259 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Verilligo, on 24 April 2021 - 09:53 AM, said:

This is likely resolved by simply making the ghost heat penalty on firing three at once worse to the point that it goes back to the 80% heat value from pre-patch.

Yeah, for HPPCs, I agree. 2 HPPCs should not be penalized.

[YueFei]

SNPPC idea:
Further increase its velocity to de-synchronize it from AC20, so if you're moving laterally it won't all hit the same component?

If AC20 + 1xSNPPC on some builds gets inadvertently nerfed by this, then give those mechs AC20 velocity quirk to re-synchronize for 30 damage close-range PPFLD?

[Capt Deadpool]

EXACTLY the type of threads and conversations and community engagement we need to make MWO awesome!!!

Bravo to Ash, The Cauldron, and PGI for finally empowering people who understand and are passionate about the game to actually make the changes that are needed.

I could give a sh!t if I disagree with a balance change here or there; we are headed in the right direction and I hope the rest of the community understands this as well, even if there is some particular change The Cauldron comes up with that might not fit your personal idea of perfection.

[Verilligo]

YueFei, on 24 April 2021 - 10:00 AM, said:

SNPPC idea:
Further increase its velocity to de-synchronize it from AC20, so if you're moving laterally it won't all hit the same component?

If AC20 + 1xSNPPC on some builds gets inadvertently nerfed by this, then give those mechs AC20 velocity quirk to re-synchronize for 30 damage close-range PPFLD?

At the range where you're using an AC20, I'm not sure more velocity on the SNPPC will desync the two all that much. With the current velocity it effectively hits instantly at that range. I think splash or reverting the ghost heat limit, albeit with a lower penalty, might be more effective options while not being strong nerfs.

[RickySpanish]

Splash for snubs to redistribute some damage would be neat, they do have that shotgun feel to them.

[Krasnopesky]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 April 2021 - 09:07 AM, said:

HPPC - What builds make this a problem? I haven't noticed these being as much of an issue.

SNPPCs - I think they are a little too cool and cooldown a little too fast. Once you get 3 of em plus an AC20 or LB40 it can be rough.

uPL - On the Piranha? Anything else? Maybe just a little hotter and a little more burn time?

Light Gauss - Aside from the 50 PPFLD Nightstar (quirks) is this really overperforming? Any more deets?

HPPC seem just a little too cool now, a very minor heat increase would work well.

SNPPCs combining with AC20 for 50 pinpoint was a combination we were watching before the patch even dropped. I don't think the weapons and the damage they do is overpowered, but the pinpoint nature is very oppressive. I am thinking a reduction in snub nose pinpoint and introducing splash damage for SNPPCs would work well to keep the damage relatively similar, keep SNPPC viable and reduce the pinpoint alpha.

uPL I have found extremely good on the Viper, Black Lanner, Nova, Gargoyle so far. Need to test some more. It is also a problem of it stepping on the toes of all the other short range clan weapons.

I really haven't found the Nightstar particularly overpowered, good yes, but broken? Not in my opinion. The mounts are so far apart they really desync the weapon convergence and the Nightstar itself has pretty terrible geometry.

Mechs I have found strong with LGR+ERPPC combo: Warhammer 6R/BW, Corsair 7A, Cataphract IM, Catapult K2, Highlander 732B, Thanatos 4P.

[R Valentine]

FupDup, on 24 April 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

The little fishie is going to get indirectly nerfed when assault mechs are made agile and smaller, meanwhile the fish will stay at its existing size (according to a rescale preview that was posted a while ago).

I'd hold off on nerfing the fish or any other light right now because the ecosystem will change around them in the coming months.

It's mostly a spawn point problem, because everyone and their dog rushes alpha lance on Canyon, Bravo lance on HPG, Alpha lance on Tourmaline, and Charlie lance on Classic Frozen. PGI's obsession with dangling a lance on the left side to get rushed by scrubs is nothing short of infuriating.

[Vxheous]

IanDresarie, on 24 April 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

With that said, I'd like to re-iterate my earlier point: Playing against Laser vomit is currently very not-fun.

Laser vom/gauss vom is fine, it's now back on par with using meta dakka builds (3xUAC5/1xUAC10, 3xUAC5/2xUAC10, 2xUAC5/2xUAC10, 2xUAC10/1xUAC20). Nerf laser vom again, and they become crap to play with again, which means people just straight gravitate to pure dakka builds again. Right now we have choice.

This isn't about what you find playing against not-fun, it's about making everything viable. Personally, I find playing against brawlers that run straight up to you and hug you till you die or they die not-fun, but I recognize the need for brawlers and brawling weapons to be viable too, so I have no issue with the weapons changes that have helped brawling out.

Edited by Vxheous, 24 April 2021 - 11:26 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Krasnopesky, on 24 April 2021 - 10:19 AM, said:

Highlander 732B

Wat? 3 ER PPCs and a LGR? Alpha-ing?

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

on any mech with -10% heat

You know what mech could REALLY use this quirk while you guys are looking at quirks?

The MAD-4A.

[YiffyInAJiffy]

Hey all! Tried to summarize my feedback as concisely as possible. I can’t exactly call myself the best pilot possible, so please take that in mind when factoring in my feedback, I’m totally aware a chunk of it might be “wrong”

Patch Playtime: Around 5-8 hours each day for the last 4 days. (steam quotes me at 62.1 hr over the last two weeks including before the patch)
Total playtime: 807hours
Pilot Bias: I’m a very aggressive player, and tend to stick to lights/heavies more than mediums/assaults
Tier rating: high 3 low 2, though its been aggressively climbing this patch due to sticking to assaults and heavies.

Overall feedback: So far it’s really hard to give feedback on the new patch, as it’s only been a few days, everyone is still playing with the new toys, and I think that skews the experience a *lot*. That being said, I’ve really been enjoying playing a few mechs I never really had a lot of fun with previously.

One of the issues with the previously mentioned skew though is I just haven’t gotten anytime to get a feel for the new large laser buffs. So many people are running snub combos that it’s been a lot harder to find direct trades. I should note I’ve seen more people running 3 snubs and using them to poptart/trade at 500m then people just running 3 ppcs for that same range. As is though, I’m digging them when I get a chance to use them!

Light Pilot feedback: this patch SUCKS. Just kidding, I love it to death, but I have been struggling playing my usual loves.

So many mechs having easier access to 30 pinpoint (an investment that would have cost you very heavy ballistics, or ghost heat previously to acquire) has made taking any engagement as a light so much more of a gamble. For medium, heavy, and assault mechs, that change has been one I’ve enjoyed incredibly, for lights though, it pushes quite a few over a breakpoint to where getting 2 shot is FAR easier.

I understand that in the future, scaling and mobility changes will be coming. However, I don’t think increased twisting is going to make that much of a difference when it comes to the pure pinpoint damage. And scaling is something that’s got no official date. Additionally, the pdf mockup does not show the scaling as covering the entire light cast. Since there’s no announced date on it, I’m focusing more on the now, even though I totally get that those changes could mean everything is a TOTALLY different ballgame in the future.

Playing a light means you’re trading survivability for speed (which becomes your survivability) however the recent jump in 2 shot ability in this pinpoint buff has made that more of a lucky gamble than one you take as a cost/benefit. Especially in a team game like mwo where you often fight someone more than once, across varied skirmishes, that 2 shot breakpoint makes a huge difference on lights, even if on paper it doesn’t seem that big.

I’ve taken the time (using mech db values) to make a chart illustrating this point. The chart has a few caveats
1- All mechs have max armour values according to mech DB
2- All mechs (bar the piranha, flea, and locust) are assumed to have 4 armour in the back over the standard(?) 2. Cauldron changes account for casual as well as comp, and 4 seems to be what most of my group uses at tier 3. However, any mech that would be above one of the breakpoints if it had 2 more armour has been marked with a *
3- 2 shot marker has 2 damage points of wiggle room. Even the best light pilots are going to get tickled by a laser at some point.
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing chart here, may update to fix things/add stuff later!


As a final note, and I know this sounds silly after all of that data, I’m not advocating for a snub nerf. (edit- scratch that, saw the above mention of keeping the dps the same but moving some of the pinpoint to splash, that'd fix the whole issue!) I’ve had an incredible amount of fun with them as medium, heavy, and assault mechs, it’s been a welcome change. However, feedback is feedback, and I think offering how its effected playing as a light from my experience valuable if only for just adding one more voice to the mix. I’ve found myself playing very few of my usual cast of lights during this patch even despite their upgraded toys.

light gauss feedback and mrm 10 feedback- God I love mrm 10’s so much in this patch, they feel like they’ve earned themselves a roll. Theyre fun to fight with, fine to fight against, no complaints. Light gauss has been pretty fun, and while I haven’t toyed with it myself, I can totally see it’s use as a supporting weapon, great change!

Light ppc- Same as previously stated, awesome change! Would be neat to have the HSL set at 4 instead of 3, but honestly, they’ve found new life, and I love running them. They could be left as is and they’d be great either way.

AC changes- All been great so far!
SRM’s VS AMS- Been feeling like my ams doesn’t really do enough against srms even at the edge of their range, but I think that’s just confirmation bias. Probably best to ignore me here!

Masc changes – masc is kicking *** and taking names!

Laser ams change- Literally one of my favorite changes of the patch!

Micro pulses- Honestly I’d totally be fine with these being left as is, but that might just be me. I feel like it’s given the assault that keeps boating them (gargoyle?) an actual personality and a reason to actually pick one up. Trying them on my nova hasn't made me suddenly feel like I'm a powerhouse even with 4 HMG to support them, and it’s a decent tradeoff for an assault with only 130m range. I haven’t had issues playing around the gargoyle, it’s like the Fafnir, respect it’s range, pick at it, and if you let it within sub 200 m… well, it’s supposed to be good there. Haven’t fought a lot of them though, so maybe my experience is skewed!
Overall feedback- Patch has been solid!

No chance of unlocking the double heatsinks on the direwolf so I can try an lbx80 build? shadow cat buffs? no? darn

Thanks for all the work!

Edited by YiffyInAJiffy, 24 April 2021 - 12:47 PM.

[Nightbird]

If you need to nerf AC20+3snPPC, nerf just that. For example link AC20 and SNPPC for ghost heat. Don't nerf other combinations like LBX20+3snPPC unless you intend to do that. Certainly don't nerf snPPC by itself. It's not that great.

Edited by Nightbird, 24 April 2021 - 12:38 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

YiffyInAJiffy, on 24 April 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

No chance of unlocking the double heatsinks on the direwolf so I can try an lbx80 build? shadow cat buffs? no? darn

Going to need the Stone Rhino for that kind of action, Cotton.

[YueFei]

Verilligo, on 24 April 2021 - 10:10 AM, said:

At the range where you're using an AC20, I'm not sure more velocity on the SNPPC will desync the two all that much. With the current velocity it effectively hits instantly at that range. I think splash or reverting the ghost heat limit, albeit with a lower penalty, might be more effective options while not being strong nerfs.

Let's run the numbers:

AC20 velocity: 900 m/s
SNPPC velocity: 1200 m/s

Engagement range: 270 m
AC20 impact in 300 ms. SNPPC impact in 225 ms. Difference of 75 ms.
At 50 kph (13.88 m/s), a difference in impact point of 1.04 meters.
At 75 kph (20.83 m/s), a difference in impact point of 1.56 meters.

Engagement range: 120 m
AC20 impact in 133 ms. SNPPC impact in 100 ms. Difference of 33 ms.
At 50 kph (13.88 m/s), a difference in impact point of 0.458 meters.
At 75 kph (20.83 m/s), a difference in impact point of 0.687 meters.

(I think we can forgo talking about face-hugging range. At face-hugging distance, even SRMs are essentially PPFLD.)

============

Let's hypothetically increase SNPPC velocity to 1800 m/s.

Engagement range: 120 m
AC20 impact in 133 ms. SNPPC impact in 66 ms. Difference of 67 ms.
At 50 kph (13.88 m/s), a difference in impact point of 0.929 meters.
At 75 kph (20.83 m/s), a difference in impact point of 1.395 meters.


Yeah you're probably right, it's very borderline, especially when many of the fatmechs that go ~50kph have torso hitboxes that are 2+ meters wide. I mean, the approach of increased SNPPC velocity might only work by giving SNPPCs ridiculous velocities.

Maybe the approach of increased SNPPC could work after the Great Rescaling is done, when even the fatmechs should get a lot skinnier, but.... for now, I think it isn't viable.

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 24 April 2021 - 12:18 PM, said:

-snip-
Yeah you're probably right, it's very borderline, especially when many of the fatmechs that go ~50kph have torso hitboxes that are 2+ meters wide. I mean, the approach of increased SNPPC velocity might only work by giving SNPPCs ridiculous velocities.

Maybe the approach of increased SNPPC could work after the Great Rescaling is done, when even the fatmechs should get a lot skinnier, but.... for now, I think it isn't viable.

I think it would just be weird for the brawly PPC to have better velocity than the mid-long range PPCs.

This isn't a difficult issue. Just set the Ghost Heat cap back at 2 since only the 3x SNPPC builds seem to be an issue. That's it, that's all we need to do. We don't need to reduce their damage or any other convoluted fix.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 24 April 2021 - 12:21 PM, said:

I think it would just be weird for the brawly PPC to have better velocity than the mid-long range PPCs.

bUt ThAt WoUlD mAtCh ThE hIgH sHoRt RaNgE iN tAbLe ToP

[ThreeStooges]

Can we finally make the JENNER smaller and give it 40-50 arm armor since the pnt-9r has 24-40 arm armor and all the urbies have 35-50 ct armor BEFORE SKILL TREE. Even a lct has more armor by going faster since their stock armor diffrence is only TWO armor. Dam Jenner mech is still the worst in the game and can do nothing better than a 20 tonner except die faster. Also how about actual quirks? None of the Jenners have armor quirks only structure which is useless. -15% missile quirk on the panther is exactly the same on the D.

What can a Jenner do that would make anyone take it over a 20tonner or any other 35 tonner? NOTHING.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 April 2021 - 12:23 PM, said:

bUt ThAt WoUlD mAtCh ThE hIgH sHoRt RaNgE iN tAbLe ToP

I remember that funny argument people made.

If we could somehow make it so the weapon started out with a super high velocity but slowed down as it traveled further, that would accurately simulate the TT short range thing. Just giving it fast velocity at all ranges makes it act more like a pulse laser.

[panzer1b]

Anyways, ive p;ayed quite a bit sofar and here is a quick suggestion from my end on what works and what doesnt:

Very happy that we now have some brawl options on both sides, the smaller lasers are now cool enuff for clam mechs to run, and IS gets some much needed changes to snubs (these are finally a good choice on many mechs and can sync with AC20/LBX20, and they arent OP since they are very short range).

Very happy with the vast majority of laser changes, making both pure vomit and gauss combos actually decent and not purely on super optimized mechs for vomit like hellbringers (which needs to loose its 10% heat quick, its just too damn good with it). HLLs are much better albeit i still hate them personally cause of the burn time and lack of versatility. ERLLs nolonger suck DPS wise to the point that they are fair;ly balanced with PPCs, better DPS to ERPPC, and lighter, but not exactly OP. They are imo the best large laser though due to versatility over the HLL/LL and LPLs which weigh more (or have sucky burntime and just mediocre range). Most of my vomit on both clam and IS is mostly ERLL and ERML combos, since thats my playstyle on that type of build, but its nice to see all lasers get buffs.

Prolly my only complaint is that dakka (with the exception of the 20 class buffs for brawlers) feels a bit anemic nowadays, but its prolly due to much more across the board PPFLD that is more viable (PPCs on IS side, gauss buffs, ect), but at least it still works. That said, i am v ery happy that i nolonger am forced to run dakka on 90% of my assaults to do well in, since other choices have become viable if not superior in many cases. That said, at least there are other choices besides spamming some combo of UAC10+UAC5, as they did make the 2s a tad less crap (they are still weak compared to PPFLD choices like gauss or ppc, but they got a tad better with the jam duration buffs). At least they still wotk though, so not like the MCII-B is dead (albeit i prefer the deathstrike gauss builds alot more now after the lasers nolonger turn every mech into a furnace). Ohh, and the hunch2c is actually insane now with the buffed uac20s...

Anyways, what i do like about this patch is that everything for the most part is way more fun to use, and balance isnt far off from perfect. There are a few things that might need to be buffed to match or toned down, but its like 95% pefect, and hopefully once the mobility buffs get out we will then have a counter to laser vomit which is imo the best loadout right now on medium-heavy class given that its just hard to evade the newly buffed burntimes across the board.

[Alexander of Macedon]

What I came here to say is mostly being said already, looks like.

Namely, the problem with HPPCs is people firing 3 simultaneously -- increase the ghost heat penalty to discourage this.

The problem with SNPPCs is them being used in conjunction with other weapons. 3x SNPPC as a primary or sole armament is in a decent spot right now where it can perform well with a lot of hard work but isn't overpowering. After all, it's ultimately 30 damage pinpoint at close-med range with a decent heat cost. You can get equivalent or better performance out of a wide range of loads.

The more serious issue, IMO, is with micro pulses. ~75% of the damage, heat, and CD of an IS small pulse with the same duration and range for half the tonnage and no ghost heat? When the PIR-2 exists? Because let's be real, this isn't even really a problem with running micro pulse builds, it's a problem with the PIR-2 being able to boat 13-15 of them while running as cold or colder than an IS light running six small pulses. A micro pulse PIR-2 can now do 40% more alpha damage than an IS small pulse light or 25% more than a clan small pulse light while also having markedly higher DPS.

Slap ghost heat back on and problem solved, no need to nerf it for the handful of builds that use them as backup weapons. Leave it off of er micros, they need some compensation for lower damage, longer CD, longer duration, worse heat economy, and general hardpoint inefficiency.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 24 April 2021 - 03:16 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

Nightbird, on 24 April 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

If you need to nerf AC20+3snPPC, nerf just that. For example link AC20 and SNPPC for ghost heat. Don't nerf other combinations like LBX20+3snPPC unless you intend to do that. Certainly don't nerf snPPC by itself. It's not that great.

I agree with this. As much as I don't like grouping dissimilar weapons into a ghost heat group, but the issue here is entirely AC20+3SNPPC and especially 2AC20+3SNPPC, not SNPPC on its own. SNPPC on its own is in a fine spot.