148 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

some of these questions players can answer for your selves

put together a test
one Mech for each weight class both IS and Clan

that is 4 IS Mechs and 4 Clan Mechs

build your Mechs for the highest alpha you can
each mech will get only one shot (or alpha if you will)
do it on the training grounds

some of the things you might look at
1) alpha number (potential damage)
2) actual damage number (
3) heat
4) XXX

you could do the test with no heat nodes and maybe redo the test with as many heat nodes you can

I know I build my skill tree for my IS and Clan Mechs differently
for example almost all my Clan Mechs get the max amount of heat nodes I can

personally I feel both sides are fairly close but it is very easy to be fooled


GLHF

Edited by Davegt27, 11 November 2021 - 09:36 AM.

[martian]

Hobbles v, on 11 November 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

Pretty sure this thread is about video game balance. Why the hell are you two going back and forth about lore?

He has come with it. And like it or not, some MWO players care about such things. I would say that it influences their design choices and the loadouts of their 'Mechs in MWO too.

How I understand it, he argued that the IS 'Mechs are disadvantaged when compared with the Clan 'Mechs and that such disadvantage has its origin in canon materials.

And then he has mixed the ghost heat into the discussion ...

[pbiggz]

Davegt27, on 11 November 2021 - 09:35 AM, said:

some of these questions players can answer for your selves

put together a test
one Mech for each weight class both IS and Clan

that is 4 IS Mechs and 4 Clan Mechs

build your Mechs for the highest alpha you can
each mech will get only one shot (or alpha if you will)
do it on the training grounds

some of the things you might look at
1) alpha number (potential damage)
2) actual damage number (
3) heat
4) XXX

you could do the test with no heat nodes and maybe redo the test with as many heat nodes you can

I know I build my skill tree for my IS and Clan Mechs differently
for example almost all my Clan Mechs get the max amount of heat nodes I can

personally I feel both sides are fairly close but it is very easy to be fooled be the big numbers

GLHF

You don't even need to. The values are all clearly available on mechdb 2.0.

The OP example of heavy medium lasers having as much damage as large pulse lasers left out that heavy lasers had a massive cooldown, way more heat, a burn time longer than the cooldown of the large pulse, half the range, and a third less dps.

This is not rocket science. If you ignore some values and not others you can make anything look like whatever you want. If you do that deliberately (and I don't think OP did), there's a word for it. It's called lying. People who do that are liars.

I'm glad to see the majority of responses to this thread have been essentially that clan-is balance is basically on the mark, because it is. Pretty much any respondent who has challenged that has used incomplete data or a complete lack of base knowledge to justify their position. Those responses should be dismissed in their entirety.

[pattonesque]

pbiggz, on 11 November 2021 - 09:46 AM, said:

You don't even need to. The values are all clearly available on mechdb 2.0.

The OP example of heavy medium lasers having as much damage as large pulse lasers left out that heavy lasers had a massive cooldown, way more heat, a burn time longer than the cooldown of the large pulse, half the range, and a third less dps.

This is not rocket science. If you ignore some values and not others you can make anything look like whatever you want. If you do that deliberately (and I don't think OP did), there's a word for it. It's called lying. People who do that are liars.

I'm glad to see the majority of responses to this thread have been essentially that clan-is balance is basically on the mark, because it is. Pretty much any respondent who has challenged that has used incomplete data or a complete lack of base knowledge to justify their position. Those responses should be dismissed in their entirety.

oh, I don't know that he's ignoring it. I just think a lot of MWO pubbies have a poor understanding of this game and may legit not know that duration matters.

[caravann]

there's factors into it that just look at the stats. the map itself and what stess the opponent will make on such map and if the map has lava or how important it is to have this mech shooting forever or single shots will be enough to create a domino where they'll back off just to avoid taking fire or if they'll continue through it. This is example what happens when someone gets shot by MRM10 of a Dverish or bushwhacker. They'll rather back off than moving forward even if yourself is in such state that you have no guns available since everything is on cooldown. That's why how the gun is working is important than how much heat it generate. heavy damage can make a player flinch even if the actual damage is low which been the debacle about why you shouldn't care being shot by ac2's while also why you should be bothering since small damages will take down the armor. high damage single shots is a way to cause heavier critical hits, while small guns in many hardpoints gain higher amount of chances.

What I see is that Inner sphere gains quirks to compensate the lacking of hardpoints. The Inner sphere is in such disadvantage that the balance is based on adding advantages. That's why Inner sphere has so many quirks instead of adding hardpoints.

The lore influenced the mechs in such way that machineguns somehow perform equally on both sides while clans are lighter. a heavier guns include a heavier barrel who reduce the recoil effect of the gun that making clans having lighter machineguns makes me question just why they have lighter guns when lighter ammunition would be realistic as the gun itself need the weight to prevent the handler, the arm/ turret from moving. This is how tanks uses its own weight to prevent the recoil of the gun, lighter ammunition to IS maybe solve this question why Clan machineguns are lighter than IS guns. It's not an autocannon, it's not in need of endo-steel. it is a machinegun from the 20 century who is lighter because the lore writer wanted clan to be superior in every way.

[Duke Falcon]

@OP
You know clan-tech is super-nerfed just for the sake of this game. If the difference between IS and clan-tech would follow the canon you would cry loud. I mean a clan medium able to defeat IS assaults, lore-wise a mere Hellbringer eats an Atlas alive and belch some more IS mechs aswell. And Hellbringer is a legendarily unarmoured and heat-troubled clan design.
So, what you see ingame, believe it or not, balanced. Extremely-balanced. And be happy we could not have a lore-wise Firemoth (man, the serves could blow up when 12 Firemoths are in a match).
I have both techbase. Clan mechs are very fragile and a bad decision often results near destruction. A spheroid mech could tolerate far more. No wonder the FP matches usually have more IS players in the lobby than clanners. I not say there are no occasions when certain techs feels OP but every such techs have some counter-devices.
Try some omnis and you would see there is no clans are OP, nerf them things...

[martian]

pattonesque, on 11 November 2021 - 10:06 AM, said:

oh, I don't know that he's ignoring it. I just think a lot of MWO pubbies have a poor understanding of this game and may legit not know that duration matters.

The OP's badge shows that he has been playing MWO for years.

[pattonesque]

martian, on 11 November 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

The OP's badge shows that he has been playing MWO for years.

point still stands!

[martian]

pattonesque, on 11 November 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

point still stands!

Sure.

But the OP's question was something I would expect from somebody who has been playing MWO for a few days, not from somebody who has been around for a decade.

[pattonesque]

martian, on 11 November 2021 - 10:45 AM, said:

Sure.

But the OP's question was something I would expect from somebody who has been playing MWO for a few days, not from somebody who has been around for a decade.

to be fair there are a lot of of esoteric mechanics in this game with poor documentation. how many folks know that if you take radar deprivation and someone loses lock on you, your mech makes a small beeping noise and a light flashes in the cockpit? It's hugely useful information to have and yet I don't know how you'd stumble upon it.

[martian]

pattonesque, on 11 November 2021 - 10:49 AM, said:

to be fair there are a lot of of esoteric mechanics in this game with poor documentation. how many folks know that if you take radar deprivation and someone loses lock on you, your mech makes a small beeping noise and a light flashes in the cockpit? It's hugely useful information to have and yet I don't know how you'd stumble upon it.

Of course. What you have just described is one thing, but not realizing that the farther from the target you are, the less damage your HML does, is another ... The 'Mechlab info popup shows it graphically AND in writing.

[PocketYoda]

Less so now after the changes.. Clan were far better a year or so ago.. (i don't care that all the champs run IS in tournaments) Clan were a lot superior in Quickplay..

The changes these days its a lot better.

[GentleMouse]

Seen a few people here saying to play clans to figure it out for yourself.

That's entirely un-necessary - I only play inner sphere myself and I'm as close to unbiased as anybody else. Know why? I pay attention to what builds I need to be scared of.

Some examples:
100 point alpha laser vomit builds (typically clan)
SNACs (IS only)
RACs (IS only)
Dual Heavy Gauss (IS only)
6xLB2's (typically clan)
UAC5+UAC10 (I've only seen on clanners)
Quad 10s (both IS and clan)

Then there's a whole host of builds that are fairly equal between the two factions and are very useful in their own right. Honestly it's pretty funny that the game is as balanced as it is. Especially given that in a vacuum, every single thing you can slot into a clan mech is better than its' IS counterparts (especially DHS, ECM, Ferro/Endo, and XL engines). It creates the fantasy/illusion that clan tech is more advanced and better (as it is in the lore) without outright giving IS mechs a handicap in game.

[Curccu]

GentleMouse, on 14 November 2021 - 12:29 PM, said:

Seen a few people here saying to play clans to figure it out for yourself.

That's entirely un-necessary - I only play inner sphere myself and I'm as close to unbiased as anybody else. Know why? I pay attention to what builds I need to be scared of.

Some examples:
100 point alpha laser vomit builds (typically clan)

Would you like to give build to that 100 point alpha laser vomit https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/

[Heavy Money]

Curccu, on 14 November 2021 - 01:36 PM, said:

Would you like to give build to that 100 point alpha laser vomit https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/

They are probably referring to stuff like these Direwolf builds:

UAC10's+Lasers (105 Alpha with double tap): dwf-c
Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha): dwf-c

There's also some other uac dakka builds that can get over 100 alpha iirc.

Generally though, alphas that high are rare. But the general idea that clans can get some very high alpha numbers due to their laser vomit is correct. IS can't get anywhere near as high. Instead, IS has the highest PPFLD (pin point, front loaded damage) alphas from stuff like AC20+Snubs, or the various new 50dmg PPFLD snipers. Clan Alphas are higher on paper, but are often coming with burn times well over a second long, and/or gauss mixed with lasers which is difficult to time well.

Edited by Heavy Money, 14 November 2021 - 03:25 PM.

[GentleMouse]

Heavy Money, on 14 November 2021 - 03:22 PM, said:

They are probably referring to stuff like these Direwolf builds:

UAC10's+Lasers (105 Alpha with double tap): dwf-c
Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha): dwf-c

There's also some other uac dakka builds that can get over 100 alpha iirc.

Generally though, alphas that high are rare. But the general idea that clans can get some very high alpha numbers due to their laser vomit is correct. IS can't get anywhere near as high. Instead, IS has the highest PPFLD (pin point, front loaded damage) alphas from stuff like AC20+Snubs, or the various new 50dmg PPFLD snipers. Clan Alphas are higher on paper, but are often coming with burn times well over a second long, and/or gauss mixed with lasers which is difficult to time well.

Yeah, this - like I said I don't play clans so you gotta forgive me for not knowing the specifics of the builds. I just see people talking about their '100 point alpha no ghost heat' builds and move on barely acknowledging their existence

[Heavy Money]

The Clan vs IS balance is quite good overall. There are places each fall short, and areas where each have an edge. But they both have good areas of specialty that stack up evenly enough. The main issue is simply that Clans look better on paper due to the weapon stats. But as others have said, IS mechs tend to come out ahead on quirks.

If you look at what mechs are at the top of the meta, you'll see plenty on both sides overall. Although you may see one side with slightly more options in a given area, you won't find either side really lacking in any area completely.

If someone is claiming that Clan vs IS differences are really the deciding factor in anything major, they are probably just misunderstanding what went down, or are unaware of other factors.

Edited by Heavy Money, 14 November 2021 - 03:33 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Heavy Money, on 14 November 2021 - 03:22 PM, said:

They are probably referring to stuff like these Direwolf builds:

UAC10's+Lasers (105 Alpha with double tap): dwf-c
Gauss+Lasers (91 alpha): dwf-c

There's also some other uac dakka builds that can get over 100 alpha iirc.

Generally though, alphas that high are rare. But the general idea that clans can get some very high alpha numbers due to their laser vomit is correct. IS can't get anywhere near as high. Instead, IS has the highest PPFLD (pin point, front loaded damage) alphas from stuff like AC20+Snubs, or the various new 50dmg PPFLD snipers. Clan Alphas are higher on paper, but are often coming with burn times well over a second long, and/or gauss mixed with lasers which is difficult to time well.

Doesn't really matter about burn times when you only have to hit someone once.

[justcallme A S H]

Burn times are of key importance.

[pbiggz]

MechaGnome, on 15 November 2021 - 05:38 AM, said:

Doesn't really matter about burn times when you only have to hit someone once.

uh...

yes it does?

if you just tap someone with a heavy laser you'll do a fraction of the total alpha. If you drag your dakka across somebody's face you'll only do part of your alpha to each component. Clan ER PPCs spread *no matter how accurate you are*.

Are you just not aware of this or is this deliberate?

Edited by pbiggz, 15 November 2021 - 05:46 AM.