137 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

The6thMessenger, on 06 April 2021 - 09:07 PM, said:

Skill tree is good enough. But direct quirks would be needed if it has to be relevant without skill tree. I mean if we have to master the mech just for a heavy ballistic build to be viable, it'll work but it will also suck until you get them.

Better than nothing I guess.

Scratch that... ammo quirks are directly applicable to mechs... no skill tree needed.

[Ch_R0me]

My opinion on this matter is simple:

Don't touch it.

I would rather to see the missing pieces of weaponry and equipment, like Machine Gun Arrays, Mech Mortars etc.

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 06 April 2021 - 10:19 PM, said:

Scratch that... ammo quirks are directly applicable to mechs... no skill tree needed.

NAISU

Not sure with actual values. But I think with an AC20 Ember, or AC20 Raven, there should be more ammo/ton if there's only torso hardpoints.

We should have a baseline build where we gauge how much ammo/ton to be added.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 06 April 2021 - 11:47 PM.

[Grus]

The 10 rule dosnt need to be changed.

[Lucian Nostra]

No this suggestion is bad, the math he uses is totally F'd up and ignores so much of what construction is.

Lets look at the base Urbie with it's STD 60.

In TT the engine is 1.5 tons and comes with 8 free weight HS you need to place externally. Pretty simple and the engine is ONLY 1.5 tons with all 10 heatsinks.

In MWO the engine is -2.5 tons and you need to buy 8 heatsinks for it coming to 5.5 tons. So your now going WHUT!? we're being taxed! No because in MWO the weight of the mechs gyro and cockpit are done as part of the engine as opposed to TT.

Gyro weight is rating/100 rounded up and a cockpit is 3 tons. So instead of putting that into the base mechs weight like TT did, MWO puts that tonnage into the engines hence why the STD 60 weighs -2.5s. 1.5 tons base, 1 ton gyro, 3 ton cockpit - 8 tons for heatsinks.

In actuality the engine ONLY weighs 1.5 tons in MWO just like it does in TT but PGI being PGI decided to factor the cockpit into engines and lumped the gyros in as well (ok that part makes sense to me)

Sub 250 engines aren't eating some sorta tax for having to bring external heat sinks and these mechs do not need free/ghost tonnage.

another example would be the STD 100, in TT it comes in at 3 tons with 6 free heatsinks, 1 ton of gyro, 3 tons of cockpit for 7 tons. in MWO it's a 1 ton engine because its base 3, 1 ton gyro 3 tons cockpit - 6 tons of heatsinks. 1 ton plus your 6 heatsinks is 7 tons.


TLDR - These mechs aren't being punished for having to get to 10 heatsinks, the game has taken the weight of those 1 ton sinks into effect and reduced the engine weights to compensate them. These mechs do not need free tonnage.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 07 April 2021 - 09:03 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 April 2021 - 08:59 AM, said:

TLDR - These mechs aren't being punished for having to get to 10 heatsinks, the game has taken the weight of those 1 ton sinks into effect and reduced the engine weights to compensate them. These mechs do not need free tonnage.

I think MOST folks understand the math now. The argument at this point is for or against the tyranny of being forced to have a minimum of 10 heat sinks, math be damned. The 250 rated engine comes with 10 heat sinks, as does the 60 rated engine, but folks want to sell back the required minimum heat sinks for more tonnage and/or space.

Honestly, while I'm against changing the heat sink rule, I would really love to see a 6 MPL flea blow itself up on the second shot...

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 07 April 2021 - 09:23 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 April 2021 - 09:20 AM, said:

I think MOST folks understand the math now. The argument at this point is for or against the tyranny of being forced to have a minimum of 10 heat sinks, math be damned. The 250 rated engine comes with 10 heat sinks, as does the 60 rated engine, but folks want to sell back the required minimum heat sinks for more tonnage and/or space.

Honestly, while I'm against changing the heat sink rule, I would really love to see a 6 MPL flea blow itself up on the second shot...

If people say they understand the math than still advocate for free tonnage than they really aren't grasping the math beyond the most basic level of looking at numbers.

If the urbie's STD 60 just weighed 5.5 tons (leaving the gyro and cockpit weights in) and slapped 8 free weight HS into your mech chassis we wouldn't even be having this conversation to start with. People wouldn't be saying "man it'd be awesome if those heatsinks actually weighed 8 tons than I could remove them so I could go into negative tonnage.."

But since PGI dropped the engine weights to accommodate the fact you need to put those heat sinks on now people feel like they are being punished seeing they are eating up 8 tons on their Urbie for those heatsinks and again, ignoring why that engine is weighted like it is.

Edit: think about it this weigh the cockpit and gyro are fixed at 4 tons on that STD 60 Urbie, the engine and heatsinks only weigh in at 1.5 tons. That's TEN heatsinks for 1.5 tons! Holy crap! what a weight savings!!!

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 07 April 2021 - 09:55 AM.

[Grus]

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 April 2021 - 09:20 AM, said:

I think MOST folks understand the math now. The argument at this point is for or against the tyranny of being forced to have a minimum of 10 heat sinks, math be damned. The 250 rated engine comes with 10 heat sinks, as does the 60 rated engine, but folks want to sell back the required minimum heat sinks for more tonnage and/or space.

Honestly, while I'm against changing the heat sink rule, I would really love to see a 6 MPL flea blow itself up on the second shot...

If you're gonna min/max, you need to understand the issues behind doing so.


Also, this opens the can on worms of "why can't we do this/that since they did this?". I'd rather not go down that road.

[Lucian Nostra]

Grus, on 07 April 2021 - 09:58 AM, said:

If you're gonna min/max, you need to understand the issues behind doing so.


Also, this opens the can on worms of "why can't we do this/that since they did this?". I'd rather not go down that road.

I mean im on board for fixed equipment being free tonnage on clan omnis, why should I be punished having to bring JJs on my Kitfoxes or heatsinks on my warhawks? I want free tonnage too..

oh SARCASM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 April 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

But since PGI dropped the engine weights to accommodate the fact you need to put those heat sinks on now people feel like they are being punished seeing they are eating up 8 tons on their Urbie for those heatsinks and again, ignoring why that engine is weighted like it is.

Yeah, I know PGI simplified things so that players didn't need to do so much math in the mech lab, but they created this problem by doing so. Oh, it's not just the engine that weighs this but the engine plus the gyro plus the cockpit plus the heat sinks? Why didn't you say so? Package deal, kids.

[Grus]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 April 2021 - 10:02 AM, said:

I mean im on board for fixed equipment being free tonnage on clan omnis, why should I be punished having to bring JJs on my Kitfoxes or heatsinks on my warhawks? I want free tonnage too..

oh SARCASM.

Sarcasm accnolaged*

Well thats the benefit of clan mechs. The draw backs are, well, many.

But again, min/max...

[Grus]

Kanajashi just needs to stick to his Bob Ross style of videos of him shooting things.. this idea is just DOA.

[The6thMessenger]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 April 2021 - 08:59 AM, said:

No this suggestion is bad, the math he uses is totally F'd up and ignores so much of what construction is.

Lets look at the base Urbie with it's STD 60.

In TT the engine is 1.5 tons and comes with 8 free weight HS you need to place externally. Pretty simple and the engine is ONLY 1.5 tons with all 10 heatsinks.

In MWO the engine is -2.5 tons and you need to buy 8 heatsinks for it coming to 5.5 tons. So your now going WHUT!? we're being taxed! No because in MWO the weight of the mechs gyro and cockpit are done as part of the engine as opposed to TT.

Lucian Nostra, on 07 April 2021 - 08:59 AM, said:

TLDR - These mechs aren't being punished for having to get to 10 heatsinks, the game has taken the weight of those 1 ton sinks into effect and reduced the engine weights to compensate them. These mechs do not need free tonnage.

MWO =/= TT, MWO treats external heatsinks separately. That is the reality that we have to contend to.

This is just algebra. If your sum is already 5.5 tons, as in:

5.5 tons = 1-ton gyro + 3-ton cockpit + 1.5 ton base-engine = 1-ton gyro + 3-ton cockpit + -2.5 ton base-engine + 8 heatsink

If you take away 4 ton worth heatsink, with the heat capacity and dissipation with it, then it's not free as in what do you think the 4-ton worth of heatsink was doing? Since PGI has established that external heatsinks are entities separate from the engine, it's basically just loaning tonnage with dissipation and capacity for collateral.

Engine becomes lighter yes, but it's not free tonnage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 April 2021 - 01:41 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Monke-, on 06 April 2021 - 12:05 AM, said:

I think you're over estimating how strong this would be.

Just a few examples of builds that would be possible:

LCT-PB or FLE-20 with 4x MPLas
Urbanmechs running a UAC/10, Gauss Rifle, or AC/20 with 3+ tons of ammo
PIR-1 HMG builds
LCT-1Vs could run MGs or LMGs alongside a LPLas or SNPPC
COM-2D builds wouldn't have to compromise so heavily between ammo capacity vs. alpha damage

Basically any 20 or 25t light and a fair chunk of 30t ones which are limited by hardpoint count or reliance on ammo would benefit massively from getting an extra 2-4 tons to spend on weapons. You'd basically have to never play <35t lights to not realize how starved for tonnage a lot of them are. Most of the ones that run hot already carry engines large enough to not require external heatsinks.

[dario03]

Alexander of Macedon, on 07 April 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

Just a few examples of builds that would be possible:

LCT-PB or FLE-20 with 4x MPLas
Urbanmechs running a UAC/10, Gauss Rifle, or AC/20 with 3+ tons of ammo
PIR-1 HMG builds
LCT-1Vs could run MGs or LMGs alongside a LPLas or SNPPC
COM-2D builds wouldn't have to compromise so heavily between ammo capacity vs. alpha damage

Basically any 20 or 25t light and a fair chunk of 30t ones which are limited by hardpoint count or reliance on ammo would benefit massively from getting an extra 2-4 tons to spend on weapons. You'd basically have to never play <35t lights to not realize how starved for tonnage a lot of them are. Most of the ones that run hot already carry engines large enough to not require external heatsinks.

Some of those don't even sound that great. Probably see more issues with mediums. If it could be done as a quirk like drops minimum required hs by x amount on just certain mechs it would probably be fine.

Edited by dario03, 07 April 2021 - 02:07 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Alexander of Macedon, on 07 April 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

Just a few examples of builds that would be possible:

LCT-PB or FLE-20 with 4x MPLas
Urbanmechs running a UAC/10, Gauss Rifle, or AC/20 with 3+ tons of ammo
PIR-1 HMG builds
LCT-1Vs could run MGs or LMGs alongside a LPLas or SNPPC
COM-2D builds wouldn't have to compromise so heavily between ammo capacity vs. alpha damage

Basically any 20 or 25t light and a fair chunk of 30t ones which are limited by hardpoint count or reliance on ammo would benefit massively from getting an extra 2-4 tons to spend on weapons. You'd basically have to never play <35t lights to not realize how starved for tonnage a lot of them are. Most of the ones that run hot already carry engines large enough to not require external heatsinks.

I don't think we should gimp the -30 tonners just for 35-tonners to be relevant. Maybe they should provide better advantage than just being bulky lights.

But yeah as Navid said, while I think it's a cool idea to make -30 tonners relevant in the heavy-ballistic role, it's a can of worms on the mediums.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 April 2021 - 02:07 PM.

[Lucian Nostra]

The6thMessenger, on 07 April 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

MWO =/= TT, MWO treats external heatsinks separately. That is the reality that we have to contend to.

This is just algebra. If your sum is already 5.5 tons, as in:

5.5 tons = 1-ton gyro + 3-ton cockpit + 1.5 ton base-engine = 1-ton gyro + 3-ton cockpit + -2.5 ton base-engine + 8 heatsink

If you take away 4 ton worth heatsink, with the heat capacity and dissipation with it, then it's not free as in what do you think the 4-ton worth of heatsink was doing? Since PGI has established that external heatsinks are entities separate from the engine, it's basically just loaning tonnage with dissipation and capacity for collateral.

Engine becomes lighter yes, but it's not free tonnage.

MWO engine weighs 1.5 tons, gyro and cockpit would ALWAYS be part of the tonnage, it's simply going yes I want a 31 ton mech for worse heat dissipation, hm no I want a 34 ton mech.. you know what why not a 40.5 ton Urbie with 2 HSs.

The tonnage has a drawback in your dissipation would go down but your making tonnage that doesn't actually exist in the first place.

Why not just make it a universal change than? all internal heatsinks can be removed, my Dual Gauss mechs don't need all those internal sinks I'd like 10 extra tons (realistically prolly 8 tons need SOME dissipation for them) on them for larger engines/armor/ammo/backup weaponry.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 07 April 2021 - 02:56 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 April 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

Why not just make it a universal change than? all internal heatsinks can be removed, my Dual Gauss mechs don't need all those internal sinks I'd like 10 extra tons (realistically prolly 8 tons need SOME dissipation for them) on them for larger engines/armor/ammo/backup weaponry.

because the only reason people think that there is any weight cost to the first 10 heat sinks at all is that PGI derped down the math in an effort not to confuse anyone. Every engine comes with 10 heat sinks, here are the real weights for standard engines:



To that you add 3 tons for the head components and 1 ton per 100 rating (rounded up) for the Gyro and there you have the MWO engine weight for every engine 250 or above. For the ones below 250, PGI subtracted the weight of the externally mounted heat sinks and made you buy them back. You don't actually buy them back, they're included with the engine, check the weight above.

There is no "extra weight". you never have less than 10, and you can't "sell them back." We're all arguing over a lazy game design choice made by someone who didn't quite understand the Lore.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 07 April 2021 - 03:17 PM.

[Nightbird]

ScrapIron Prime, on 07 April 2021 - 03:12 PM, said:

because the only reason people think that there is any weight cost to the first 10 heat sinks at all is that PGI derped down the math in an effort not to confuse anyone. Every engine comes with 10 heat sinks, here are the real weights for standard engines:



To that you add 3 tons for the head components and 1 ton per 100 rating (rounded up) for the Gyro and there you have the MWO engine weight for every engine 250 or above. For the ones below 250, PGI subtracted the weight of the externally mounted heat sinks and made you buy them back. You don't actually buy them back, they're included with the engine, check the weight above.

There is no "extra weight". you never have less than 10, and you can't "sell them back." We're all arguing over a lazy game design choice made by someone who didn't quite understand the Lore.

Table Top is not lore. It's a game based on the lore designed and simplified for pen and paper.

[Stonefalcon]

I completely agree with OP. Lets break the game so everyone can run dual gauss Urbies.