148 replies to this topic

[Mochyn Pupur]

Nesutizale, on 11 November 2021 - 03:06 AM, said:

Mix tech isn't the answere as everyone will simply take the best of both sides and run with it. That isn't balanceing that is just lazy. Balanceing around heat, durations, reloadtimes, etc. is where the balance should take place.
IS could be made to be DPS types while Clans are the hard hitting ones but if you miss you are screwed.

I think there are more ways to do a balance without watering down the gameplay by giveing out everything to everyone.

Sorry, I should have been clearer (or you may have considered the intent a touch more); by mixed tech, I meant Clan one side and IS the other . . . . . .not mixed tech on both sides.

Edited by PeppaPig, 11 November 2021 - 03:09 AM.

[caravann]

Rock, paper, scissor.

Most is to make a role for each side.

IS used the group of 4 , trebuchet as the 4th member as example is made for the rule of 4

In which each mech was very polarized to a specific role. 1x LRM Archer, 1x AC Jeager, 1x scout, 1x support

Clan = 4 jack of everything, with every single weapon attached to it. There you have 4 LRM/Direct fire, support, scout.

Clan is mostly military thinking and clan is mostly star league thinking. Then we have salvaged clan mech used by the inner sphere warriors using " The rule of 4"

Cargo ships could take as many it could fit based on size and tonnage. The inner sphere was stuck into thinking the rule of 4 that they always send every single squad in the rule of 4. This wasn't always the case but it is part of the history behind the trebuchet.

[w0qj]

It's much easier to make meme builds on Clan OmniMechs, perhaps that's where the idea of Clan OP comes from.

For example, our Team just had a discussion just today:

What a difference between Clan vs IS !!

35ton Adder (MWO circa 2014) goes at 97kph, can equip LBX20 in its arm, albeit with no lower arm actuator & no hand actuator.

Inner Sphere: No IS mech can equip LBX20 in its arms!! Not even Annihilator, King Crab, etc. IS mechs can only LBX20 in its LT/RT, and are forced to use the much heavier Standard Engine. The lightest mech in practice is the 50ton Hunchback HBK-4G that can equip LBX20 in its RT, goes at almost 65kph.

Also for Inner Sphere, large calibre AC20/UAC20 autocanons mounted on arms was a Big Deal back then.

50ton Centurion (MWO circa 2012) could fit AC20 in its arm, typically travels under 80kph! Wow!

30ton UrbanMech (MWO circa 2015) could fit AC20 in its arm!! Wow!

30ton Osiris (MWO circa 2017) could fit AC20 in its arm!! Wow.

Adder (MWO circa 2014): 35ton Clan goes at 97kph, can equip LBX20 in its arm, albeit with no lower arm actuator & no hand actuator. Needless to say, this same 35ton Adder can also equip AC20, and goes much faster than its IS counterpart!

But the BT tabletop is very well balanced, with counters to everything, which is the beauty of BT

Edited by w0qj, 11 November 2021 - 03:39 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 12:19 AM, said:

Weapons who are shot before the bar reaches zero will always have some ghost heating, it is also important to know how much heat spiking you'll cause as it can fry the mech.

A single mech has capacity limit. Clan do not use those roles of IS using a single mech to carry all LRM,

Whenever you want to use SRM6 or MRM10 is up to you. It is only range differences, MRM is better because of the ranges and stacking. There's no reason why not to use MRM, why use SRM, a thing clan has access.

Information changes with time and interface and own experience or bias.

Sorry but everything there you have posted is completely incorrect.

If you don't understand the mechanics, and it is clear you don't as I pointed out, please don't comment on them and continue mislead users. It helps no one.

[Moldur]

Omni mechs are easier to build out due to locked engine. Because of this, you tend to see less terrible omnimech builds. The open-endedness of non omni mechs, and especially with the greater engine choice in IS is a lot of room to waste 5 million c-bills putting the wrong engine or something into it, which will ruin the entire baseline for the rest of the configuration, especially on chassis that end up being sub-par even at their best.

I think this results in people with only IS mechs thinking IS just sucks because they got caught wasting a ton of money trying to get doomed builds to work.

The heat, duration, and variety of weapons for IS is a very welcome difference for me when going between clan mechs to my IS mechs.

[RickySpanish]

Moldur, on 11 November 2021 - 04:39 AM, said:

Omni mechs are easier to build out due to locked engine. Because of this, you tend to see less terrible omnimech builds. The open-endedness of non omni mechs, and especially with the greater engine choice in IS is a lot of room to waste 5 million c-bills putting the wrong engine or something into it, which will ruin the entire baseline for the rest of the configuration, especially on chassis that end up being sub-par even at their best.

I think this results in people with only IS mechs thinking IS just sucks because they got caught wasting a ton of money trying to get doomed builds to work.

The heat, duration, and variety of weapons for IS is a very welcome difference for me when going between clan mechs to my IS mechs.

Oh there are plenty of very bad Omnimech builds too. Plus, Clan tech is wickedly expensive so it's perfectly possible to dump an absolute buttload of c-bills into a chassis you can't play, with an engine you cannot transfer. The potential to waste money is present for both sides!

[pbiggz]

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

Rock, paper, scissor.

Most is to make a role for each side.

IS used the group of 4 , trebuchet as the 4th member as example is made for the rule of 4

In which each mech was very polarized to a specific role. 1x LRM Archer, 1x AC Jeager, 1x scout, 1x support

Clan = 4 jack of everything, with every single weapon attached to it. There you have 4 LRM/Direct fire, support, scout.

Clan is mostly military thinking and clan is mostly star league thinking. Then we have salvaged clan mech used by the inner sphere warriors using " The rule of 4"

Cargo ships could take as many it could fit based on size and tonnage. The inner sphere was stuck into thinking the rule of 4 that they always send every single squad in the rule of 4. This wasn't always the case but it is part of the history behind the trebuchet.

A: None of this is relevant
B: You don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't make authoritative proclamations like you do.

[The6thMessenger]

I think there WAS Inner-Sphere bias, was. This was the result of over-correction as a result of clan-tech being pretty much OP at the time. As of right now, disregarding some nitpick, is overall fine.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Elaxter, on 10 November 2021 - 12:55 PM, said:

That seems like a cop-out. If you can't answer, don't say anything. I'm asking straight questions.

and you got more than enough answers; the point is: you don't wanna hear them, it seems.

[Curccu]

w0qj, on 11 November 2021 - 03:36 AM, said:

35ton Adder (MWO circa 2014) goes at 97kph, can equip LBX20 in its arm, albeit with no lower arm actuator & no hand actuator.

35ton Raven-4X goes at 99.5kph, can equip (1 Slug shooting) AC20 in its arm, albeit with no lower arm actuator & no hand actuator.

edit: Funny part that Adder has better quirks because it's worse mech of these two?

Edited by Curccu, 11 November 2021 - 07:12 AM.

[Pika]

The6thMessenger, on 11 November 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

I think there WAS Inner-Sphere bias, was. This was the result of over-correction as a result of clan-tech being pretty much OP at the time. As of right now, disregarding some nitpick, is overall fine.

I think I remember these days. Banshees and Thunderbolts as far as the eye could see. I kinda miss it, actually. Was when I played FW the most as a Ghost Bear.

[pbiggz]

Pika, on 11 November 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

I think I remember these days. Banshees and Thunderbolts as far as the eye could see. I kinda miss it, actually. Was when I played FW the most as a Ghost Bear.

Its when everyone played faction play them most.

It was glorious.

[caravann]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 11 November 2021 - 12:52 AM, said:

I don't want to seem to be condescending, but caravann, you seem to either lack knowledge on some crucial game mechanics or you're unable to express yourself because english is not your first language.
Ghost Heat occurs when you fire a set number of weapons from the same Heat Scale group within a time frame of 0.5 seconds.
Have a read on the tables: https://mwo.nav-alph...pment/ghostheat

My own test on IS small laser

Heatsink ratio 2.0
Small laser 1.9 heat

0 heat bar = 0% heat

50 heat bar = + 0.5 heat each shot

[Curccu]

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

My own test on IS small laser

Heatsink ratio 2.0
Small laser 1.9 heat

0 heat bar = 0% heat

50 heat bar = + 0.5 heat each shot

So what does that have anything to do with heat scale/ghost heat?

[pbiggz]

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

My own test on IS small laser

Heatsink ratio 2.0
Small laser 1.9 heat

0 heat bar = 0% heat

50 heat bar = + 0.5 heat each shot

Curccu, on 11 November 2021 - 07:44 AM, said:

So what does that have anything to do with heat scale/ghost heat?

I'll tell you exactly what it means.

It means caravann realizes he's talking out of his *** and is panicking, trying to do "tests" to save face because we called him on it.

Dude you have to stop. You don't get to just make things up, and proclaim them to the heavens as though someone died and made you king. There are plenty of people here who know what they're talking about and you are evidently not among them. That's ok as long as you're honest about it, everyone has to start somewhere and you'll learn alot if you keep your ears open. But passing yourself off as a subject matter expert on a thing which you transparently know nothing about is slimy slimy slimy.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 November 2021 - 07:57 AM.

[pattonesque]

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 07:40 AM, said:

My own test on IS small laser

Heatsink ratio 2.0
Small laser 1.9 heat

0 heat bar = 0% heat

50 heat bar = + 0.5 heat each shot

if you're testing this in testing grounds, values will be inexact. this is a known issue

[Hobbles v]

When it comes to performing mechs, IS and clan are very even overall.

Another factor the "clans op" crowd ignores is that IS stock mechs need more work in the mechlab to make usable. They too often come with bracket build weapon loadouts, with no armor, no ammo, weak engines and single heat sinks. They provide a far worse starting point than the average stock clan build.

Also the greater amount of IS weapon types is simultaneously a strength and weakness.
It gives IS the ability to build a wider array of specialized mechs for different strong points. But this also leaves more room for mechlab error and access to more trap weapon systems that are bad for general use.

Greater choice and poorer starting builds basically takes the PICNIC problem with bad/inexperienced players and amplifies it on IS side.

The only thing remotely close to being bias ive seen recently, is the love being given to the Garbage level IS mechs quirk wise, and they desperately needed it. The bad clan mechs havnt gotten as much love yet, but they dont need it as much.


*edit*
PICNIC = problem in chair not in computer

Edited by Hobbles v, 11 November 2021 - 09:27 AM.

[martian]

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

Rock, paper, scissor.

Most is to make a role for each side.

IS used the group of 4 , trebuchet as the 4th member as example is made for the rule of 4

In which each mech was very polarized to a specific role. 1x LRM Archer, 1x AC Jeager, 1x scout, 1x support

ARC-2R Archer with its twin LRM-20s and that paltry back-up armament of two front-firing and two rear-firing medium lasers is actually a fire support unit too.

JM6-S JagerMech with its quad Autocannons and that paltry back-up armament of two medium lasers (and paper thin armor) is actually a fire support unit too.

Many Inner Sphere 'Mechs sport very versatile loadouts. Just to name some of the most common IS BattleMechs:

• WHM-6R Warhammer comes with twin PPCs, medium lasers, small lasers, machine guns, SRMs.
  
• CRD-3R Crusader comes with twin LRM-15s, medium lasers, machine guns, SRM-6s.
  
• TDR-5S Thunderbolt comes with large laser, LRM-15, medium lasers, SRMs, machine guns ...
  
• STK-3F Stalker carries a hodge-podge of LRMs, large lasers, medium lasers, SRMs ...
  
• Etc.

These aforementioned IS 'Mechs can fulfill many battlefield roles. Ranged fire support (direct and sometimes indirect), medium range combat, brawling, anti-vehicle tasks, anti-infantry duty, etc.

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

Clan = 4 jack of everything, with every single weapon attached to it. There you have 4 LRM/Direct fire, support, scout.

Well, not always.

For example, I can not agree with your opinion that Clan 'Mechs are typical "jack-of-all-trades" units.

There have been many Clan 'Mechs designed with the single focus in mind, usually for anti-Mech operations and nothing else:

• The Black Hawk Prime carries nothing but Clan ER Medium lasers. Nothing but dedicated direct-fire anti-Mech armament ...
  
• The Ryoken Prime carries nothing but Clan ER Large and ER Medium lasers. Nothing but dedicated direct-fire anti-Mech armament ...
  
• The Masakari Prime carries nothing but Clan ER PPCs with tiny LRM rack added almost as an afterthought. Nothing but dedicated anti-Mech armament ...
  
• The Fenris Prime carries one massive Clan ER PPC with one small laser and a small SSRM-2 rack for added critseeking.. Nothing but dedicated direct-fire anti-Mech armament ...
  
• Etc.

Have you noticed? They are armed with one or two types of weapons. So no "every single weapon attached to it".

You can check those 'Mechs in the MWO Mechlab.

caravann, on 11 November 2021 - 03:24 AM, said:

Clan is mostly military thinking and clan is mostly star league thinking. Then we have salvaged clan mech used by the inner sphere warriors using " The rule of 4"

Cargo ships could take as many it could fit based on size and tonnage. The inner sphere was stuck into thinking the rule of 4 that they always send every single squad in the rule of 4. This wasn't always the case but it is part of the history behind the trebuchet.

The Clans have salvaged many IS 'Mechs as well and put them into their PGCs.

[Hobbles v]

martian, on 11 November 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

ARC-2R Archer with its twin LRM-20s and that paltry back-up armament of two front-firing and two rear-firing medium lasers is actually a fire support unit too.

JM6-S JagerMech with its quad Autocannons and that paltry back-up armament of two medium lasers (and paper thin armor) is actually a fire support unit too.

Many Inner Sphere 'Mechs sport very versatile loadouts. Just to name some of the most common IS BattleMechs:

• WHM-6R Warhammer comes with twin PPCs, medium lasers, small lasers, machine guns, SRMs.
  
• CRD-3R Crusader comes with twin LRM-15s, medium lasers, machine guns, SRM-6s.
  
• TDR-5S Thunderbolt comes with large laser, LRM-15, medium lasers, SRMs, machine guns ...
  
• STK-3F Stalker carries a hodge-podge of LRMs, large lasers, medium lasers, SRMs ...
  
• Etc.

These aforementioned IS 'Mechs can fulfill many battlefield roles. Ranged fire support (direct and sometimes indirect), medium range combat, brawling, anti-vehicle tasks, anti-infantry duty, etc.




Well, not always.

For example, I can not agree with your opinion that Clan 'Mechs are typical "jack-of-all-trades" units.

There have been many Clan 'Mechs designed with the single focus in mind, usually for anti-Mech operations and nothing else:

• The Black Hawk Prime carries nothing but Clan ER Medium lasers. Nothing but dedicated direct-fire anti-Mech armament ...
  
• The Ryoken Prime carries nothing but Clan ER Large and ER Medium lasers. Nothing but dedicated direct-fire anti-Mech armament ...
  
• The Masakari Prime carries nothing but Clan ER PPCs with tiny LRM rack added almost as an afterthought. Nothing but dedicated anti-Mech armament ...
  
• The Fenris Prime carries one massive Clan ER PPC with one small laser and a small SSRM-2 rack for added critseeking.. Nothing but dedicated direct-fire anti-Mech armament ...
  
• Etc.

Have you noticed? They are armed with one or two types of weapons. So no "every single weapon attached to it".

You can check those 'Mechs in the MWO Mechlab.



The Clans have salvaged many IS 'Mechs as well and put them into their PGCs.

Pretty sure this thread is about video game balance. Why the hell are you two going back and forth about lore?

[pbiggz]

Hobbles v, on 11 November 2021 - 09:01 AM, said:

*edit*
PICNIC = problem in chair not in computer

Also known as a PEBCAC error (Problem Exists Between Chair And Computer) and an ID 10 dash T error.

Hobbles v, on 11 November 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

Pretty sure this thread is about video game balance. Why the hell are you two going back and forth about lore?

Clan and IS balance is a balancing act not just between the two tech bases, but between arena balance, flavour, and placation of raving baby boomer fanatic battletech fans.

There are people in this community who very unironically believe tabletop weapon damage values and 10v12 would have made clan vs IS balanced. They think these things will work "because of the lore". In other words its how it was in the book they read in their 20s, and they want the game to let them live out that fantasy. These people are, to put it lightly, ******* wrong.