60 replies to this topic

[Alexander of Macedon]

RickySpanish, on 12 April 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

What tier is that alt in?

I already know where you're trying to go with this, but IIRC it's only up to 3 or 4 right now.

It doesn't matter. Player counts were low enough two years ago for me to regularly see players who were T4-5 in T1 matches and these days we're lucky if we have a thousand active players. I was seeing people I know for a fact are T1-2 when I came back despite being in T5 after that PSR reset a while back.

It's also a fact that T1 is meaningless. Most people who play at a """T1""" level aren't actually very good at the game, they just have two neurons to rub together when it comes to MWO. It's likewise not just that the median player is pretty bad but that there's a pretty low cap on how much impact personal skill can have. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I'm not what I'd consider a top-tier player (in the context of shooters generally), but in spite of that, playing off-meta mechs and builds I enjoy, and frequent drunk dropping, I'm still in the top 1-2% of the playerbase. The same is true for pretty much every forum warrior, content creator, and even a fair chunk of comp players.

There's just no room for really oppressive skill gaps the way there often is in other shooters. If you're playing something like ArmA, Rising Storm 2, and similar "where the **** did I get shot from" simulators, one or two good players can utterly control a server with 60-120 players. That's just inherently impossible in MWO for a range of reasons (among others: high TTK, no respawning, fairly strict limits on volume of fire and long-range accuracy, relatively low mobility). As a knock-on effect, that means that it's much easier for average players to punch up effectively. You don't have to have the reflexes of a teenager on coke and aim good enough to get called a scripter, you just have to use a coherent build and think a little about what you're doing. Or know a good firing position or two for each side of each map and use them well. Or run a powerful build and avoid going off alone to suicide. Or be good at timing poke shots and predicting enemy reactions to you. Or...

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 12 April 2021 - 08:46 PM.

[JP Josh]

cmndctrl, on 12 April 2021 - 05:55 PM, said:

CLAN ERPPC
CLAN PULSE L
CLAN HEAVY L
C & IS AUTOCANNONS (AC/2 & AC/5)
IS LRM

you're welcome

what about 3 or 5 rocket 20's and a ac20 to match for a med mech.

[RickySpanish]

Alexander of Macedon, on 12 April 2021 - 08:41 PM, said:

I already know where you're trying to go with this, but IIRC it's only up to 3 or 4 right now.

It doesn't matter. Player counts were low enough two years ago for me to regularly see players who were T4-5 in T1 matches and these days we're lucky if we have a thousand active players. I was seeing people I know for a fact are T1-2 when I came back despite being in T5 after that PSR reset a while back.

It's also a fact that T1 is meaningless. Most people who play at a """T1""" level aren't actually very good at the game, they just have two neurons to rub together when it comes to MWO. It's likewise not just that the median player is pretty bad but that there's a pretty low cap on how much impact personal skill can have. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I'm not what I'd consider a top-tier player (in the context of shooters generally), but in spite of that, playing off-meta mechs and builds I enjoy, and frequent drunk dropping, I'm still in the top 1-2% of the playerbase. The same is true for pretty much every forum warrior, content creator, and even a fair chunk of comp players.

There's just no room for really oppressive skill gaps the way there often is in other shooters. If you're playing something like ArmA, Rising Storm 2, and similar "where the **** did I get shot from" simulators, one or two good players can utterly control a server with 60-120 players. That's just inherently impossible in MWO for a range of reasons (among others: high TTK, no respawning, fairly strict limits on volume of fire and long-range accuracy, relatively low mobility). As a knock-on effect, that means that it's much easier for average players to punch up effectively. You don't have to have the reflexes of a teenager on coke and aim good enough to get called a scripter, you just have to use a coherent build and think a little about what you're doing. Or know a good firing position or two for each side of each map and use them well. Or run a powerful build and avoid going off alone to suicide. Or be good at timing poke shots and predicting enemy reactions to you. Or...

T1 is meaningless? Oh, please. Go look up Lazy Millennial. That's my alt, I don't play it anymore because I could get 6/7 kills a match without trying. Now look at this account - not even 1:1 w/l, both accounts played during prime-time EST. A T1 player in T3 or below can absolutely decimate the opposition, there's a massive difference in skill.

[Vlad Ward]

RickySpanish, on 13 April 2021 - 05:31 AM, said:

T1 is meaningless? Oh, please. Go look up Lazy Millennial. That's my alt, I don't play it anymore because I could get 6/7 kills a match without trying. Now look at this account - not even 1:1 w/l, both accounts played during prime-time EST. A T1 player in T3 or below can absolutely decimate the opposition, there's a massive difference in skill.

A T1 player is relatively much stronger than a T5 player.

A T1 player is absolutely very weak in general fps mechanics barring the top 0.5% or so.

These statements are not mutually exclusive. MWO is just a game with a very niche userbase that happens to be exceedingly hostile towards younger, fresher blood and more generally anyone who can click on heads.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 13 April 2021 - 05:55 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Vlad Ward, on 13 April 2021 - 05:54 AM, said:

A T1 player is relatively much stronger than a T5 player.

A T1 player is absolutely very weak in general fps mechanics barring the top 0.5% or so.

These statements are not mutually exclusive. MWO is just a game with a very niche userbase that happens to be exceedingly hostile towards younger, fresher blood and more generally anyone who can click on heads.

I see people write that a lot, that most MWO players are just pants by general gamer comparison. I don't think it's true, MWO is a fair bit more complex control and situational awareness wise than other FPS games. Back when my friends were playing, they also played high ranked Overwatch / CS, but couldn't hit the broad side of an Awesome. Just think of how many 'Mech sillouettes there are in game for instance, learning to quickly snap a shot off at their precise cockpit location ("clicking on heads") is fairly tricky compared to regular FPS games.

[Gagis]

RickySpanish, on 13 April 2021 - 06:07 AM, said:

I see people write that a lot, that most MWO players are just pants by general gamer comparison. I don't think it's true, MWO is a fair bit more complex control and situational awareness wise than other FPS games. Back when my friends were playing, they also played high ranked Overwatch / CS, but couldn't hit the broad side of an Awesome. Just think of how many 'Mech sillouettes there are in game for instance, learning to quickly snap a shot off at their precise cockpit location ("clicking on heads") is fairly tricky compared to regular FPS games.

MWO has a very high skill ceiling, yes.

But once players get good enough in MWO, they stop playing, since the game has no End Game. Therefore we only retain players weak enough they find some challenge in playing QP, and a small competitive scene whose end game is challenging each other in private matches.

The average skill level of players who are still active in Quick Play is very low. The good side of that is that it is very easy for a newbro to learn to play at a relatively high level very fast.

[Tarl Cabot]

Alexander of Macedon, on 12 April 2021 - 08:41 PM, said:

I already know where you're trying to go with this, but IIRC it's only up to 3 or 4 right now.

It doesn't matter. Player counts were low enough two years ago for me to regularly see players who were T4-5 in T1 matches and these days we're lucky if we have a thousand active players. I was seeing people I know for a fact are T1-2 when I came back despite being in T5 after that PSR reset a while back.

snip

Before the PSR reset, players who are now in Tier 4 and 5 had the ability to move up into Tier 1 through brute force by dropping into a ton of games, something Jarl's list could not show. One had to use the forums to see if a player had checked the box to show their tier and had posted at least once. One such player had been listed on Jarl's who was within the top 30 players with the most game played. Said player had reach Tier 1 after playing over 25k games with an overall average of 171 MS and a 0.83 W/L Ratio. At a time I had made a post back in July 2019, of the top 30 players with the most games played 10 were under 200 avg MS and several of them with Tiers shown were in Tier 1 or 2....

And remember, the original PSR was setup to move practically everyone out of tier 5 to towards Tier 1. What was funny is right before the PSR reset, PGI posted that graph reflecting the number of accounts which had dropped in the previous 3 months along tier lines, with no distinction of how many games had been played. And of those accounts which had dropped at least 1 game were shown as being abundant in Tier 5 than any other tier. That alone should have been a shocker but not in a good way, since taken in that view meant the lack of new player retention. Then they thought it best to drop EVERYONE, even Tier 5 players into Tier 3 with everyone else with the PSR reset... and to start Cadets into Tier 3... before they finally did a partial reset to move players, primarily cadets and starting said cadets in Tier 5. During that time though, how many potential new players were chased off because of PGI's folly?

Just a reminder, original PSR reset dropping everyone into Tier 3 happened at the end of June 2020 then the revised PSR reset in Dec 2020 had moved new players and inactive players to Tier 5. Thus there was approximately 6 months PGI allowed it to continue before making that final adjustment in Dec 2020.....

[PocketYoda]

LRMs 20 15 10 5
ATMs 12 9 6
CERPPC
CERML/ERML/ML
CERLL/LL

Seems to be the go to in tier 4 and 5....

[Vlad Ward]

RickySpanish, on 13 April 2021 - 06:07 AM, said:

I see people write that a lot, that most MWO players are just pants by general gamer comparison. I don't think it's true, MWO is a fair bit more complex control and situational awareness wise than other FPS games. Back when my friends were playing, they also played high ranked Overwatch / CS, but couldn't hit the broad side of an Awesome. Just think of how many 'Mech sillouettes there are in game for instance, learning to quickly snap a shot off at their precise cockpit location ("clicking on heads") is fairly tricky compared to regular FPS games.

Gagis, on 13 April 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

MWO has a very high skill ceiling, yes.

But once players get good enough in MWO, they stop playing, since the game has no End Game. Therefore we only retain players weak enough they find some challenge in playing QP, and a small competitive scene whose end game is challenging each other in private matches.

The average skill level of players who are still active in Quick Play is very low. The good side of that is that it is very easy for a newbro to learn to play at a relatively high level very fast.

^ This guy covered a portion of it. Population average skill has been dropping for years as retention is biased towards people with W/L = 1.0. Anyone who's any good hits capped Tier 1 and gets bored, causing weaker players to fill in the gap, hit capped Tier 1, and get bored. It's a feedback loop. Stale game balance for years didn't help matters.

Nothing about MWO's controls are mechanically complex. Probably the most "difficult" thing to deal with is the fact that everything above 40 tons moves like a brick and there are limited ways in which human input can mitigate a bad situation after all the agility nerfs. Before you say "But Positioning!": All games have macro. MWO having macro is not novel or extraordinary. MWO puts more emphasis on macro but that's largely because the micro game is so lacking.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 13 April 2021 - 09:27 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Alexander of Macedon, on 12 April 2021 - 01:53 PM, said:

It literally doesn't matter what you run as long as you're marginally competent.

This is the true quick play meta. It's not the mech you pilot its the pilot in the mech.

This build would be quickly tossed out of a faction drop deck and for good reason.

But with a good pilot running it in the chaos of quick play and the right map? Heh..

[Sjorpha]

RickySpanish, on 13 April 2021 - 06:07 AM, said:

I see people write that a lot, that most MWO players are just pants by general gamer comparison. I don't think it's true, MWO is a fair bit more complex control and situational awareness wise than other FPS games. Back when my friends were playing, they also played high ranked Overwatch / CS, but couldn't hit the broad side of an Awesome. Just think of how many 'Mech sillouettes there are in game for instance, learning to quickly snap a shot off at their precise cockpit location ("clicking on heads") is fairly tricky compared to regular FPS games.

I agree with this.

Played lots of games and as far as I can see it's the same mix of potatoes and good players everywhere. I haven't seen any evidence that MWO is unusually low skill compared to other games. I think it's just a meme going around that sounds cool and cynic so people want to think it's true.

Of course games with larger player bases drives the competitive level up through harder competition for the top position, whereas in small pop games like MWO there are relatively few people competing at the top. So if anything is a bit lower in MWO it should be the competitive scene, through no fault of their own but because there simply isn't enough high end tournaments and high stakes to drive it as far as it otherwise would.

[RickySpanish]

Sjorpha, on 13 April 2021 - 01:24 PM, said:

I agree with this.

Played lots of games and as far as I can see it's the same mix of potatoes and good players everywhere. I haven't seen any evidence that MWO is unusually low skill compared to other games. I think it's just a meme going around that sounds cool and cynic so people want to think it's true.

Of course games with larger player bases drives the competitive level up through harder competition for the top position, whereas in small pop games like MWO there are relatively few people competing at the top. So if anything is a bit lower in MWO it should be the competitive scene, through no fault of their own but because there simply isn't enough high end tournaments and high stakes to drive it as far as it otherwise would.

Yep the community is smaller, but the skill of the players is compareable to any other game. The dynamics don't change a great deal. Top players will rise up the ranks in any game and quit out of boredom. The only reason mechwarrior's players are "so bad" is because the game has been around long enough for the good players to sometimes forget how much there is to learn. My brother started playing recently, and he's a pretty decent fps gamer. He's asked me all sorts of questions about game mechanics and loadouts and map positioning that we just take for granted now.

[meteorol]

RickySpanish, on 13 April 2021 - 06:07 AM, said:

I don't think it's true, MWO is a fair bit more complex control and situational awareness wise than other FPS games.

It really isn't.The major difference between MWO and other FPS games is that MWO, due to its glacial speed of gameplay compared to other games, gives you way more time to realize you ****** up before you die because you didn't pay attention to what is going on. This seems to drive a narrative that MWO requries "more" situational awareness than other games, which simply isn't the case.

Lack of situational awareness will literally get you killed in any single FPS game out there. The major difference is that in other FPS games, it will kill you in 0.3 seconds, while MWO gives you more time to realize what is going on before you die.

Gagis, on 13 April 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

MWO has a very high skill ceiling, yes.

No, it hasn't.

Edited by meteorol, 13 April 2021 - 09:24 PM.

[RickySpanish]

meteorol, on 13 April 2021 - 09:22 PM, said:

It really isn't.The major difference between MWO and other FPS games is that MWO, due to its glacial speed of gameplay compared to other games, gives you way more time to realize you ****** up before you die because you didn't pay attention to what is going on. This seems to drive a narrative that MWO requries "more" situational awareness than other games, which simply isn't the case.

Lack of situational awareness will literally get you killed in any single FPS game out there. The major difference is that in other FPS games, it will kill you in 0.3 seconds, while MWO gives you more time to realize what is going on before you die.



No, it hasn't.

The disconnection between legs and torso makes control more complex, the different mech shapes and weapon placement makes situational awareness and positioning more complex and important. Depending on what 'Mech you are in and what 'Mech your opponent(s) is/are in, will dictate good positions to engage from. Other FPS games don't tend to have this, as the player models are largely the same basic shape. There's class/build/weapon dynamics that dictate positioning, and Mechwarrior is a little lacking in team synergy with respect to combining the effects of different attacks, but it makes up for that with the sheer complexity of the mechlab. Furthermore, 'Mechs can have parts of themselves disabled and depending on build, have various kill conditions. How can you argue that's not more complex than most other shooters?

Edited by RickySpanish, 14 April 2021 - 05:28 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Bruh. If you're comparing this to CS:GO, players of that game literally memorize spray patterns to compensate for recoil while firing.

All games have macro. Loadouts are important but plenty of games have loadouts. MWO's Mechlab may have more options on the surface than other games, but when 95% of all possible Mechlab combinations are complete and utter dog-doodie it doesn't matter in practice.

MWO throws away the micro game and markets itself as "for thinking men." Think about that for a second. It's a marketing gimmick explicitly designed to differentiate MWO players from the "non-thinking men" who play other video games. You know, like millennials? Zoomers? eSportsers? People who regularly make decisions and perform actions in literal fractions of a second?

The target audience of MWO are Gen X and Boomers. It's not hard and the population isn't that good at video games.

Edit: That's not anything anyone should be ashamed of, either. How good someone is at video games has nothing to do with their self worth or value as human beings.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 14 April 2021 - 09:47 AM.

[meteorol]

RickySpanish, on 14 April 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

Depending on what 'Mech you are in and what 'Mech your opponent(s) is/are in, will dictate good positions to engage from.

You mean just like you wouldn't engage a sniper in an open field with a shotgun in any FPS, ever?

RickySpanish, on 14 April 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

There's class/build/weapon dynamics that dictate positioning

You mean like in pretty much any FPS out there? Optimum weapon ranges for different weapons and all kinds of utility items/perks/skills are part of pretty much any current FPS.

Mechlab and the different hitzones/kill conditions add a certain layer of complexity to the game, which adds to its skill floor, but it's hardly rocket science and there are plenty of videos/guides on it.

MWO is not a massively complex game. It's an arena shooter with incredibly slow paced combat, that adds some simulation aspects (like mechlab, heat management etc.) which are, however, not overly complicated. It's certainly not complex enough to justify how bad people are at playing it.

Edited by meteorol, 14 April 2021 - 10:48 AM.

[RickySpanish]

meteorol, on 14 April 2021 - 10:47 AM, said:

You mean just like you wouldn't engage a sniper in an open field with a shotgun in any FPS, ever?



You mean like in pretty much any FPS out there? Optimum weapon ranges for different weapons and all kinds of utility items/perks/skills are part of pretty much any current FPS.

Mechlab and the different hitzones/kill conditions add a certain layer of complexity to the game, which adds to its skill floor, but it's hardly rocket science and there are plenty of videos/guides on it.

MWO is not a massively complex game. It's an arena shooter with incredibly slow paced combat, that adds some simulation aspects (like mechlab, heat management etc.) which are, however, not overly complicated. It's certainly not complex enough to justify how bad people are at playing it.

Your 'Mech geometry dictates *where* you can engage from, for instance. Weapon positioning on your 'Mech is important with respect to convergence, how much you can expose etc. Other games don't usually have this.

As for mechlab, perhaps you can say it's not overly complex with a straight face, but looking at the sheer number of just viable builds on Grimmechs, nobody would believe you.

[RickySpanish]

Vlad Ward, on 14 April 2021 - 09:39 AM, said:

Bruh. If you're comparing this to CS:GO, players of that game literally memorize spray patterns to compensate for recoil while firing.

All games have macro. Loadouts are important but plenty of games have loadouts. MWO's Mechlab may have more options on the surface than other games, but when 95% of all possible Mechlab combinations are complete and utter dog-doodie it doesn't matter in practice.

MWO throws away the micro game and markets itself as "for thinking men." Think about that for a second. It's a marketing gimmick explicitly designed to differentiate MWO players from the "non-thinking men" who play other video games. You know, like millennials? Zoomers? eSportsers? People who regularly make decisions and perform actions in literal fractions of a second?

The target audience of MWO are Gen X and Boomers. It's not hard and the population isn't that good at video games.

Edit: That's not anything anyone should be ashamed of, either. How good someone is at video games has nothing to do with their self worth or value as human beings.

Look at Grimmechs for a large list of viable builds. CS:Go and the like are popular for the same reason the Sun newspaper is popular in England - it's targetted at a demographic with a 13 year old reading age. It's simple by design.

[JP Josh]

cmndctrl, on 12 April 2021 - 10:23 PM, said:

are you being sarcastic

nope im not my fav cent only has 3 missile and 1 ballistic hardpoint.

[Vlad Ward]

RickySpanish, on 14 April 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:

Look at Grimmechs for a large list of viable builds. CS:Go and the like are popular for the same reason the Sun newspaper is popular in England - it's targetted at a demographic with a 13 year old reading age. It's simple by design.

You know what all those viable builds have in common? You stick to 1-2, at most 3 complimentary weapon types per build. It's almost like, gasp, Primary/Secondary weapons in literally every other fps.

No one's running around with 2 small lasers, an SRM4, a RAC/2, and a light gauss on the same Mech. Just because you can slap the same weapon config on a few dozen different chassis doesn't mean MWO's Mechlab is varied or complex.