148 replies to this topic

[Heavy Money]

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

You nerds are arguing semantics, but dude has a point.
A hellbringer or ebon jag can absolutely drop an XL IS mech in under 2 alphas.
Now compound that with 11 other guys who focus fire.

Wait till you learn about AC20+3Snubs, Dual Heavy Gauss, 2LGR+2ERPPC, etc. There's IS heavy mechs that can 3 shot many XL mechs from 900m! Its totally bonkers. Clan has no chance!

[pattonesque]

so weird, getting one-shot so rarely happens to me that I specifically remember instances where it's happened, and yet some of these dudes are just going around getting blown up immediately all the time! I wonder what the difference might be (it's because they position poorly and don't twist)

[feeWAIVER]

YueFei, on 16 November 2021 - 10:06 AM, said:

No he doesn't. It's so divorced from reality that you may as well argue about spherical cows in a vacuum.



And if that happens, the IS XL mech pilot deserved it. Because you absolutely have the opportunity and ability to twist off / stutter-step the damage. I've already shown numerous times mathematically that mech agility in MWO is high enough to do this (especially after Cauldron agility buffs), because large enough lateral shifts will occur faster than human reaction times. And, to back up my theory-crafting, we need only observe Competitive play, where the best players and best marksmen don't end every match with drilled out CTs or XL-checked with nothing else scratched on their mechs.

If you get one/two-shot and XL-checked? It happens to all of us. The difference is that some of us cry about it and bleat excuses, while others laugh at their own stupidity and try to learn from it so we don't make the same mistake.



If you're getting focus-fired by 11 other guys, that's purely your problem, not a game design issue. Despite all the jokes about people wanting more hand-holding from the Cauldron, there's only so much they can do for you. If you're going to pay no attention to enemy lanes of fire and skyline yourself so badly that all 12 enemies can shoot at you, you deserve to die quickly.

Who are you talking to? It's like you don't know who I am.
I spent years in an ebon jag XL checking half the enemy team in a matter of minutes.
That's what a good FP team can do.

This isn't theory, this has been practiced and repeated.
As long as IS has that liability, I will always bet on clan in an evenly matched game.

[pattonesque]

faction play lol

[1453 R]

I've had some really nice games with a Beamspam Lolbringer, lately. Heavy larges and ER mediums, a very powerful burn.

A lot of things have to go right for me to use that burn.

The Hellbringer cannot stand and fight. It is absolutely terrible in a brawl. The beamvomit Hellbringer is kinda the epitome of an ambush/trader 'Mech. If you and your target are both looking at each other drawing beads, you're gonna lose. The Hellbringer requires congested cover it can easily duck back behind to cool off after an extremely hot energy burn, it requires targets that are not paying much attention to it, and it generaly benefits when those targets do not, themselves, have easy access to cover.

There are a few spots in a few maps where a beamvomit Hellbringer can be absolutely oppressive. The best game I had, by far, was on River City, where I was in the dense urban cover to the southwest of the Citadel shooting into multiple enemies engaging the bulk of my team (who were camping the Citadel like nubs, because of course) from the water. I had free reign to fire unimpeded at my choice of targets, and could duck counterfire easily. I ended that game with close to eight hundred damage and five kills/KMDDs.

It was also a case of getting the perfect ground, the perfect gallery of targets, the perfect play by my team to keep the enemy focused on someone other than the Lolbringer burning them...everything converged in that game. Other 'mechs can output similar results for far less work.

The new STK-7D from the Hunter pack can get those games just kinda by existing, even with its 'lesser' Spheroid beams. I honestly prefer the Stalker to the Hellbringer by a significant margin in terms of energy boats. I've got my own about as optimized as I can get it, and while my range is a little shorter than an equivalent Clan energy gargler? I still get perfectly acceptable damage out to ~500m, my full-blat burn is a perfectly respectable 63 points, and I get two of those back to back without override issues or capping out. After that, the pulse lasers are the next best thing to heat neutral. The burn is much shorter and more focused, and the 'Mech isn't made of spun sugar. Unlike the Hellbringer, the Stalker can get stuck in and brawl, aggressively force a kill the Hellbringer would have to let limp away. Now yes, the Stalker weighs twenty more tons, but man. It's a much more dangerous 'Mech, even with inferior Sphere technology. The Stalker puts up Hellbringer-like numbers just kinda by existing in the map, where the Hellbringer requires extremely careful positioning, strict trigger discipline, and extensive patience to get working right.

I love my Clan machines, I'm a Clan pilot by default. I love the versatility that comes from a well thought out Clan loadout and being able to adjust to different field conditions. But man...when the Sphere gets something right, it's gotten right.

[pbiggz]

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

Who are you talking to? It's like you don't know who I am.
I spent years in an ebon jag XL checking half the enemy team in a matter of minutes.
That's what a good FP team can do.

Good for you. We too, also play mechwarrior from time to time.

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

This isn't theory, this has been practiced and repeated.
As long as IS has that liability, I will always bet on clan in an evenly matched game.

Clan alphas are high on paper but with torso twisting they rarely do more pinpoint than IS alphas. Clans have very high DPS dakka options, so does the IS.

This is a case of you preferring the clans. You like the weapons and you feel like you can kill things faster with them. I'm the same. I generally prefer clan weapons to IS weapons. That's fine.

This is not a case of objective clan superiority and passing off your anecdotes and authoritative fact is misleading.

[Bud Crue]

I've read through this whole thread and I can't help but wonder is this idea of tech based "bias" even an issue for anyone outside of Faction Play? I had no idea this sort of "bias" discussion still had relevance, let alone adherents, in this era of the game.

If this is a QP concern, then, well, If you believe there is indeed some sort of bias giving the other side of the tech unfair advantages, there is nothing stopping you from just playing those mechs; so what's the problem?

[1453 R]

Having not read through the whole mess, I assume it's just more of the same malarky as always. "Diehard Succession Wars-era 3025 Purist(s) Complains About Damn Dirty Clammers; Damn Dirty Clammers Respond With Contractionless Sass."

Always what these end up as, pretty much without fail.

Edited by 1453 R, 16 November 2021 - 03:24 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

pattonesque, on 16 November 2021 - 12:04 PM, said:

faction play lol

Games dead lol

[Kanil]

Bud Crue, on 16 November 2021 - 02:49 PM, said:

If this is a QP concern, then, well, If you believe there is indeed some sort of bias giving the other side of the tech unfair advantages, there is nothing stopping you from just playing those mechs; so what's the problem?

Some people are emotionally invested in not being a smelly Clanner. Others don't want to drive trashborn rustbuckets. Seems pretty understandable to me that these people would be greatly concerned about faction balance, even though they only play QP.

1453 R, on 16 November 2021 - 12:25 PM, said:

Now yes, the Stalker weighs twenty more tons, but man. It's a much more dangerous 'Mech, even with inferior Sphere technology. The Stalker puts up Hellbringer-like numbers just kinda by existing in the map...

I feel you're understating those 20 tons a bit. In my experience, it's more a case of assault 'mechs putting up heavy 'mech numbers just by existing on the map, rather than IS laser vomit vs clan laser vomit.

[Davegt27]

Bud Crue, on 16 November 2021 - 02:49 PM, said:

I've read through this whole thread and I can't help but wonder is this idea of tech based "bias" even an issue for anyone outside of Faction Play? I had no idea this sort of "bias" discussion still had relevance, let alone adherents, in this era of the game.

If this is a QP concern, then, well, If you believe there is indeed some sort of bias giving the other side of the tech unfair advantages, there is nothing stopping you from just playing those mechs; so what's the problem?

no big just people talking about stuff (except those few people that are off in never never land)

"Clan vs IS. is there bias"

is there bias, yes there is but no one knows what it is

is there clan or IS bias nope no particular bias in one over the other

one day you might say screw this IS mech I am going Clan
the next day you will say screw this Clan mech I am going IS

both sides are pretty even

so why are some many players unhappy?

that is a question for another day

[pattonesque]

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 03:27 PM, said:

Games dead lol

lol I'll break it down for you though I know you're purposely misunderstanding this rather than actually misunderstanding it

FP has no matchmaking and allows 12-man groups to drop against players who are barely functional. So even, say, an incredibly well-known and famous player with a 1.13 K/DR in QP can perform incredibly well when his group clubs seals for 18 minutes, especially if he's using a good laservom build to XL check IS mechs piloted by brand-new players who have no idea what twisting, cover, or trading are and will stand perfectly still against a full firing line

Some of these builds are of course perfectly capable of doing quite a bit of damage and potentially killing XL mechs quickly if the mech they're firing at does nothing to counter them. Which of course happens all the time in this game, but with matchmaking it is somewhat alleviated.

Matchmaking of course, does not exist in

faction play

lol

[1453 R]

Kanil, on 16 November 2021 - 03:27 PM, said:

Some people are emotionally invested in not being a smelly Clanner. Others don't want to drive trashborn rustbuckets. Seems pretty understandable to me that these people would be greatly concerned about faction balance, even though they only play QP.

Yeah. Basically. Just wish they weren't quite such confrontational buttnuggets about it.

Kanil, on 16 November 2021 - 03:27 PM, said:

I feel you're understating those 20 tons a bit. In my experience, it's more a case of assault 'mechs putting up heavy 'mech numbers just by existing on the map, rather than IS laser vomit vs clan laser vomit.

I dunno. I could take a Warhawk out into the field instead of the Stalker and have to work twice as hard as I do in the Hellbringer for half the numbers. Not all assault 'Mechs get to generate free numbers. Admittedly, I don't know what the current Sphere heavyweight laser spam machine is. I imagine some manner of Grasshopper or other, whatever ends up having the most ridiculous beam quirks, but if the Stalker's taught me anything, it's that enough beam blat needs to be respected no matter which color the lasers are or how rusty/smelly the machine is. I know most Sphere stuff, especially in the heavy bracket, tends to lean more heavily on the ballistics than they do energy spam; this Stalker in particular is kind of a super outlier in that it's a Sphere machine that does really good work by utilizing entirely too many energy hardpoints.

[Heavy Money]

How did XL checking become the yardstick for faction balance? How many good builds even use XL engines on anything larger than a medium? This is like saying IS is overpowered because AC20+3Snubs can 1 shot lights in the back. Its true an an individual data point, but it doesn't mean much in the larger context.

Edited by Heavy Money, 16 November 2021 - 03:44 PM.

[pattonesque]

Heavy Money, on 16 November 2021 - 03:44 PM, said:

How did XL checking become the yardstick for faction balance? How many good builds even use XL engines on anything larger than a medium? This is like saying IS is overpowered because AC20+3Snubs can 1 shot lights in the back. Its true an an individual data point, but it doesn't mean much in the larger context.

"this robot can do the thing I hate but only in very specific and defined circumstances, and because I hate it I will pretend these circumstances happen all the time"

[feeWAIVER]

pattonesque, on 16 November 2021 - 03:37 PM, said:

lol I'll break it down for you though I know you're purposely misunderstanding this rather than actually misunderstanding it

FP has no matchmaking and allows 12-man groups to drop against players who are barely functional. So even, say, an incredibly well-known and famous player with a 1.13 K/DR in QP can perform incredibly well when his group clubs seals for 18 minutes, especially if he's using a good laservom build to XL check IS mechs piloted by brand-new players who have no idea what twisting, cover, or trading are and will stand perfectly still against a full firing line

Some of these builds are of course perfectly capable of doing quite a bit of damage and potentially killing XL mechs quickly if the mech they're firing at does nothing to counter them. Which of course happens all the time in this game, but with matchmaking it is somewhat alleviated.

Matchmaking of course, does not exist in

faction play

lol

lol indeed. You want to shame my Quickplay KDR in a dead game that I haven't even been playing lately because Quickplay is apparently the pinnacle of teamwork? And yet you're perfectly content to saddle up to Pbiggz' tier 4 opinions. If it wasn't for double standards, you wouldn't have any at all.

I stand by everything I said in this thread, and I only popped in to defend that random guy from the usual suspects piling on him over some semantic wordplay.

But I'm home from work now, and what's left of the MWO community isn't worth any more of my time. GLHF.

[GentleMouse]

Heavy Money, on 16 November 2021 - 03:44 PM, said:

How did XL checking become the yardstick for faction balance? How many good builds even use XL engines on anything larger than a medium? This is like saying IS is overpowered because AC20+3Snubs can 1 shot lights in the back. Its true an an individual data point, but it doesn't mean much in the larger context.

It's never been a yardstick, nor will it ever be. That being said, CXL engines are better than both LFE and ISXL, and that's okay. XL engines (both clan and IS) allow a mech to either be more mobile, or bring more firepower than ordinarily possible. With clan mechs this helps offset either the need for good positioning (high heat/cycle time weapons), or the tendency to splash damage with their AC's and lasers. With IS it lets' you boat up clan-like tooltip damage that's a lot easier to get on target, with the obvious risk of getting XL checked.

[pattonesque]

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 04:01 PM, said:

lol indeed. You want to shame my Quickplay KDR in a dead game that I haven't even been playing lately because Quickplay is apparently the pinnacle of teamwork? And yet you're perfectly content to saddle up to Pbiggz' tier 4 opinions. If it wasn't for double standards, you wouldn't have any at all.

I stand by everything I said in this thread, and I only popped in to defend that random guy from the usual suspects piling on him over some semantic wordplay.

But I'm home from work now, and what's left of the MWO community isn't worth any more of my time. GLHF.

a lot of anger as usual from you but very little substance

[YueFei]

feeWAIVER, on 16 November 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

Who are you talking to? It's like you don't know who I am.

Well given the fact I quoted you in my post, I figured it'd be obvious I was talking to you, but it appears that I have to hold your hand like you're 2 years old.

Quote

I spent years in an ebon jag XL checking half the enemy team in a matter of minutes.
That's what a good FP team can do.

This isn't theory, this has been practiced and repeated.

Well if we're going to trot out our stats, I'd point out that I farm gudder than you, and I don't fear laser vomit the way I fear PPFLD. With laser vomit, I have to derp out for a full second to get XL-checked. With PPFLD, I can make a split second error and give a shooter the tiniest windows of opportunity and he might just punch out my side torso. When enemies use laservom it gives me much more margin for error.

Quote

As long as IS has that liability, I will always bet on clan in an evenly matched game.

Is that why the MWO Comp teams use so many IS mechs?

Edited by YueFei, 16 November 2021 - 05:18 PM.

[pattonesque]

YueFei, on 16 November 2021 - 05:17 PM, said:

Is that why the MWO Comp teams use so many IS mechs?

that pales in comparison to the famous player's anecdote of shooting potatoes with 10 hours of playtime in FP