire its bad ,run with a Group in a tunnel and not rush and stop in it by first enemy Fire =Dead of the group ,Many enemys can firing in Tunnel and only the first 2 can fire back and block each support Fire from all behind ...thats all the most errors.
When im Have a brawl Build ,so im wait by the assaults an flanks thats the action comes to me .
When im run with a Pistol in a Long Range Shooting area, its my Fail.The best By MWO is not a Specialist Build thats useless in 40% of the Situations ...the best is a allrounder.
-max Radar deprivation
-LRM warning= cover(like Trenches in Polar)
-never go in direct libne back , diagonal back sidewards from the direction of LRM Fire
AMS
-never stand to long by a place or walk in open Areas ,when the Enemys in LOS

That is obvious but only if your team works that way.. half these teams are at least in 4 and 5 are 75% lurms and large lasers boats because they are the most effective in those tiers... so obviously they wont move up or they are dead.. so they poke/hide the whole match.

HPG is one of the only good maps in the game that works well for both teams.

Edited by Samial, 31 March 2021 - 05:23 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

when the reds use NARC,and coordinated =yes , otherside the LRM Boats and Laserboots have maximal Reloading and Firespeed Problems, and IS LRM Boats helpless under 180m for fast Lights-best counter ACs and UACs ;-) and a good Team thats watch for spotters and UAVs

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 01 April 2021 - 04:09 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Some good thoughts in this video. Many of the pathing issues in Canyon were fixed with Hibernal. They just need back-ported. I'd actually like to see the map enlarged with another ring of ground. It could be high ground like it is now with some rocks for cover. Behind that, have an even taller wall to mark out of bounds. And add some cuts and tunnels into the walls to add more pathing navigation on the low ground so you can choose high or low and navigate across the map decently either way.

HPG could be interesting if you have 3 smaller towers enclosed in 3 equal arena like areas. And maybe have holes in the walls where people can pop out to snipe, but are exposed from the backside. The top of the walls can stay as long as there are obvious and accessible ramps to get up there. From above, the layout would look like a pie with 3 slices and there'd be an outside track.