140 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Oof, we're not doing volumetric then, oh well. Had hopes for a short time.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 03 April 2021 - 03:15 PM, said:

Oof, we're not doing volumetric then, oh well. Had hopes for a short time.

Eh, it's better than what we got from PGI.

Brauer, on 03 April 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

If a light mech was 10m tall and the average assault was 11-12m tall nobody would take lights because they'd be so easy to one-shot. They wouldn't even work as objective runners because it's not like you'd need more than one assault per cap to burn down any number of lights running to the points.

Lights are already relevant, I don't see why people would want to hand them a massive nerf by making them much larger (in fact some lights are already too big). IMO there are plenty of mechs that could use a rescale, and shrinking the biggest mechs can make a lot of sense, but making lights nearly the same size as other mechs is not a good idea.

My concern is really about how much. You don't have to make lights 10m tall while everyone else is between 10-11m. By all means, normalize the sizes.

But I don't want is that that the lights' survivability is more reliant on other players being bad, which the inevitable result of trying to streak them out of existence that makes Streaks -- and other homing weapons -- the bad guy. And once players get enough aim skill, they could just be nuked straight out of existence by a pair of heavy-gauss.

Either is WTF moment for both parties, to my opinion, kind of ruins the fun.

[PocketYoda]

Antares102, on 03 April 2021 - 02:22 AM, said:

Oh you lore nerds you would be the first to leave if this was a genuine TT rule copy game.
Because with perfect aim you would either have a TTK equal to CoD which is like 1 sec as soon as an enemy spots you or you would complain that no matter how well you aim half your weapons won't hit or randomly hit zones all over the place.

No i wouldn't because i play this game for fun, not as some meta esport crap. I wouldn't even care if mechs had fixed loadouts. Like they should.

https://www.dropbox....lanced.pdf?dl=0

The lights are too small but the rest look great.

Lockheed_, on 03 April 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

I think you are a bit over estimating peoples love for the BT universe here. I do not care about BT lore at all, neither does any of my buddies, we just want to shoot mechs and honestly if some other Mech game with a more up to date engine would come along we would probably all leave. MWO just covers the niche of a mech shooter pretty well.
I know some BT lore though, because I used to play the TT back in the 90s and let me tell you I am here despite the lore and the connection to BT.

I can totally see that, you people keep destroying the game you have no invested interest in.

Edited by Samial, 03 April 2021 - 04:53 PM.

[pattonesque]

Samial, on 03 April 2021 - 04:44 PM, said:

No i wouldn't because i play this game for fun, not as some meta esport crap. I wouldn't even care if mechs had fixed loadouts. Like they should.

https://www.dropbox....lanced.pdf?dl=0

The lights are too small but the rest look great.

I know lights are larger in the lore but, again, making lights larger in this game (with the exception of the minor increase to the Flea) is basically a death sentence for them. If you have alternate ideas for how to prevent this I'm all ears.

[FupDup]

pattonesque, on 03 April 2021 - 05:03 PM, said:

I know lights are larger in the lore but, again, making lights larger in this game (with the exception of the minor increase to the Flea) is basically a death sentence for them. If you have alternate ideas for how to prevent this I'm all ears.

To prevent their invalidation the only real choices available are some kind of anti-convergence mechanic (which would probably be hated by almost everyone and would be very resource-intensive to even develop) or just straight-up armor quirking them pretty hard.

The latter is a viable option but a rather boring one IMO because it starts to blur the lines between the different weight classes. Some outliers like the Urbie are good to have for variety's sake but I don't think that all lights should have to get the Urbie treatment.

Balancing the classes by different sizes is good because it creates more "organic" differences and trade-offs than just slapping more armor on everything and it also lets the big mechs feel the power fantasy of being gigantic (an Atlas seeing eye-to-eye with a light mech kind of kills the fantasy).

Edited by FupDup, 03 April 2021 - 05:16 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Lockheed_, on 03 April 2021 - 07:49 PM, said:

And yet until the march patch I kept buying stuff from the store and I am participating in this forum.
But i guess I am invested in this game in a way you don't seem to like.
With that being said I would be equally invested if this was Heavy Gear, Hawken, Earthsiege or whatever.

Yet your signature says differently.. And i for one would not be interested in any of those other games. I only play this because i'm crazy about Battletech.

I have zero interest in online meta.

pattonesque, on 03 April 2021 - 05:03 PM, said:

I know lights are larger in the lore but, again, making lights larger in this game (with the exception of the minor increase to the Flea) is basically a death sentence for them. If you have alternate ideas for how to prevent this I'm all ears.

I disagree i feel lights would still be hard to counter not because of their size but their speed is off the charts.. Even Assassins are stupid hard to kill and they are about the size a Commando should be.

Edited by Samial, 03 April 2021 - 08:09 PM.

[Meep Meep]

pattonesque, on 03 April 2021 - 02:09 PM, said:

funny you mention that, the rescale first draft is now publicly available:

https://www.dropbox....lanced.pdf?dl=0

Ah. Finally the jenner and cicada are not almost as big as a heavy. Dunno about some of the assaults but I agree that the anni was waaay too tall and needed a bit of a rescale.

[PocketYoda]

In the rescale i feel the nightstars arms need changes and same with the Marauder II Also the Marauder IIC arms.

[pattonesque]

Samial, on 03 April 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:

I disagree i feel lights would still be hard to counter not because of their size but their speed is off the charts.. Even Assassins are stupid hard to kill and they are about the size a Commando should be.

yeah but if you make them larger then their speed will not count for nearly as much. I'll point you again to the Firestarter, a fast light which is extraordinarily easy to kill because of how large it is. You keep insisting that increasing a light's size will not matter when we have proof that it does. It's already not terribly difficult for me to put significant alphas on even stealth Fleas with max engines, and I'm just OK. Making them the size you would like to make them means they'll be catching more fire from me, more fire from players worse than me, and way more fire from players better than me. I'll ask again: if you do that, what's your plan to make lights playable at all if you make them larger?

[VeeOt Dragon]

i love the lore myself. though i honestly have two ideas for scaling the mechs. one would be the one i have already mentioned, taking the lore sizes for mech and using the average as a baseline. or taking the cockpits and scaling them so that an average person fits how they are supposed to. though not sure how well the second would work given the models that PGI uses.

[MyriadDigits]

Samial, on 03 April 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:

I have zero interest in online meta.

Then everyone would appreciate if you would step out of discussions regarding online balance (aka, meta). MechWarrior 5 is the perfect title for people who want their first person lorefest without a care in the world for how lore driven decisions impact balance.

Samial, on 03 April 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:

I disagree i feel lights would still be hard to counter not because of their size but their speed is off the charts.. Even Assassins are stupid hard to kill and they are about the size a Commando should be.

Assassins also have substantially more armor and structure than a Commando does. I guarantee if those Assassins were running around with as many hit points as a Commando does they would die a whole heck of a lot faster. Size also has a massive impact on how much speed actually matters. For an exaggerated example, you could have something moving 175kph (~50m/s) but if the thing is 50m wide it'll hardly clear its own profile in an entire second, and would in fact look quite slow and lumbering considering its immense size.

So it once more begs asking how you'd expect to solve the unplayability of lights becoming entirely gigantic.

Edited by MyriadDigits, 03 April 2021 - 11:26 PM.

[TheArisen]

I like having the lore involved in the game but basically what needs to be understood is MWO is like the movie while TT/Lore/Novels are the books. Just like with a movie, a live action shooter requires some compromises to the lore to work. On top of that some of the light mechs are so tall in lore that even if the different sizes were averaged they would become so much bigger that they would be absolutely terrible.

Most 35t mechs are really struggling in large part because of their size and you want to make them bigger for lore's sake in spite of gameplay? Despite Battletech basically confirming the size difference?

After reading some more, I'll just reiterate this point.

The original creator of this IP helped develop Battletech which confirmed the size differences in MWO. That means he basically put his stamp on the sizes as they are now because if it was really an issue he wouldn't have allowed it in the game he developed. That basically means the "lore in spite of gameplay" crowd just don't have any actual footing. The mech's sizes have always been less than 100% solid anyway so it's just tremendously silly to make such a big deal out of mech sizes in MWO.

Edited by TheArisen, 04 April 2021 - 05:00 PM.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Samial, on 03 April 2021 - 04:44 PM, said:

I can totally see that, you people keep destroying the game you have no invested interest in.

I love this. Its one, if not, my favourite excuse dumb mechdads use to try counter people who are critical of the game from a competitive viewpoint. Regardless of someone's thoughts on the source material why would someone come to the forums and actively engage in the discussion to try help make the game better if they weren't invested in it? Do you need to have an extensive knowledge of muh lore to be truly invested in MWO?

What kind of dumb gatekeeping is that?

Quote

I only play this because i'm crazy about Battletech.

HBS Battletech, Mechwarrior 1-5, MechCommander 1-2, MechAssault 1-2, MegaMek. Go play your singleplayer game truer to lore then.

[DUMAR]

Can we fix the comically over sided Black Knight?

[Antares102]

DUMAR, on 04 April 2021 - 03:37 AM, said:

Can we fix the comically over sided Black Knight?

According to the size reduction proposal if would get 9% smaller.
https://www.dropbox....lanced.pdf?dl=0

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Samial, on 02 April 2021 - 08:56 PM, said:

It really does.

Normally I'd argue in your favor.

Instead I will simply say they should take the MercTech V2 rescale from MW5's merctech mod and use that.

[PocketYoda]

Monke-, on 04 April 2021 - 02:36 AM, said:

I love this. Its one, if not, my favourite excuse dumb mechdads use to try counter people who are critical of the game from a competitive viewpoint. Regardless of someone's thoughts on the source material why would someone come to the forums and actively engage in the discussion to try help make the game better if they weren't invested in it? Do you need to have an extensive knowledge of muh lore to be truly invested in MWO?

What kind of dumb gatekeeping is that?





HBS Battletech, Mechwarrior 1-5, MechCommander 1-2, MechAssault 1-2, MegaMek. Go play your singleplayer game truer to lore then.

I do.. just not MW5 as its on Epic store which i avoid.. Mechassault cannot be gotten these days.. I still play all the rest.

MWO just needs less meta and more fun..

Edited by Samial, 04 April 2021 - 07:05 AM.

[pattonesque]

Samial, on 04 April 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

I do.. just not MW5 as its on Epic store which i avoid.. Mechassault cannot be gotten these days.. I still play all the rest.

MWO just needs less meta and more fun..

This is a misunderstanding of what “meta” means. There will always be an optimal set of loadouts and tactics that the more competitive players will find and adopt. This is true in anything from Starcraft to Fall Guys. Right now the meta is IS MPLs, UAC5/10s, LB10s, and CERPPCs. The whole purpose of the Cauldron is to make more playstyles, chassis, and weapons relevant. Rescale is a significant part of this.

[Alexandros]

Streaks cooldown time raised? the only weapon that didnt hurt anyone to be like the way it is? CAULDRON/GULAG or whatever name you use now stay away from the streaks Geez.

[Brauer]

Samial, on 04 April 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

I do.. just not MW5 as its on Epic store which i avoid.. Mechassault cannot be gotten these days.. I still play all the rest.

MWO just needs less meta and more fun..

You are not going to get "less meta" in a pvp game. There's a natural arms race of sorts that takes place in a pvp game and as pattonesque said there will always be mechs, weapons, or tactis that are more effective than others and players will seek those out to give themselves a better shot at winning games, whether those players are hardcore competitive players or more casual players. The Cauldron patch seeks to increase the number of viable weapons and build archetypes, which will hopefully lead to more varied playstyles and experiences.

If you want to play a game without worry about the meta you are better off playing a pve game like MW5, although even then there's a meta whether you practice it or not.