354 replies to this topic

[GreyVonne]

Had it with this bs with ac20.
Never should have been single slug from start.

[Cherry Garden full of Blue Roses]

It's a first patch since... years I think, that I consider as needed, beeing well thought, bringing balance.
Good job!
And thank you :-)
Now BRING BACK 8 vs 8 QP MATCHES! Pls...

Edited by Cherry Garden full of Blue Roses, 17 April 2021 - 10:06 AM.

[Antares102]

Looking forward to Tuesday!
Thank you for the changes

[The Shazbot]

Went ahead and bought the Stryker Pack since this patch is living up to what was promised and from what I saw these 2 variants will be the tankiest Dragon and Thunderbolt variants available.

One small gripe, though. If IS can alpha dual Heavy Gauss (50 ppfld) and AC20 + 3xSnub (50 ppfld) why can we not fire dual IS AC20 (40 ppfld) without ghost heat? I know AC20 used to be the boogeyman, but these days there are a lot of options that are more devastating than boom-'mechs.

Just a thought.

Edited by The Shazbot, 17 April 2021 - 01:57 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

GreyVonne, on 17 April 2021 - 09:55 AM, said:

Had it with this bs with ac20.
Never should have been single slug from start.

Come again?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 17 April 2021 - 11:27 AM.

[Clay Endfield]

The Shazbot, on 17 April 2021 - 11:14 AM, said:

One small gripe, though. If IS can alpha dual Heavy Gauss (50 ppfld) and AC20 + 3xSnub (50 ppfld) why can we not fire dual AC20 (40 ppfld) without ghost heat? I know AC20 used to be the boogeyman, but these days there are a lot of options that are more devastating than boom-'mechs.

Just a thought.

Snub Nose PPCs; You can fire off 3 Snubs for 30 Pinpoint damage now, and they can be used in conjunction with AC-20s for 50 Pinpoint Damage. This'll net you 50 pinpoint damage @ 270 meters every 4 seconds for 21 points of heat. Compare that to HGR, which scores 50 pinpoint damage @ 220 meters every 5 seconds (not including charge up time) for 4 points of heat. Then consider tonnage, slot consumption, and required hardpoints; you'll find that a lot more mechs can run an AC-20 and 3x S-PPCs than 2x HGR.

To top it all off, AC-20 and S-PPCs are pinpoint weapons; C-AC-20 are burst fire and therefore not considered pinpoint. It also only deals 40 damage as opposed to 50. So to reiterate former statements on this kerfuffle, AC-20 can be comboed with S-PPCs; if you were able to combo 2x AC-20s with 3x S-PPCs, you would be able to hit for 70 pinpoint damage, which is complete and utter BS. So to keep it balanced, AC-20 HSL +1 is off the table. Anyways, more mechs can run an AC-20 and 3x S-PPCs than the mechs that can run 2x AC-20s, so I'd rather have the AC-20 and 3x S-PPCs than the 2x AC-20s.

[Daemon04]

weapons balance looks ok-ish but im not seeing any proper content again.

like Arthur keeps saying in RDR:

"Where's my Faction Play?"

[The Shazbot]

Clay Endfield, on 17 April 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

Snub Nose PPCs; You can fire off 3 Snubs for 30 Pinpoint damage now, and they can be used in conjunction with AC-20s for 50 Pinpoint Damage. This'll net you 50 pinpoint damage @ 270 meters every 4 seconds for 21 points of heat. Compare that to HGR, which scores 50 pinpoint damage @ 220 meters every 5 seconds (not including charge up time) for 4 points of heat. Then consider tonnage, slot consumption, and required hardpoints; you'll find that a lot more mechs can run an AC-20 and 3x S-PPCs than 2x HGR.

To top it all off, AC-20 and S-PPCs are pinpoint weapons; C-AC-20 are burst fire and therefore not considered pinpoint. It also only deals 40 damage as opposed to 50. So to reiterate former statements on this kerfuffle, AC-20 can be comboed with S-PPCs; if you were able to combo 2x AC-20s with 3x S-PPCs, you would be able to hit for 70 pinpoint damage, which is complete and utter BS. So to keep it balanced, AC-20 HSL +1 is off the table. Anyways, more mechs can run an AC-20 and 3x S-PPCs than the mechs that can run 2x AC-20s, so I'd rather have the AC-20 and 3x S-PPCs than the 2x AC-20s.

I was not saying 2xAC20 + 3xSnub should be doable without ghost heat, only that 2xAC20 alone shouldn't have it. You will be able to fire AC20 + LBX20 + 3xSnub with no ghost heat after patch, btw. Not much different from your feared 2xAC20 + 3xSnub, which will also be very doable seeing the ghost heat from dual AC20 is not horrible. Just seems pointless to have ghost heat on 2xAC20 by itself when there are more dangerous ppfld alpha options available with no ghost heat.

Edited by The Shazbot, 17 April 2021 - 12:29 PM.

[Vellron2005]

So basically, your idea of a weapons pass is to outright buff all lasers, PPCs, and ACs, nerf ATMs, and turn Gauss into "hey I can snipe you in your spawn from my spawn" weapons - But LRMs are still 900 meters?!

What are you guys smoking over there?

As if sniping wasn't bad enough..

And how exactly is that supposed to increase TTK? What, you gonna double all armor through quirks?

You said you would revert the absurd PPC changes.. but I see here you're not reverting the 20% damage boost?!

So it's again like it was with stealth armor.. where you justified introducing it with "it has disadvantages", and then went ahead and simply removed said disadvantages..

This is power creep at it's most obvious..

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Vellron2005, on 17 April 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

So basically, your idea of a weapons pass is to outright buff all lasers, PPCs, and ACs, nerf ATMs, and turn Gauss into "hey I can snipe you in your spawn from my spawn" weapons - But LRMs are still 900 meters?!

What are you guys smoking over there?

As if sniping wasn't bad enough..

And how exactly is that supposed to increase TTK? What, you gonna double all armor through quirks?

You said you would revert the absurd PPC changes.. but I see here you're not reverting the 20% damage boost?!

So it's again like it was with stealth armor.. where you justified introducing it with "it has disadvantages", and then went ahead and simply removed said disadvantages..

This is power creep at it's most obvious..

Changes are based on pre-March patch. March patch was so bad that it doesn’t count. Just pretend it was a bad dream, PGI is sweeping it under the rug. The original announcement for Cauldron changes was pretty explicit about it this. Think they may have forgotten to say it again.

[MyriadDigits]

kapusta11, on 17 April 2021 - 08:07 AM, said:

No plans to move to the unreal engine.

You going to ask for a unicorn next?

[denAirwalkerrr]

"Oh hey I finally can play this game again" the patch.

Vellron2005, on 17 April 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

So basically, your idea of a weapons pass is to outright buff all lasers, PPCs, and ACs, nerf ATMs, and turn Gauss into "hey I can snipe you in your spawn from my spawn" weapons - But LRMs are still 900 meters?!

What are you guys smoking over there?

As if sniping wasn't bad enough..

And how exactly is that supposed to increase TTK? What, you gonna double all armor through quirks?

You said you would revert the absurd PPC changes.. but I see here you're not reverting the 20% damage boost?!

So it's again like it was with stealth armor.. where you justified introducing it with "it has disadvantages", and then went ahead and simply removed said disadvantages..

This is power creep at it's most obvious..

Waah waah waah no LRM buffs waah

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 17 April 2021 - 01:46 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Patch made by light pilots for light pilots

Goodluck everyone else.

[Clay Endfield]

The Shazbot, on 17 April 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

I was not saying 2xAC20 + 3xSnub should be doable without ghost heat, only that 2xAC20 alone shouldn't have it. You will be able to fire AC20 + LBX20 + 3xSnub with no ghost heat after patch, btw. Not much different from your feared 2xAC20 + 3xSnub, which will also be very doable seeing the ghost heat from dual AC20 is not horrible. Just seems pointless to have ghost heat on 2xAC20 by itself when there are more dangerous ppfld alpha options available with no ghost heat.

Think about how many mechs can actually equip a LBX-20, let alone a LBX-20 + AC-20. What are there, like 5 mechs total? Most of them are annihilators, capable if running betters sets (like 2x HGR). Then remember that LBX 20s aren't pinpoint till around the 150 meter mark; then keep in mind that if you run an LBX-20, you can't run a LE. Try to build an effective LBX-20 + AC-20 + 3x S-PPC build. Because you can't. They're either too slow to be effective, too low on ammo to be reliable, and always too hot to be consistent damage dealers.

However, you can run a LE with 2x AC-20s and 3x S-PPCs, which can help rectify both the heat and speed issues (bigger engine equals higher speed and more internal heatsinks). It's not just about the firepower figure, it's about the practicality of the overall build. KGCs could run around with 70 pinpoint alphas 1-shotting lights and medium mechs like it's nothing. At least with the current setup, if you're gonna want to run LBX-20 + AC-20 + 3x S-PPCs, you're gonna have to pay dearly for it.

[Y E O N N E]

Vellron2005, on 17 April 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

So basically, your idea of a weapons pass is to outright buff all lasers, PPCs, and ACs, nerf ATMs, and turn Gauss into "hey I can snipe you in your spawn from my spawn" weapons - But LRMs are still 900 meters?!

What are you guys smoking over there?

As if sniping wasn't bad enough..

And how exactly is that supposed to increase TTK? What, you gonna double all armor through quirks?

You said you would revert the absurd PPC changes.. but I see here you're not reverting the 20% damage boost?!

So it's again like it was with stealth armor.. where you justified introducing it with "it has disadvantages", and then went ahead and simply removed said disadvantages..

This is power creep at it's most obvious..

"Oh no, I have to learn how to use other weapons systems besides the ones that aim for me from far away with no personal risk strictly necessary and with exceptional heat efficiency!"

[Clay Endfield]

Vellron2005, on 17 April 2021 - 01:22 PM, said:

So basically, your idea of a weapons pass is to outright buff all lasers, PPCs, and ACs, nerf ATMs, and turn Gauss into "hey I can snipe you in your spawn from my spawn" weapons - But LRMs are still 900 meters?!

What are you guys smoking over there?

As if sniping wasn't bad enough..

And how exactly is that supposed to increase TTK? What, you gonna double all armor through quirks?

You said you would revert the absurd PPC changes.. but I see here you're not reverting the 20% damage boost?!

So it's again like it was with stealth armor.. where you justified introducing it with "it has disadvantages", and then went ahead and simply removed said disadvantages..

This is power creep at it's most obvious..

This is first stage in improving TTK; underperforming weapons are getting buffed to meta competitive levels; some old metas are coming back, like Laser Vomit and Gauss + PPC. Later changes (which will undoubtedly include more weapon changes) are looking to decrease Mech scale, buff armor/structure quirks on mechs with wonky profiles and hitboxes, and improve heavier mech agility/speed. If you've ever entered a lobby with exclusively meta builds, then the random drop post-patch will feel similar to that, because underperforming weapons overall will be improved to competitive level with the EXISTING META.

Your gripes sound very... LURMish... I mean, complaining about ranged weaponry getting expansions, LRMs not seeing a buff, and Stealth Armor not having disadvantages (it does have disadvantages, by the way, it's called fixed slot consumption, neutered sensor range, no access to shared targeting data, and passive heat build up; if it didn't have so many disadvantages, every single ECM capable mech would be running Stealth), and then there's your tag, which displays ALRM on it with a pair Supernova-A legs...

All I have to say to you is enjoy getting sniped by Stealth mechs; If these changes make LURMers whine like babies, I'll buy another MAD-4L and keep it stock just to celebrate the falling of the other foot.

[chaosshade2638]

Extensive patch, good to see some weapons getting long-overdue nerf removals (medium lasers were nerfed HARD a while back to prevent boating them)

Things I deem unnecessary in the patch:
- Micro Laser buffs are gonna lead to A LOT more Piranha backstabbers
- IS Gauss Cooldown 4.5 (from 5.0) This is unnecessary, this gives them higher DPS than Clan equivalent.
- LBX AC2/5 spread reduction Given the way these are used normally, this is an unnecessary buff. People boat these and dakka down targets.
- Clan AC5's were in a good place imo other than largely being disused in favor of UAC5's (because burst potential)
- Clan AC20 I have mixed feelings about this, it's going to lead to 40 burst damage off Kodiaks, Mad Cat Mk II's, Blood Asps and anything else that can boat them effectively, very painful. Delete the lights?

Things that SHOULD have been added:
- removal of massive, blinding fireballs from RAC2/5 - make this happen, please? It's really really obnoxious!

[Kodan Black]

I value and appreciate the time and effort that went into this patch both from PGI and from dedicated players. I’ve not only seen names in game that I haven’t seen for a while, but the level of excitement and optimism has been heartening. Thank you all and the other players out there filling the seats of the mechs — both red and blue.

[cougurt]

chaosshade2638, on 17 April 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

Things I deem unnecessary in the patch:
- Micro Laser buffs are gonna lead to A LOT more Piranha backstabbers

the micro laser changes don't affect the piranha too much. any sensible build that was using ER micros wasn't hitting the ghost heat threshold in the first place, making it entirely pointless. you may see some micro pulse builds after the patch, however i don't see them necessarily being stronger than anything the piranha can already do.

chaosshade2638, on 17 April 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

- IS Gauss Cooldown 4.5 (from 5.0) This is unnecessary, this gives them higher DPS than Clan equivalent.

all clan weapons have some sort of drawback compared to their IS counterparts to help balance the fact that they're lighter and take up fewer slots. previously, the downside of clan gauss was its lower HP compared to IS gauss. with that being changed, i think the cooldown buff is more than justified.

chaosshade2638, on 17 April 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

- LBX AC2/5 spread reduction Given the way these are used normally, this is an unnecessary buff. People boat these and dakka down targets.

only people who don't know any better. they're pretty much strictly worse than AC2/5.

chaosshade2638, on 17 April 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

- Clan AC5's were in a good place imo other than largely being disused in favor of UAC5's (because burst potential)

between this and the fact that they take up more slots, you basically just stated the reason for them receiving a buff.

[Wid1046]

chaosshade2638, on 17 April 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

Extensive patch, good to see some weapons getting long-overdue nerf removals (medium lasers were nerfed HARD a while back to prevent boating them)

Things I deem unnecessary in the patch:
- Micro Laser buffs are gonna lead to A LOT more Piranha backstabbers
- IS Gauss Cooldown 4.5 (from 5.0) This is unnecessary, this gives them higher DPS than Clan equivalent.
- LBX AC2/5 spread reduction Given the way these are used normally, this is an unnecessary buff. People boat these and dakka down targets.
- Clan AC5's were in a good place imo other than largely being disused in favor of UAC5's (because burst potential)
- Clan AC20 I have mixed feelings about this, it's going to lead to 40 burst damage off Kodiaks, Mad Cat Mk II's, Blood Asps and anything else that can boat them effectively, very painful. Delete the lights?

Things that SHOULD have been added:
- removal of massive, blinding fireballs from RAC2/5 - make this happen, please? It's really really obnoxious!

I fully agree regarding the need to greatly reduce the blinding fireballs from RAC2/5 (even though I love my BushRACer, Marauder, etc.), however I disagree on most of your other points.

Micro pulse lasers were garbage, so giving them a buff is a good thing. Having a HSL for just the micro pulse lasers may be a good idea for a later patch though (just the micro pulse, so that you can pair them with ER micros). With the buffs to small pulse lasers, Piranhas will be getting a buff anyway, so we'll likely see more of them regardless of the change to micro pulse lasers (the meta build on Grimmechs for PIR-2 for example will be getting more damage, higher maximum dps, and higher sustained dps from the SPL changes https://thecauldron....#cf6e11af_PIR-2 ).

I'm neutral on the IS Gauss changes; I'll have to see how they play in game to form an opinion on them. The cooldown is actually going to 4.75 sec, not 4.5 sec.

I was both fine with and used LB2s before (I use them on my RFL-IIC-2), so while I appreciate the change, I wouldn't miss it much if it weren't being added. For LB5s however the change is important. Virtually no one used LB5s since LB10s were so much better, and the decreased spread at optimum range should help a lot in making LB5s viable.

I have literally never seen (or at least noticed) a single Clan mech that used AC5s before. They were trash. Making them pinpoint should help in at least giving them some niche applications.

Clan AC20 will still be burst, not pinpoint, so they still won't be as good at concentrating their damage as IS options like dual HGR, triple snub PPC with AC20, etc. I don't see this as a major threat to light pilots.