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April Dev Vlog #1


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#561 DAEDALOS513

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 06:29 PM

Can we look into having a toggle option for 'overide' and bay doors? Where you can start a match with them on/open or off/closed.. these are some of the low hanging fruit

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 15 April 2021 - 06:36 PM.


#562 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 07:26 PM

View PostDAEDALOS513, on 15 April 2021 - 06:29 PM, said:

Can we look into having a toggle option for 'overide' and bay doors? Where you can start a match with them on/open or off/closed.. these are some of the low hanging fruit


We have a patch ready that removes the delay from bay-doors opening/firing via a pach May/June.

It's been tested to work so you won't need to open the doors anymore to negate the firing and they will still offer the damage reduction when they close (automatically).

No need for a button if you can just remove the roadblock entirely.

#563 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 08:13 PM

View PostReno Blade, on 15 April 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

ECM / AMS / Lock-on Weapons / Teamplay target sharing

ECM:
I think one major flaw in the equasion is the ECM hard-counter.
If you remember the Information Warfare PTS (long ago), they tested to change ECM to soft-counter:
- allows targeting/locking (remove hard-counter)
- keep longer lock time with ecm
- add longer targeting information time

AMS:
If AMS would have smaller optimal range, the efficiency of the bubble would be reduced closer to your own mech.
You could allow skill nodes to trade range for damage, if you prefered support over efficiency.

Lock-on:
Massive LRM is very annoying on the recieving end, especially if you are unable to see/shoot your enemy.
If IndirectFire would get more spread, the efficiency of LRMs would be less annoying or lethal unless both players can see each other.
- Target range/speed could have more depth, see InfoWarfare PTS (mentioned above)

ATM:
What do you think of a LINEAR damage curve of ATMs (e.g. from 3 dmg at 120m down to 1dmg at max range) ?
This would give more damage the closer you get without the 3 platteous, so you could get more out of the launcher than LRMs for more of the range (e.g. up to 500m).
Alternatively, AMS could have some other lower efficiency if missiles are targeting someone else.



TTK considerations
Some more options to balance TTK include:
- More Armor -> might feel save, but once armor is gone, you will be squishy (if structure is not increased also) and it might make weapons feel weaker
- More Structure -> increase survivability a bit, also increases importance of crits and disarming over destroying components. This also boosts IS-XL engine survivability a bit
- More GhostHeat / EnergyDraw -> currently disliked, because of spiky heat and slower battle pacing -> might be able to soften GhostHeat by spreading heat over 2 seconds. overall heat generation could be changed to gain heat over time instead of instantly (see MechWarrior 2), boating reduction
- Heatsink efficiency reduction -> slows down gameplay which is generally not very fun
- Difficulty of hitting your target -> increase of beam/burst/volley/spread, slow velocity, splash damage -> seems to be not liked, as everyone (including couldron) is going for reductions for more "fun".

I guess I'm alone, because I like slower battles, where hits are hard, but difficult to land, while also i dislike "boating".
So my image is to somehow have boats less efficient, so you need to have "backup weapons".

youn can doubled the Armor or make different things, nothing helps dump Teams to survive the first 2 Minutes when all run in the enemy Fire or Plays Nascar,or Close Combat in Maximal Zoom

#564 Eurystheus

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 10:46 PM

Is there a spread sheet somewhere we can have access to that lists all the weapons and their attributes?

#565 justcallme A S H

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 11:03 PM

https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html

#566 Vercors

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 06:12 AM

Radar:
I think it is strange (unreal) that the radar can detect allied mechs (also stealthy) in all situations, the detection of all mechs could be the same whether they are enemy or friendly. Making this change may have an impact on the nascaring problem, because seeing many allied mechs going in one direction encourages following them.
Stealth mechs, because they will be undetectable on all radars, should be able to change their status (detectable/undetectable) without delay, to avoid being mistaken for enemies when they want to join their teammate. Moreover, an option before the start of the match should warn the teammates which are the stealthy mechs to facilitate their recognition on the field.
This option should radically change the way we play, I understand that it can be annoying, but I think it can bring more fun to the game.

#567 Kodan Black

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 07:49 AM

I will again lobby that override should be a preference that you can default it to On or Off.

#568 Tarteso

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 10:17 AM

View PostReno Blade, on 15 April 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

ECM / AMS / Lock-on Weapons / Teamplay target sharing

ECM:
I think one major flaw in the equasion is the ECM hard-counter.
If you remember the Information Warfare PTS (long ago), they tested to change ECM to soft-counter:
- allows targeting/locking (remove hard-counter)
- keep longer lock time with ecm
- add longer targeting information time

AMS:
If AMS would have smaller optimal range, the efficiency of the bubble would be reduced closer to your own mech.
You could allow skill nodes to trade range for damage, if you prefered support over efficiency.

Lock-on:
Massive LRM is very annoying on the recieving end, especially if you are unable to see/shoot your enemy.
If IndirectFire would get more spread, the efficiency of LRMs would be less annoying or lethal unless both players can see each other.
- Target range/speed could have more depth, see InfoWarfare PTS (mentioned above)

ATM:
What do you think of a LINEAR damage curve of ATMs (e.g. from 3 dmg at 120m down to 1dmg at max range) ?
This would give more damage the closer you get without the 3 platteous, so you could get more out of the launcher than LRMs for more of the range (e.g. up to 500m).
Alternatively, AMS could have some other lower efficiency if missiles are targeting someone else.



TTK considerations
Some more options to balance TTK include:
- More Armor -> might feel save, but once armor is gone, you will be squishy (if structure is not increased also) and it might make weapons feel weaker
- More Structure -> increase survivability a bit, also increases importance of crits and disarming over destroying components. This also boosts IS-XL engine survivability a bit
- More GhostHeat / EnergyDraw -> currently disliked, because of spiky heat and slower battle pacing -> might be able to soften GhostHeat by spreading heat over 2 seconds. overall heat generation could be changed to gain heat over time instead of instantly (see MechWarrior 2), boating reduction
- Heatsink efficiency reduction -> slows down gameplay which is generally not very fun
- Difficulty of hitting your target -> increase of beam/burst/volley/spread, slow velocity, splash damage -> seems to be not liked, as everyone (including couldron) is going for reductions for more "fun".

I guess I'm alone, because I like slower battles, where hits are hard, but difficult to land, while also i dislike "boating".
So my image is to somehow have boats less efficient, so you need to have "backup weapons".


It would be very nice to see that ECM mechanics implemented, and BTW, extended to stealth armor missile lockons. I think that not being detected and flagged inmediately as enemy is more than enough.

About the TTK, IMO fast matches are very much related to how the game (QP) is played 99%: as you have to choose the mech before you know which map, most frequent choices are medium range or multi-role weapons as ERPPCs, which are better anyway within shorter ranges due to travel time. So, teams inmediately move close to each other and nascar even in maps like polar and others (no domination mode) where long range and thus long TTK matches would be possible.
Anyway, I wouldnt recommend your options to increase armor nor actions to decrease shoothing or hit rates, as they can make the game more frustrating

#569 katoult

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 11:50 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 15 April 2021 - 07:26 PM, said:

We have a patch ready that removes the delay from bay-doors opening/firing via a pach May/June.

It's been tested to work so you won't need to open the doors anymore to negate the firing and they will still offer the damage reduction when they close (automatically).

No need for a button if you can just remove the roadblock entirely.

Did anyone ever actually ask for that?
I mean outside those that just exploit weapon doors anyway by packing RL in there to get the damage reduction and are then too lazy to hit a single button after firing them.

Or those who have no idea about underdocumented features and are just annoyed at "the delay".

#570 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 12:06 PM

View Postkatoult, on 16 April 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

Did anyone ever actually ask for that?
I mean outside those that just exploit weapon doors anyway by packing RL in there to get the damage reduction and are then too lazy to hit a single button after firing them.

Or those who have no idea about underdocumented features and are just annoyed at "the delay".


It’s a great idea. Always bothered me running around with doors open or having to open them every time you fire. It’s only with missile doors too, other “doors” like KGC arms open when you fire.

#571 justcallme A S H

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 12:28 PM

Bays doors is a single XML value change thst brings a HUGE QoL improvement.

Especially when it already happens on KGC/Crab arms etc.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 16 April 2021 - 12:29 PM.


#572 katoult

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 01:13 PM

Sorry, not seeing the "HUGE QOL improvement".

It's a marginal function that only applies to a handful mechs with usability in certain weapon configurations and with a single mech as its primary use case (Dervish) due to very limited brawling application of other mechs with weapon doors (Archer may make a limited case). Other similar previous use cases were eliminated when PGI removed the weapon bay doors from these chassis (such as the Centurion).

From a bit looking around the issue came up exactly twice in public discourse, during Beta in 2013 (on Reddit) and again in 2017 (on Steam).

#573 justcallme A S H

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 01:21 PM

Just because you can't see an improvement doesn't mean it isn't there :)

Some mechs like a Kintaro or Dervish. When firing missiles the ones firing from doors at 0.5s delayed. That isn't fun or intuitive.
As we can fix that via XML easily - make them just like other doors in the game - why not? No reason not to do it.

New users don't understand missile bay doors so to help the New Player Experience is absolutely huge. Anything thst can be done easy/quickly is a big win. This is one of those things.

#574 katoult

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 03:41 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 April 2021 - 01:21 PM, said:

New users don't understand missile bay doors so to help the New Player Experience is absolutely huge.

Properly documenting and advertising damage reduction and weapon door delay would help. Because, frankly, the only place where it's "fully explained" with current values is a 2017 dated post on the forum by Chris Lowrey.

I'd rate "automated doors" as less of a boon to the New Player Experience, and more one towards enabling a few so far underused chassis. Thinking of the Hellspawn in particular.

#575 Dogstar

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 04:59 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 April 2021 - 12:28 PM, said:

Bays doors is a single XML value change thst brings a HUGE QoL improvement.

Especially when it already happens on KGC/Crab arms etc.


Absolutely agree, I can't stand seeing Catapults and Archers wandering around with their flaps in the wind like sailboats so this is definitely a solid improvement

#576 Lionheart2012

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 10:09 AM

View Postx Deathstrike x, on 15 April 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:


Just to give an example here for Lionheart2012:
https://thecauldron....3f4b30b4_TBT-7M
https://thecauldron...._658db2a0_SCR-A

Both mechs are "roughly" equal in terms of maximum DPS, speed hitpoints (including quirks) and such.
Still the Trebuchet wins the because it has the better sustained DPS and of course all 30 IS missiles will hit at the same time and the 45 clan missiles in streams.
Thus with a 25% cooldown quirk (as well as all the others) IS LRM boats defenitly are better than clan LRM boats.


That's pointing out the exception and not the rule. The massed boating offered by Clan technology clearly out paces the few, much lighter, highly quirked IS 'Mechs. It's why you never see a line of Trebuchets but rather Nova Cats, Sunspiders, Warhammers, and Supernovae.

View PostBrauer, on 15 April 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

No it does not. IS MPLs have been one of the top weapon systems in the game since 2019. IS MPLs defined the competitive and QP meta in 2019 and 2020 and many many many competitive matches were determined by which team's mpl wolfpack beat the other over this stretch. Saying that IS MPLs are not currently one of the best weapons in the game is an extraordinary claim given all the evidence, so if you want to make that case the burden of proof is very firmly on you.


Careful, your elitism is showing. "Many, many, many competitive matches." Show the data....

#577 DAEDALOS513

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 10:16 AM

View PostLionheart2012, on 17 April 2021 - 10:09 AM, said:


That's pointing out the exception and not the rule. The massed boating offered by Clan technology clearly out paces the few, much lighter, highly quirked IS 'Mechs. It's why you never see a line of Trebuchets but rather Nova Cats, Sunspiders, Warhammers, and Supernovae.



Careful, your elitism is showing. "Many, many, many competitive matches." Show the data....

I agree.. mp's may work in the comp scene where everything is preprogrammed.. ie. you know what you're facing as far as number of lights, med's, heavies, assaults.. you know the game mode... there are fewer enemy mechs to deal with.. you know the map beforehand.. bla bla bla.. but in the real world where you have to build so that you can do well in most situations.. mp's are a hard sell.

You rarely see them in qp.. and even faction. Their range and heat is too limitting. They might work well when used on certain mechs that can flee once they heat up and/or have broken hitboxes like the vulcan.. but most of the time, ML's are the better choice. Bottom line, mp's ain't op by far.. personally I would give them a few more meters range and a touch less heat.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 17 April 2021 - 10:30 AM.


#578 Lionheart2012

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 10:19 AM

View PostBows3r, on 14 April 2021 - 11:04 PM, said:


I would highly recommend watching MWO comp matches on the mwoleagues twitch channel, especially from teams like JGx and Div A teams in general, that will give you the most accurate representation of the meta. You will probably find that many of your misplaced 'assertions' about what the meta supposedly is are actually quite false.


I have.

View PostBows3r, on 14 April 2021 - 11:04 PM, said:

How is talking about nascar 'elitist'? Maybe newer or less experienced players don't know about it or understand it (or maybe they haven't even observed it yet). Ask any player who has some experience at all playing the game, many of them will actively talk about this very same supposedly 'elitist' phenomenon, because it's simply that common.


Talking down to the NASCAR phenomenon as a reason for avoiding a proper balance to the game suggests a detachment from an understanding in how the game is played by most people and thus how changes would benefit the most people. If it benefits the few, elite, like you, who play Comp, then by definition it is elitist.

#579 DAEDALOS513

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 10:21 AM

View PostLionheart2012, on 17 April 2021 - 10:19 AM, said:

I have.

Talking down to the NASCAR phenomenon as a reason for avoiding a proper balance to the game suggests a detachment from an understanding in how the game is played by most people and thus how changes would benefit the most people. If it benefits the few, elite, like you, who play Comp, then by definition it is elitist.

Exactly.. this is why compers should not be directing the game.. like most politicians, they are out of touch with reality; they have little interest about the game outside of comp. Hopefully they have an equal amount of non-comp players stirring their cauldron to balance things out..

Just like their view on how strong mp's are.. hardly..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 17 April 2021 - 10:24 AM.


#580 Lionheart2012

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Posted 17 April 2021 - 10:23 AM

View PostBrauer, on 14 April 2021 - 08:23 PM, said:

The formatting issues make this really hard to read. You might want to fix it as I know I'm not going to wade through that.


Copy and paste from a Google doc. fixed it.





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