148 replies to this topic

[Elaxter]

How come there seems to be a clear bias towards Clan tech? I can put a 1-ton heavy medium laser for 10 damage on a clan mech. The trade off? Heat I guess? Meanwhile I have to spend 7 tons for the same damage output (a large pulse laser). That's 7x more weight.

I think the worst offender is the c-light probe. You're telling me that a clanner can just get a BAP for half a ton and one slot while I have to spend 3x as much weight and 2x the slots? Smells like BS for sure.

Am I wrong? Is there a fatal flaw that I'm missing that gives IS a clear advantage over Clan?

[Nightbird]

People that only play IS think Clan is OP. People that only play Clan think IS is OP. People that play both thinks both sides are balanced. You decide who is right.

[Elaxter]

Nightbird, on 10 November 2021 - 11:06 AM, said:

People that only play IS think Clan is OP. People that only play Clan think IS is OP. People that play both thinks both sides are balanced. You decide who is right.

Okay. What do Clan players say when talking about IS being OP?

[dario03]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 11:08 AM, said:

Okay. What do Clan players say when talking about IS being OP?

Depends on the mech, usually something like quirks or mobility. Or per weapon something like lrm burst instead of duration, or before changes this year mpl. Also before changes this year could point out the amount of IS mechs used in mwowc for 2019/2020.

[pbiggz]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 11:08 AM, said:

Okay. What do Clan players say when talking about IS being OP?

RACs. MRMs. Stealth Armour. Durability Quirks.

Take your pick. The clans have a narrower selection of tonnage efficient multitaskers, the IS has a wider selection of more targetted weapons.

By and large there isn't really anything that stands out as an overperformer, so if you think the clans are OP, i'm afraid that's on you. Figure it out.

[Andrewlik]

dario03, on 10 November 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

Depends on the mech, usually something like quirks or mobility. Or per weapon something like lrm burst instead of duration, or before changes this year mpl. Also before changes this year could point out the amount of IS mechs used in mwowc for 2019/2020.

I do feel that the Timberwolf is a bit overtuned as of late, the 6 er med 2 lpulse build with ECM feels a bit too mobile or a bit too cool for the firepower + ecm package. Otherwise I feel Clan does a few narrow things better, but IS builds have more variety

[pbiggz]

Andrewlik, on 10 November 2021 - 11:40 AM, said:

I do feel that the Timberwolf is a bit overtuned as of late, the 6 er med 2 lpulse build with ECM feels a bit too mobile or a bit too cool for the firepower + ecm package. Otherwise I feel Clan does a few narrow things better, but IS builds have more variety

The timby has been fairly meh for a long time. Nothing wrong with it being stronk. Mechs should be stronk.

[dario03]

Andrewlik, on 10 November 2021 - 11:40 AM, said:

I do feel that the Timberwolf is a bit overtuned as of late, the 6 er med 2 lpulse build with ECM feels a bit too mobile or a bit too cool for the firepower + ecm package. Otherwise I feel Clan does a few narrow things better, but IS builds have more variety

It can cool down very fast since builds like that can run a lot of cdhs. But is that an issue on that mech? A lot of the weapons aren't super high. And you can lose components fairly easily especially if someone else shots you during the burn duration of your shot, and also especially if you take the high mounted (-A) left torso.

[Steve Pryde]

You should not only compare tonnage and dmg between weapons. IS lpls are imo one of the best trade weapons in medium ranges. Extremly short duration and cooldown. Heavy lasers are good frontload burst dmg weapons but against a lpl boat u will lose every fight.

Clan light active probe has way less sensor range so you're trading tonnage vs effectiveness.

[Elaxter]

pbiggz, on 10 November 2021 - 11:37 AM, said:

RACs. MRMs. Stealth Armour. Durability Quirks.

Take your pick. The clans have a narrower selection of tonnage efficient multitaskers, the IS has a wider selection of more targetted weapons.

By and large there isn't really anything that stands out as an overperformer, so if you think the clans are OP, i'm afraid that's on you. Figure it out.

Explain the extremely fast lock times? It seems to me that clan mechs get locks faster and more consistently. Nearly instant. Weapons do more damage on the whole. Heat's a nonissue since I have to build hot to even compete anyway. Give me plain examples and spare the vagaries.

Steve Pryde, on 10 November 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

Clan light active probe has way less sensor range so you're trading tonnage vs effectiveness.

Yeah I realize the light active probe has less effectiveness, but it's not even an option for IS. I would like that option for some of my IS light mechs, but it's not available. I would like to have 8 machine guns too, but that's not an option either.

Posts are saying that IS has more variety but I fail to see it.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 10:52 AM, said:

Am I wrong? Is there a fatal flaw that I'm missing that gives IS a clear advantage over Clan?

The general consensus between Clan tech vs IS tech is that Clan tech does more damage, more range, has more heat as a trade off, and is generally more fragile with a few exceptions on certain mechs. IS tech runs cooler, does less damage, less range, has less heat build up but are generally more tanky with more quirks as compensation.

I don't think many would disagree that most IS mechs are generally build around mid range brawling while Clans use their range to determine engagements. Of course there are exceptions for dedicated long range/sniper platforms and you could theoretically push certain mech builds outside of their role. Some Clan mechs can be tanky simply due to their geometry/hitboxes and while some IS mechs can be damage monsters. There are so many factors and variables but that is at least I believe the generalization of how people view both tech trees.

This is someone who doesn't strictly play faction specific mechs, because if you look at one side from only one pov then you are going to build strong biases. I feel that the balance is pretty fair considering as someone who plays both tech trees.

[Captain Caveman DE]

short,sweet and simple: try it yourself.
best to learn from own experience, don't listen to any of us that tell you stuff.


if clan-tech is that OP, just use that for now; wait till some ISmech hands you your behind, and maybe you'll learn sth from that ;-)

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 10 November 2021 - 12:42 PM.

[martian]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Give me plain examples and spare the vagaries.

As you wish.

Check this thread, please: Magnificent Hellspawn



Note that the Hellspawn is a low-end medium Inner Sphere BattleMech ...

PGI gave it away a week ago, so I would guess you have it too.

[Elaxter]

Captain Caveman DE, on 10 November 2021 - 12:40 PM, said:

short,sweet and simple: try it yourself.
best to learn from own experience, don't listen to any of us that tell you stuff.


if clan-tech is that OP, just use that for now; wait till some ISmech hands you your behind, and maybe you'll learn sth from that ;-)

That seems like a cop-out. If you can't answer, don't say anything. I'm asking straight questions.

[pbiggz]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Explain the extremely fast lock times? It seems to me that clan mechs get locks faster and more consistently. Nearly instant.

Lock behaviour is not based on your weapon's tech base. Check to see if you're getting ECMed and you don't know it. If you're trying to lock a stealth mech, you're probably gonna have a hard time. This has nothing to do with your tech base.

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Weapons do more damage on the whole. Heat's a nonissue since I have to build hot to even compete anyway. Give me plain examples and spare the vagaries.

Heat is an issue. So is range. So is cool down. So is burn time. Your example of the large pulse vs heavy medium? You compared them based on tonnage and damage alone.

The heavy medium laser has an optimal range of 270 meters, a burn time of 1.25 seconds, and a cooldown of 4.2 seconds. It generates 8 heat and does 10 damage. 1.8 dps.
The large pulse laser has an optimal range of 400 meters, a 0.75 second burn time, and a 3 second cooldown. 2.9 dps.

By leaving out cooldown, range, burn time, you've painted a picture almost deliberately meant to give the impression of tech imbalance. This is either ignorance (which can be forgiven) or its a bad faith argument (which should be exposed).

In addition to that, heat is absolutely not a non-issue. You can build cool mechs that still compete, and if you think redlining after one alpha is "competitive" then there's alot you need to brush up on. Some competitive mech build are hotter because they rely on the pilot having trigger discipline (which pugs tend not to).

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Posts are saying that IS has more variety but I fail to see it.

Clan PPC weapons:

Clan ER PPC

Inner Sphere PPC weapons:

PPC
Light PPC
ER PPC
Snub nosed PPC
Heavy PPC

Clan Gauss

Clan Gauss Rifle

Inner Sphere Gauss

Gauss Rifle
Light Gauss Rifle
Heavy Gauss Rifle

Clan Armour:

Standard Armour
Ferro Fiberous

Inner Sphere Armour:

Standard Armour
Ferro Fiberous
Light Ferro
Stealth

I could go on, but I think I've made the point. If you can't see the variety, its because you chose not to look.

Edited by pbiggz, 10 November 2021 - 12:57 PM.

[Pika]

Generalising to the majority of 'mechs per side here but here goes.

IS 'Mechs tend to be tougher, cooler and have a wider range of weapons to pick from in any given pool. Yes, an Awesome is almost certainly bristling with PPCs, but depending on what kind will determine how you fight it. They can change their engines and can remove XL engines completely, making them exceptionally hard to kill by comparison.

Clan Mechs tend to have more range and a slither more damage at the cost of heat and refire\burn times (Or both.) Almost all Clan 'Mechs have fixed equipment when it comes to engine sizes and certain equipment depending on the chassis. However Clan 'Mechs regain some versatility with Omnipods. A Timberwolf could be any build at all.

Another trade off is Clan 'mechs are squishy. Like absurdly so. The Timberwolf is a bit of a joke compared to what it used to be and if you put missiles on those shoulders you may as well just fall over dead at the start because you ARE losing both side Torsos. Like, if you see a timby, don't even shoot his CT, just alpha both his shoulders and down it'll go.

[D A T A]

I own 720 mechs, i play since 2013 and i can tell you that for sure clan is not OP right now: i find the 2 factions very balanced at the moment

Inner sphere has the following advantages that balance the disadvantages

1) better duration skill tree nodes
2) better heat gen skill tree nodes
3) better cooldown skill tree nodes
4) dakka weapons having less projectiles, but same damage per volley = more accurancy
5) IS uac weapons have more powerful jam chance and jam duration values: they jam less and once they jam they unjam faster
6) IS lasers have better damage per heat values, meaning that they consume your heat bar in a more efficient way, dealing more damage per heat emitted
7) IS lasers have better cooldown values, meaning that they shoot faster
8) IS lasers have shorter duration, means that they focus their damage in a shorter window of time, so they are easier to use
9) IS erppcs ahve faster projectile speed, means that its easier to hit your targets
10) IS LRMs fly in packs rather than in stream, means that they are stronger vs AMS, and overall better base stats
11) IS srms and streaks do more damage, srms spread less, LBX spread less
12) IS gauss has faster cooldown and more ammo per ton
13) IS has access to a whole lot of combos that clan does not have, like Heavy ppcs, lightgauss+erppc combos, MRM, snub noses, lightppcs....
14) IS has access to more permissive ghost heat values: cerll, lpl, HLL are capped at max 2 no ghost, while IS LL is capped at max 4 no ghost, and this is just an example

15) and on top of that usually Inner sphere chassis have A LOT more quirks than clan ones, meaning that it is the mech itself that buffs it's own weapons, plus they tend to have better hitboxes and more generous defensive quirks

Clans on the other hand have other advantages, i listed -some- of the IS ones only because you asked about that

Edited by D A T A, 10 November 2021 - 01:49 PM.

[Nightbird]

D A T A, on 10 November 2021 - 01:34 PM, said:

I own 720 mechs, i play since 2013 and i can tell you that for sure clan is not OP right now: i find the 2 factions very balanced at the moment

Inner sphere has the following advantages that balance the disadvantages

1) better duration skill tree nodes
2) better heat gen skill tree nodes
3) better cooldown skill tree nodes
4) dakka weapons having less projectiles, but same damage per volley = more accurancy
5) IS uac weapons have more powerful jam chance and jam duration values: they jam less and once they jam they unjam faster
6) IS lasers have better damage per heat values, meaning that they consume your heat bar in a more efficient way, dealing more damage per heat emitted
7) IS lasers have better cooldown values, meaning that they shoot faster
8) IS lasers have shorter duration, means that they focus their damage in a shorter window of time, so they are easier to use
9) IS erppcs ahve faster projectile speed, means that its easier to hit your targets
10) IS LRMs fly in packs rather than in stream, means that they are stronger vs AMS, and overall better base stats
11) IS srms and streaks do more damage
12) IS gauss has faster cooldown and more ammo per ton
13) IS has access to a whole lot of combos that clan does not have, like Heavy ppcs, lightgauss+erppc combos, MRM, snub noses, lightppcs....

14) and on top of that usually Inner sphere chassis have A LOT more quirks than clan ones, meaning that it is the mech itself that buffs it's own weapons

Careful, you'll summon Clanners Complainers with that list lol....

[pattonesque]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 10:52 AM, said:

How come there seems to be a clear bias towards Clan tech? I can put a 1-ton heavy medium laser for 10 damage on a clan mech. The trade off? Heat I guess? Meanwhile I have to spend 7 tons for the same damage output (a large pulse laser). That's 7x more weight.

I think the worst offender is the c-light probe. You're telling me that a clanner can just get a BAP for half a ton and one slot while I have to spend 3x as much weight and 2x the slots? Smells like BS for sure.

Am I wrong? Is there a fatal flaw that I'm missing that gives IS a clear advantage over Clan?

an important consideration here that you're not considering is duration. ISLPLs have a duration of .75 seconds. Clan HMLs have it at 1.25 seconds. they have more difficulty landing all their damage on target

[LordNothing]

spheroids have access to urbies, therefore is op.