259 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

Alright a lot of ground to cover here.

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 08:43 AM, said:

High/Low skill overlaps. People will debate this of course - however look at Tier 1-3 games vs Tier 3-5. It is completely different. 3min games vs 10min games.

I liked all the other points you made in this post but wanted to share my admittedly anecdotal experience after a few more battles in the lower tiers - I'm finding that for most of my battles the time is now much shorter at 4-5 mins with only a few at 8-10 mins (and that mostly due to large maps like Polar Highlands)

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 08:57 AM, said:

At the same time a 2 LGR mech (if that is all it can fit) should not be gimped.

On it's own I've found 2LGR to be okay, for lower skilled players like me landing shots at extreme range and maintaining a 'sniping' position are trickier. I like that LGR has the excellent range + damage combo as it makes it a more interesting and fun weapon. Hopefully reducing (ER)PPC quirks on heavier mechs with ballistic and energy hardpoints will fix the problem, but if not then a ghost heat penalty would be preferable to a damage or range reduction

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

HPPC - on any mech with -10% heat. You can drop 3 HPPC, 45PPFLD dmg @ 600m and only clock 60% heat. Before the patch it was around 80%. So its a bit ridiculous as on cooldown you can drop it a second time and many, many mechs get deleted from it.

SNPPC - 3 is the issue. Looking into a splash mechanic/distribution. See where it goes.
uPL - on more than the PIR. A few mechs that harcore boat inc MDD. Minor adjustment.
LGR - Quirked mechs going out to 1100m+ is nuts. A few optioins around with quirk redistribution. Again gathering feedback to see.

Again it looks like the real problem is quirks and not the base weapon, please try to avid what PGI have done in the past where they nerf weapons because a few mechs have quirks that make them excessive.

On the boating of 12+ lasers have you considered simply adding a ghost heat penalty for 9 or more small or micro lasers? It's less their ability to do a ton of damage and more their ability to repeat it several times in a row without overheating that's the problem.

RickySpanish, on 24 April 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

Splash for snubs to redistribute some damage would be neat, they do have that shotgun feel to them.

I'd really like to see that too, and maybe even something as crazy as 4 damage and 2x4 splash

Nightbird, on 24 April 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

Or... just bump AC20 heat up a bit and remove GH on it, like people have been asking for years.

Dual Heavy gauss is 50 pinpoint, MRM is 60 damage for just 20 tons. 2 AC20s is not as scary as it was 7 years ago.

I'd like to see a change like this too, dual AC20 should be a build that we see more often than dual HGR

Overall, now that we're a few more matches in and people are settling down with their builds this patch is definitely looking very good.

[Mal Bolge]

Krasnopesky, on 24 April 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

We are giving the Jenner quirks and fixing its weak arms in May patch!

Oh great news! Please tell me you are going to fix the weak arms on the Jager as well. It's been my favorite mech from the start, but after it lost its arm armor, arms are falling off so fast (becasue people know they are weak), and then you are stuck a stick the rest of the match, or 65 tons of 2 medium lasers walking around.

[dario03]

Mal Nilsum, on 25 April 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

Oh great news! Please tell me you are going to fix the weak arms on the Jager as well. It's been my favorite mech from the start, but after it lost its arm armor, arms are falling off so fast (becasue people know they are weak), and then you are stuck a stick the rest of the match, or 65 tons of 2 medium lasers walking around.

Yes, that one is getting fixed too, same patch. I recall shooting its arms off was a common strat even before the change.

Edited by dario03, 25 April 2021 - 01:49 AM.

[Curccu]

x Deathstrike x, on 24 April 2021 - 06:10 AM, said:

Aside from that I can only comment that I see a lot of IS PPCs.
Wouldnt particularly say they are overpowered but really half the team (both sides) uses them.
Also Snubnose in combination with AC20 on e.g. a Warhammer 6R has a 50 PPFLD now.
Yes its very close range but still pretty powerful.

Well I have played half of my game (not that many really) in lights, Either I excel in match or I get pretty much 1 shotted with some gauss/ac/ppc combo.
against bigger mechs that combo is fine, against 20-25 tonners it's 1 shot / halved / lost a leg = dead.

[lazorbeamz]

Guys i d like to ask you to revert the ATM change. ATM really needs to be x3 damage up close that was the whole point of having to meddle with clan tag and lock on mechanics.

Also i think PPC in the last patch are way overtuned and are the best weapon for most situations especially with the light gauss combo. LG kind of overshadows the AC10. Sure it has less dps but the velocity and range seem to compensate for it very well.

50 pinpoint with snub ppc is ofc unacceptable especially if they dont allow 2 x ac20.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 25 April 2021 - 02:18 AM.

[x Deathstrike x]

Curccu, on 25 April 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

Well I have played half of my game (not that many really) in lights, Either I excel in match or I get pretty much 1 shotted with some gauss/ac/ppc combo.
against bigger mechs that combo is fine, against 20-25 tonners it's 1 shot / halved / lost a leg = dead.

Yes I have made the same experience. 3x SPPC is instant death for e.g. a Piranha.
Laser spread damge, PPFLD when it hits you means you're gone.

[kapusta11]

It's been less than a week an you already jump to conclusions? Isn't whatever sate of the balance we're in irrelevant? Mobility revamp, rescale, reworked maps all can drastically change the way the game is played and what weapons are preferred. Most people still nascar and that eliminates a lot of potentially good and competitive builds and favors some that may not have fared well otherwise. Hell, most games are won because they have a group of 4 above average players on one side and have little to do with the actual builds.

My take: hold your horses, especially the nerfs. Don't rally the playerbase against you. If cauldron doesn't want to get booted by PGI it should stick to the established roadmap.

[The Lighthouse]

I already made a very lengthy comment on subreddit so I will be succinct here.

1) HPPC : Greatly increase GH penalty.

2) SNPPC : Increase heat or decrease ghost heat limit if nerf is actually needed. Not a fan of adding randomized splash damage which is already inherently problematic with implementation (see cERPPC)

3) uPL : It's really a single mech causing the biggest issue. No need to repeat what PGI did on KDK-3. This also probably needs more testing other Clan mechs.

4) Light Gauss : I don't see problem here. Most likely problematic in FP but vast majority of people are playing QP. I must remind all of you guys Clans had far stronger long-range pinpoint damage for a very long time.

Now, weapons that need to be on list.

1) Clan ER Medium : A bit strong. Probably revert CD alone probably solves the problem though.

2) IS Streaks : Revert to pre-patch or give it an ability to dumbfire.

3) IS AC20 : So with the issue of ghost heat linkage with SNPPC, my suggestion is give King Crab HSL quirk.

More detailed thought here : https://www.reddit.c...uldron/gvt01we/


Now, what I want to say is that we probably want to wait til quirk patch arrives, but it seems it is way too far distant.

But the issue is, after reading both subreddit and forum, some of the important isseus (like HPPCs and LGauss) stem from quirks so yeah....

Also I believe the ones who got the biggest boost from this patch are.. well, laserboats. People are definitely picking up their Hellbringers once again. However laserboats will be automatically nerfed when the mobility patch arrives.


That makes my ultimate suggestion : WAIT TIL MAY PATCH ARRIVES then we can talk about weapon adjustments.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 25 April 2021 - 03:22 AM.

[MechNexus]

Honestly, apologies if this is a wee bit off topic but I genuinely love what Ash and the cauldron are doing here - Long overdue balance changes that have made the game fun again, but most importantly the fact that you're talking about it with us is the best part. You guys are doing amazing work.

To bring it a bit more on topic, I hope whatever adjustments you make to light gauss don't hurt a single light gauss when used with 2ERPPC - As that combo is basically just 2HPPC but with more range and running a bit cooler at the cost of being heavier (although the lower weight of 2HPPC lets you throw enough heatsinks on to offset the heat difference) so it'd be a bit of a shame to see it get hit with a nerf that was aimed at 2LGR 2ERPPC setups.

[lazorbeamz]

Im actually not looking forward to may mobility changes because it might just make light and medium mechs that relied on cicrling around their opponents obsolete. Assassins arctic wolves etc. Even mechs like SRM Linebacker will suffer so much.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 25 April 2021 - 03:38 AM.

[w0qj]

+1 Agree

I actually did not have time to try out all my favorite mechs with various weapons type layouts yet.
It's still in the very early days after our PST/Gulag/Cauldron patch of 20th-April-2021 !

(For those mechs/layouts that I've tried thus far, all of them were more fun to play with!
Did not try ATM Mad Dog yet... heard these got worse due to ATM nerf...)

The Lighthouse, on 25 April 2021 - 03:21 AM, said:

...That makes my ultimate suggestion : WAIT TIL MAY PATCH ARRIVES then we can talk about weapon adjustments.

Edited by w0qj, 25 April 2021 - 03:56 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

w0qj, on 25 April 2021 - 03:55 AM, said:

Did not try ATM Mad Dog yet... heard these got worse due to ATM nerf...)

ATMs are not worth using right now. The whole point was to use careful positioning to linger in that relatively small bracket between min range and medium range for maximum damage. Now they're almost just cLRMs with no indirect fire pattern.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alexander of Macedon, on 25 April 2021 - 04:23 AM, said:

ATMs are not worth using right now. The whole point was to use careful positioning to linger in that relatively small bracket between min range and medium range for maximum damage. Now they're almost just cLRMs with no indirect fire pattern.

After reading this comment I dropped in an ATM48 Supernova, and let me tell you, it melted assaults just fine. I can't agree that there is a huge problem at this point. If anything it was nice firing them into a group of mechs and not getting the entire swarm eaten by AMS.

[Wid1046]

Overall I'm thrilled with the current patch and am really looking forward to the other upcoming changes (especially making jump jets actually do something).

The one weapon that I've noticed is completely lackluster this patch is the clan heavy medium laser due to the large buffs made to the ER medium laser. While both HMLs and ERMLs had their cooldown and duration decreased, ERMLs also got a 14.5% decrease to their heat. ERMLs were already more common than HMLs before the change and are now far better.

Heavy mediums do more damage per laser, but at double the slots, for a shorter range, require greater face time, and spread more due to their higher duration. HMLs do have a higher alpha by 1 damage at optimal range (40 vs 39 without ghost heat), but it will be more spread out due to their higher duration. Also, since ERMLs have a longer range they will often be doing more damage than the HMLs do to their damage drop off. Due to this HMLs really don't have an advantage in alpha.

Heavy medium lasers need a minor buff to either their damage or heat to make them competitive with ER medium lasers. Going from 10 damage to 10.5 damage would probably be enough to give them a place again. Increasing their HSL by one would also work, but I think that would lead to their alpha being too high when combined with other weapons.

All that said, I think that you should wait until the June patch before making changes to any of the weapons in order to get a firmer grasp on where everything is sitting. Right now no weapons are game breaking, so there is no need to rush.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wid1046, on 25 April 2021 - 06:37 AM, said:

Heavy medium lasers need a minor buff to either their damage or heat to make them competitive with ER medium lasers.

I agree, but I think the HSL should be increased by 1. That's a hot, slot intensive alpha, at close range, that can't be repeated very quickly, so I don't think its going to lead to anything crazy. I'd like to try it.

[w0qj]

+1
Everyone is still experimenting with different layouts, and have not settled in yet!

Wid1046, on 25 April 2021 - 06:37 AM, said:

Overall I'm thrilled with the current patch and am really looking forward to the other upcoming changes (especially making jump jets actually do something).

...I think that you should wait until the June patch before making changes to any of the weapons in order to get a firmer grasp on where everything is sitting. Right now no weapons are game breaking, so there is no need to rush.

[Vincefeld]

Ghost heat is terrible way to balance game. Just put forced 500ms delay where you unable to fire more weapons of same type instead of overheating people to death

With LBX 2 size reduction it gave me idea that same could be done with LBX20 so they can fit with LFE in side torsos.
MORE FUN, More options. More creativity.

[Dogstar]

Vincefeld, on 25 April 2021 - 07:56 AM, said:

Ghost heat is terrible way to balance game. Just put forced 500ms delay where you unable to fire more weapons of same type instead of overheating people to death

With LBX 2 size reduction it gave me idea that same could be done with LBX20 so they can fit with LFE in side torsos.
MORE FUN, More options. More creativity.

While I agree with you (in some ways, although I'd implement it differently) I suspect that the problem lies in that ghost heat limits and penalties are something that can be changed without requiring any software changes where as suggestions like yours require PGI to actually get someone to write code, which is something they have been monumentally reluctant to do.

[Gitstompa]

I'm only going to speak of the micros right now but I think they'll be fine at current values once rescale and mobility is in. When targets are smaller and can react little better to fast boated micros I don't think they'll be much of an issue.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 April 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

After reading this comment I dropped in an ATM48 Supernova, and let me tell you, it melted assaults just fine. I can't agree that there is a huge problem at this point. If anything it was nice firing them into a group of mechs and not getting the entire swarm eaten by AMS.

Almost any weapon can melt when boated by assaults TBH. I'm looking more at traditional heavy/medium ATM platforms like the Mad Dog and Hunchback IIC that are running something like ATM18.

ATM effectiveness does not have a linear scale in line with number of tubes, especially with the proliferation of AMS in the past few months. That's the whole reason that the missile health buff was larger for smaller launchers, but it didn't go far enough towards leveling the field. High tube counts are always going to get more missiles through, and dropping the per-missile damage will always disproportionately affect lower tube counts.

The principal advantage of using mediums and fast heavies with ATMs was using their mobility to stay in the ideal range. The advantage of assaults was larger tube count. Lowering short-range and increasing long-range damage makes assaults stronger and mediums/heavies weaker. Increasing missile health does more for assaults since the cumulative total health of a volley is increased more with higher tube counts -- ATM48 (assuming 4x ATM12) gains 9.6 total volley health while ATM18 (assuming 2x ATM9) only gains 5.4 total volley health. Thus, AMS becomes proportionately more effective against smaller launchers at the same time that the use case for those launchers is nerfed.