93 replies to this topic

[Errinovar]

Rescaling will make a huge difference in TTK, particularly for the 55 ton mechs that are as tall as assaults, but that might be a long time coming yet. I have no idea as to how the mobility changes will change the game, I mean is the plan to increase the speed of torso twisting etc or is it something far more in depth? So yeah, could be a rough ride until some of the other changes are implemented, but if they manage to hit the goals they set it should be good for the game in the long run, IMO.

[katoult]

kapusta11, on 20 April 2021 - 01:49 AM, said:

The bottom half of the player base will die faster for sure.

Actually, lower TTK mostly affects the mid-skill level.

Why? Because the guys who run into the middle of the enemy 1.5 klick from the team to launch a UAV instadie afterwards anyway while they're busy asking for appreciation on comms or being ridiculed by some smurf. And mobility buffs don't matter either to people who are standing still in place while wondering which wall to walk into next.

Y E O N N E, on 19 April 2021 - 07:47 PM, said:

the bad gameplay where a pilot can waltz forward into the enemy and last long enough to do real damage without having to really torso twist much will fall away as they get cored out giga-quick and learn to not do that.

Torso-twisting is not something done - or its absence exploited - below Tier 3. Period. In fact it's the main thing that sets the players apart between those that just drop for fun and those that ... well, try to git gud.

The question is which side of the playerbase to pander to. And PGI has taken their business decision in that matter.

[justcallme A S H]

kapusta11, on 20 April 2021 - 01:49 AM, said:

The bottom half of the player base will die faster for sure.

The bottom half of the playerbase doesn't shoot. Furthermore the aim is generally not very good.

Hence why T3-T5 games last 10mins+ constantly.... It will make absolutely no difference at that level.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 April 2021 - 02:45 AM.

[PocketYoda]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 20 April 2021 - 02:17 AM, said:

when Guys run over the Ridge or tunnel in enemy Firelines or make stupid Actions, the die is fast , its longer as in the most One Hit Shooters...Nothing Mechanic can secure People from Stupidity like sitting in a Hole Basement and waiting,or drive IS LRM Boats without each Backup Weapons or Stupid Builds
When aPeople not can drive a Light or Assault use other Classes ,when aGuy have Tunnelview or bad Aim , better go to other Games or live with it.A Multiplayer Game is like the Reality not a Ponyhof, when you not can live with it ,it give mW5 and TableTop

When LRMs, Chassies or Weapons so overpowered ,why th Whining crying Snowflakes not use it to have the same Autowin like the Bad Stompers?????and fights again and aganin without Chainfire modes in Overheat Mode and as Close Max Zoom warriers, and the minimap is overpowered

And then people like you whine and cry when there isn't enough population to make a match and you sit there watching a circle for 30 minutes.. Just saying.

Errinovar, on 20 April 2021 - 02:32 AM, said:

Rescaling will make a huge difference in TTK, particularly for the 55 ton mechs that are as tall as assaults, but that might be a long time coming yet. I have no idea as to how the mobility changes will change the game, I mean is the plan to increase the speed of torso twisting etc or is it something far more in depth? So yeah, could be a rough ride until some of the other changes are implemented, but if they manage to hit the goals they set it should be good for the game in the long run, IMO.

Lets not count our chickens that has not happened yet.

justcallme A S H, on 20 April 2021 - 02:43 AM, said:

The bottom half of the playerbase doesn't shoot. Furthermore the aim is generally not very good.
Hence why T3-T5 games last 10mins+ constantly.... It will make absolutely no difference at that level.

With the majority of groups drops containing higher tiers the matches last about 3-5mins.

Edited by MechaGnome, 20 April 2021 - 04:48 AM.

[Brauer]

Kroete, on 19 April 2021 - 11:26 PM, said:

Do the people only use that 6 weapons and never all the others that get a buff?
If they only use the 6 you are right, but i see a lot other weapons used ...

TTK will go down, in the compbubble not that mutch, but for the majority it will.




Do the people out of the compbubble mostly use the 6 wapons, if not ttk will more then slightly go down.
Mobility will make the game more twitchy, but will the majority magicaly twist more or is it just from the comp bubble again?
Quirkpatch? Lots of armor quirks? If not ...

Ttk will not change, the game will not be more twitchy, all weapons get buffed then but not the 6 bestperformers and some missiles that are get a nerf because they are better then best 6 weapons we have, the changes dont come from the compbubble, and if you dont understand that you are dumb! Just buy what the compcroud says, they dont have an agenda!

The weapon systems I named are very common in QP and are the benchmark for TTK in MWO right now. Some others that are also common are either not impacteded by the changes (LRMs), or are being rebalanced a bit (ATMs). The weapons getting buffed are less common and substantially less effective right now.

Edited by Brauer, 20 April 2021 - 06:52 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

MechaGnome, on 20 April 2021 - 04:44 AM, said:

With the majority of groups drops containing higher tiers the matches last about 3-5mins.

Where is the proof of that?

I dropped on an Alt, 50 off games and I didn't not see a single high tier player in any groups in T3-5 matches. Not a single one.

What you are saying is patently false as usual.

[Errinovar]

MechaGnome, on 20 April 2021 - 04:44 AM, said:

And then people like you whine and cry when there isn't enough population to make a match and you sit there watching a circle for 30 minutes.. Just saying.


Lets not count our chickens that has not happened yet.


With the majority of groups drops containing higher tiers the matches last about 3-5mins.

Yeah it could take awhile, but the roadmap suggests the size changes will happen in Q2. Considering the massive change they did to make mech sizes volumetric, I would hope that the tools they used to do that would allow them to manipulate the model sizes in a similar manner.. so perhaps they set the tonnage of mechs of 35 tons and above as a smaller percentage of their true tonnage to the point that the modified mech fits the desired stature.

[Vxheous]

Monkey Lover, on 20 April 2021 - 01:19 AM, said:

Mechs are going to melt faster than they already do. If anyone can't see the builds that's going to open up they don't understand the game. Basically 50% or more of the weapons used in any pug game was buffed.


Really this is what people want. They want this game to be more like fortnight. Might as well let them have it.

The game is not going to turn into fortnight, or COD, or Apex Legends, or Valorant or any other fps you want to name simply because weapons are getting buffed to match the current top standard set by Dakka/MPL/CERPPC. Overall TTK shouldn't change all that much for meta users, other than there's more variety. If you're a kitchen sink type of mechwarrior, your builds weren't very optimized to begin with, and the buffs to the weapons aren't going to affect you much at all simply because that single laser you have on your mech gained +1 damage vs before, or that single SRM2 launcher you have now cools down 0.5 seconds faster.

What this balance patch does is allow me to choose whether I want to play a laser vom, or gauss vom, or 4xERPPC, or Dakka mech in the medium/heavy/assault range and not feel like one choice is worse than another (currently the Dakka mech rules the rest). This also means when I play a light, I can now play the Arctic Cheetah with SPL (or maybe even the revamped MPL) and not feel like it's absolute garbage when compared to a Wolfhound with MPL like it is currently.

Edited by Vxheous, 20 April 2021 - 06:21 AM.

[Nightbird]

Patch will increase the gap between the skilled and unskilled player, as skilled players will see lower TTK via better positioning and aim against less skilled players. Lower TTK also means less chance for retaliation from the less skilled player, so attrition of skilled players will be down as well as the match progresses. Since all matches have players of multiple skill levels mixed together, the skilled players will dominate harder than ever. Have fun?

Edited by Nightbird, 20 April 2021 - 06:50 AM.

[TercieI]

justcallme A S H, on 20 April 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

Where is the proof of that?

I dropped on an Alt, 50 off games and I didn't not see a single high tier player in any groups in T3-5 matches. Not a single one.

What you are saying is patently false as usual.

My alt ran into a couple known Tier 1 players when she was in Tier 4 (Gas Guzzler sticks in my memory), but it was exceedingly rare and I never saw a high tier group either with her or with my main when I came back as Tier 5.

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 20 April 2021 - 06:49 AM, said:

Patch will increase the gap between the skilled and unskilled player, as skilled players will see lower TTK via better positioning and aim against less skilled players. Lower TTK also means less chance for retaliation from the less skilled player, so attrition of skilled players will be down as well as the match progresses. Since all matches have players of multiple skill levels mixed together, the skilled players will dominate harder than ever. Have fun?

How does this patch help higher skill players power TTK at all? To me this is just nonsense. If anything less-skilled players are getting a buff because less-skilled players were, in my experience, far more likely to run weapons that were hot garbage before this patch. The patch will buff what were awful weapons and give players running previously bad builds a better shot because they won't be able to throw as hard in the mechlab.

[Nightbird]

Brauer, on 20 April 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:

How does this patch help higher skill players power TTK at all? To me this is just nonsense. If anything less-skilled players are getting a buff because less-skilled players were, in my experience, far more likely to run weapons that were hot garbage before this patch. The patch will buff what were awful weapons and give players running previously bad builds a better shot because they won't be able to throw as hard in the mechlab.

Because skilled players shoot first.

Whereas before:

Skilled player shoots, deals 40 damage (average player hp: 60/100)
Average player shoots, deals 30 damage (skilled player hp: 70/100)
Skilled player shoots, deals 40 damage (average player hp: 20/100)
Average player shoots, deals 30 damage (skilled player hp: 40/100)
Skilled player shoots, deals 40 damage (average player dies)

Now you'll see more cases of:
Skilled player shoots, deals 50 damage (average player hp: 50/100)
Average player shoots, deals 35 damage (skilled player hp: 65/100)
Skilled player shoots, deals 50 damage (average player dies)

This is simplified, sure, but the skilled player will kill faster and survive with more HP is what you will see in the games.

Edited by Nightbird, 20 April 2021 - 07:15 AM.

[pattonesque]

Nightbird, on 20 April 2021 - 07:11 AM, said:

Because skilled players shoot first.

they were gonna do that with ISMPLs, CERPPCs, UAC5/10s, and LB10s anyway. this just gives them and everyone else more options

[ScrapIron Prime]

Brauer, on 20 April 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:

How does this patch help higher skill players power TTK at all? To me this is just nonsense. If anything less-skilled players are getting a buff because less-skilled players were, in my experience, far more likely to run weapons that were hot garbage before this patch. The patch will buff what were awful weapons and give players running previously bad builds a better shot because they won't be able to throw as hard in the mechlab.

IMO, the patch helps by making a wider variety of weapons viable. The fewer weapons that are "hot garbage", the more variety of mechs we will see on the battlefield at higher tiers. I see that as a good thing.

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 20 April 2021 - 07:11 AM, said:

Because skilled players shoot first.

Whereas before:

Skilled player shoots, deals 40 damage (average player hp: 60/100)
Average player shoots, deals 30 damage (skilled player hp: 70/100)
Skilled player shoots, deals 40 damage (average player hp: 20/100)
Average player shoots, deals 30 damage (skilled player hp: 40/100)
Skilled player shoots, deals 40 damage (average player dies)

Now you'll see more cases of:
Skilled player shoots, deals 50 damage (average player hp: 50/100)
Average player shoots, deals 35 damage (skilled player hp: 65/100)
Skilled player shoots, deals 50 damage (average player dies)

This is simplified, sure, but the skilled player will kill faster and survive with more HP is what you will see in the games.

If the Cauldron has roughly hit their mark in bringing previously garbage tier weapons up closer to good weapons without increasing the overall power level you're just flat out wrong. It's hard to tell if you're intentionally misrepresenting the intent or reality of the buffs or just misinformed.

[Nightbird]

pattonesque, on 20 April 2021 - 07:14 AM, said:

they were gonna do that with ISMPLs, CERPPCs, UAC5/10s, and LB10s anyway. this just gives them and everyone else more options

These are low DPS, or low range weapons. UACs also spread at range pretty well. Compare that to the new gauss + laser vomit or plain laser vomit for example, trivial to focus a component at 500-600 meters and with a 20% DPS over time boost you will notice the TTK change.

[Brauer]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 April 2021 - 07:16 AM, said:

IMO, the patch helps by making a wider variety of weapons viable. The fewer weapons that are "hot garbage", the more variety of mechs we will see on the battlefield at higher tiers. I see that as a good thing.

Agreed. I am excited about the patch and also confident that Cauldron members will seek to have any outliers adjusted if needed.

[Nightbird]

Brauer, on 20 April 2021 - 07:19 AM, said:

If the Cauldron has roughly hit their mark in bringing previously garbage tier weapons up closer to good weapons without increasing the overall power level you're just flat out wrong. It's hard to tell if you're intentionally misrepresenting the intent or reality of the buffs or just misinformed.

You'll see soon enough... patch in 2 hrs.

[justcallme A S H]

pattonesque, on 20 April 2021 - 07:14 AM, said:

they were gonna do that with ISMPLs, CERPPCs, UAC5/10s, and LB10s anyway. this just gives them and everyone else more options

Yeah exactly. Top end Alphas haven't really changed in outright damage. There are just a lot more options on the table now.

It'll also be interesting over the next 3 months to see just how many people come back. I've had around 15-20 guys I used to play regularly with say they are likely to jump back in (some have already). This is on top of a good dozen known solid players I've already seen playing this month so far. All of them should help raise the skill average around. Hopefully it's wide spread between now and June. If the skill level does rise it will actually slow down the NASCAR as more good players means more people taking up smarter positions. Rotations were nowhere near as bad in 2017 for example - and given there are some more ranged options again these silly rotations will be punished good and proper by smarter gameplay.

Of course some will play for a bit and stop again as that's human nature once the new and shiny wears off. It will be interesting to see how many stay vs how many don't. No one can realistically expect heaps to stay and drop off is an inevitable, especially as MWO is pretty dated now, but we'll see where it sits July/Aug.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 20 April 2021 - 07:39 AM.

[East Indy]

Brauer, on 19 April 2021 - 05:30 AM, said:

The minimum time to kill is not changing. The top weapons (UAC10, UAC5, IS MPL, CERPPC, LBX10, AC2) are all staying the same. All that is happening is that under-performing weapons are being buffed.

This is key.

Any extreme drop in TTK assumes a large number of players making suboptimal choices all the time -- and while that may be the case at some levels, it's not where loadout makes the most difference. Instead what we've seen are narrow selections of builds and 'Mechs for years. It's kind of like arguing that buffing 'Mechs few use will affect TTK -- it can't possibly, because...few use them. instead picking the best available.

The other thing is that we just finished a month of players taking advantage of stronger-than-intended pinpoint weapons that were already delivering higher alphas (and were already the most powerful in the game). With those weapons back in place, heck, I think TTK could go either way.