259 replies to this topic

[MrTBSC]

LGR will definitively need the HSL relation with PPCs back

even with just standart PPC which on their own got a HSL 3 it would be better than other direkt fireoptions ... as you could theoretically put up 3 stantard PPCs + 2 LGR for 50 Pinpoint Alpha up to 600/700m (correct me if wrong) ...

so it should be 2 PPC/ERPPC + 1 LGR or 1 PPC/ERPPC + 2 LGR, OR 2 LPPC (MAYBE 3) + 2 LGR and 4 LPPC+1 LGR ... otherwise heatpenalty ...

Edited by MrTBSC, 26 April 2021 - 02:38 AM.

[MechNexus]

I honestly can't see how LGR+2ERPPC is in any way an oppressive combo. You've been able to do twin standard gauss forever on both sides, and that's got the same(ish) range and same damage but kicks out basically no heat - at the cost of being heavier and firing slower. 30 damage pinpoint at 800m+ isn't new.

[John Bronco]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:26 PM, said:

It's a 2x AC20 upwards 900ms with little shot deviation. It's going to be incredibly oppressive in coordinated play and on massive open area maps.

Yet in your own thread you state:

"In fact I like the ability to mix LGRs and ERPPCs together, it's the return of Gauss-PPC that isn't cancerous."

Make up your mind.

[Krasnopesky]

Dogstar, on 25 April 2021 - 01:25 AM, said:

Alright a lot of ground to cover here.

I liked all the other points you made in this post but wanted to share my admittedly anecdotal experience after a few more battles in the lower tiers - I'm finding that for most of my battles the time is now much shorter at 4-5 mins with only a few at 8-10 mins (and that mostly due to large maps like Polar Highlands)

On it's own I've found 2LGR to be okay, for lower skilled players like me landing shots at extreme range and maintaining a 'sniping' position are trickier. I like that LGR has the excellent range + damage combo as it makes it a more interesting and fun weapon. Hopefully reducing (ER)PPC quirks on heavier mechs with ballistic and energy hardpoints will fix the problem, but if not then a ghost heat penalty would be preferable to a damage or range reduction

Again it looks like the real problem is quirks and not the base weapon, please try to avid what PGI have done in the past where they nerf weapons because a few mechs have quirks that make them excessive.

On the boating of 12+ lasers have you considered simply adding a ghost heat penalty for 9 or more small or micro lasers? It's less their ability to do a ton of damage and more their ability to repeat it several times in a row without overheating that's the problem.

I'd really like to see that too, and maybe even something as crazy as 4 damage and 2x4 splash


I'd like to see a change like this too, dual AC20 should be a build that we see more often than dual HGR

Overall, now that we're a few more matches in and people are settling down with their builds this patch is definitely looking very good.

I have a small bit of information from PGI in regards to match times: Since the April patch match times have reduced by 4.1%. That is excellent news, as after the May and the June patches we will easily see an overall increase in match time.

I agree that a lot of the problem is overquirked Mechs, this was to be expected. We balanced the weapons considering zero offensive quirks on purpose to give us more flexibility when approaching quirks. This will allow us to reduce some offensive quirks, particularly quirks like 10% heat and 10% range (as we did with the Awesome and Black Jack in April patch), which we will look at doing for select Mechs. At the same time we will be looking at putting in more defensive quirks for Mechs that need it and giving underperforming Mechs some unique and interesting quirks to help them have a use.

Those quirk changes in conjunction with the mobility pass (increasing the mobility of a lot of Mechs) will make Mechs a lot more survivable and increase match time as a result.

[lazorbeamz]

I think that the whole SNUB/PPC + AC + lgauus thing is way way overdone and reduces the gameplay to brainless one click "weapon management". Its too easy and too effective. I hope they do allow 2 ac 20 if thats the way it is supposed to be.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 26 April 2021 - 06:25 AM.

[Dogstar]

Krasnopesky, on 26 April 2021 - 05:22 AM, said:

I have a small bit of information from PGI in regards to match times: Since the April patch match times have reduced by 4.1%. That is excellent news, as after the May and the June patches we will easily see an overall increase in match time.

I agree that a lot of the problem is overquirked Mechs, this was to be expected. We balanced the weapons considering zero offensive quirks on purpose to give us more flexibility when approaching quirks. This will allow us to reduce some offensive quirks, particularly quirks like 10% heat and 10% range (as we did with the Awesome and Black Jack in April patch), which we will look at doing for select Mechs. At the same time we will be looking at putting in more defensive quirks for Mechs that need it and giving underperforming Mechs some unique and interesting quirks to help them have a use.

Those quirk changes in conjunction with the mobility pass (increasing the mobility of a lot of Mechs) will make Mechs a lot more survivable and increase match time as a result.

Excellent, that's all really good news and I'm glad to see that my anecdotal feelings aren't what's actually happening.

[The6thMessenger]

John Bronco, on 26 April 2021 - 05:06 AM, said:

Yet in your own thread you state:

"In fact I like the ability to mix LGRs and ERPPCs together, it's the return of Gauss-PPC that isn't cancerous."

Make up your mind.

I don't see how that could be contradictory.

The previous Gauss-PPC that which delivered 50 PPFLD, + 10 splash to clans, worked regardless of context -- that was cancerous. The 40 PPFLD of IS with weapon specifically tuned for long range, means it loses out on closer ranges, which is fair. It's only oppressive in a specific setup.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 April 2021 - 06:40 AM.

[Nightbird]

Krasnopesky, on 26 April 2021 - 05:22 AM, said:

I have a small bit of information from PGI in regards to match times: Since the April patch match times have reduced by 4.1%. That is excellent news, as after the May and the June patches we will easily see an overall increase in match time.

Actually this is bad news, since builds are still being experimented on. In 2 weeks I think you'll see 10+% decrease if we're at 4% already.

Also a 4% decrease in match time can easily mean a 12% decrease in TTK since people spend more time moving than shooting.

[Wid1046]

Wid1046, on 25 April 2021 - 06:37 AM, said:

Overall I'm thrilled with the current patch and am really looking forward to the other upcoming changes (especially making jump jets actually do something).

The one weapon that I've noticed is completely lackluster this patch is the clan heavy medium laser due to the large buffs made to the ER medium laser. While both HMLs and ERMLs had their cooldown and duration decreased, ERMLs also got a 14.5% decrease to their heat. ERMLs were already more common than HMLs before the change and are now far better.

Heavy mediums do more damage per laser, but at double the slots, for a shorter range, require greater face time, and spread more due to their higher duration. HMLs do have a higher alpha by 1 damage at optimal range (40 vs 39 without ghost heat), but it will be more spread out due to their higher duration. Also, since ERMLs have a longer range they will often be doing more damage than the HMLs do to their damage drop off. Due to this HMLs really don't have an advantage in alpha.

Heavy medium lasers need a minor buff to either their damage or heat to make them competitive with ER medium lasers. Going from 10 damage to 10.5 damage would probably be enough to give them a place again. Increasing their HSL by one would also work, but I think that would lead to their alpha being too high when combined with other weapons.

All that said, I think that you should wait until the June patch before making changes to any of the weapons in order to get a firmer grasp on where everything is sitting. Right now no weapons are game breaking, so there is no need to rush.

Bumping my own comment to ask what the consensus with the Cauldron is on HMLs. Do you agree that they'll need a minor buff to compete with ERMLs or are they sitting where you want?

I still think that no weapons should be changed until after the mobility patch to allow time for everything to settle, but it's good that you're all keeping eyes on everything.

[Dogstar]

Nightbird, on 26 April 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

Actually this is bad news, since builds are still being experimented on. In 2 weeks I think you'll see 10+% decrease if we're at 4% already.

Also a 4% decrease in match time can easily mean a 12% decrease in TTK since people spend more time moving than shooting.

One thing I noticed in a few matches was people 'taking a break' during battles, by which I mean both sides stepped back a bit and waited either for a chance to assess the situation or for the other side to charge in. It's rare to see anything resembling thought in my tier so that was quite interesting. It seems that increasing damage may have made people slightly more cautious.

[Anomalocaris]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 25 April 2021 - 12:39 PM, said:

I just reinstalled the game and had a few matches. I'm very pleased with the patch so far,
but on the ATMS, I'm with you. they're rather 'meh' right now and very boring to play;
I preferred the risk/reward approach of the 3/2/1 dmg/range.

I pointed this out before the patch. I hope the Cauldron will reconsider it. There used to be a huge benefit in pushing in with ATMs. 50% more damage (3 vs. 2) once you got into the sweetspot. Now it's 25% more damage. And the increased missile health means that pushing in also returns less benefit in terms of AMS resistance than it did before. There is a lot less incentive to play aggressive.

As Alexander pointed out, the changes really punish small tube count builds when the problem was the large tube count setups. My proposal before the 4/20 patch was to leave the damage alone (and keep some of the missile health buffs since other missiles got it to counter the AMS buffs), but dramatically increase ghost heat when firing more than 2 ATM12s. The Veagle3 has no problem eating the heat on a 3xATM12 setup alpha and that shouldn't be the case. Increasing heat in general would be fair too on the 9s and 12s.

Edited by Anomalocaris, 26 April 2021 - 07:20 AM.

[Krasnopesky]

Nightbird, on 26 April 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

Actually this is bad news, since builds are still being experimented on. In 2 weeks I think you'll see 10+% decrease if we're at 4% already.

Also a 4% decrease in match time can easily mean a 12% decrease in TTK since people spend more time moving than shooting.

Even 10% wouldn't be an issue, as every planned patch from now on will increase TTK and match time (mobility, quirks, rescale). We will of course have to wait and see where everything settles.

I will also note that the timeframes taken for this match time data were the same; First 48 hours after the patch of April and first 48 hours after the March patch. The March patch early on didn't change the previous average match time. Of course this is a very small portion of data PGI have shown us, as we progress we will get more reliable data (provided PGI share it with us of course).

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 26 April 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

Actually this is bad news, since builds are still being experimented on. In 2 weeks I think you'll see 10+% decrease if we're at 4% already.

Also a 4% decrease in match time can easily mean a 12% decrease in TTK since people spend more time moving than shooting.

While that may be true, on the receiving end people are also still adapting to the new level of firepower on the field so there should be some modification of playstyle that will also increase match times after a while.

[YueFei]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2021 - 08:21 AM, said:

While that may be true, on the receiving end people are also still adapting to the new level of firepower on the field so there should be some modification of playstyle that will also increase match times after a while.

These days I run around scared of everything on the field. And I love it. It feels like if I'm a little too slow on the uptake, I get punished badly for it. That's the way it should be.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2021 - 08:21 AM, said:

While that may be true, on the receiving end people are also still adapting to the new level of firepower on the field so there should be some modification of playstyle that will also increase match times after a while.

We're just using TTK as a proxy for player enjoyment/happiness. Hiding more in a match is unlikely to increase it for most players. We'll see retention data at the end of this month and more importantly next month and that is more solid anyways, now it's just speculation.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 26 April 2021 - 08:33 AM, said:

We're just using TTK as a proxy for player enjoyment/happiness. Hiding more in a match is unlikely to increase it for most players. We'll see retention data at the end of this month and more importantly next month and that is more solid anyways, now it's just speculation.

Well, my hope is that the defacto strategy in quick play moves away from zerg rush in circles, which will automatically increase match times. Shooting mechs is fun, endlessly chasing your own tail is not. It's much more rewarding to try to outposition the other team than to run and dump as much DPS as possible until you die.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2021 - 09:00 AM, said:

Well, my hope is that the defacto strategy in quick play moves away from zerg rush in circles, which will automatically increase match times. Shooting mechs is fun, endlessly chasing your own tail is not. It's much more rewarding to try to outposition the other team than to run and dump as much DPS as possible until you die.

I share this sentiment, I get my non-Nascar gameplay in FP for a reason. However, my opinion is that people who prefer the trading and positioning playstyle is the vast minority of the population. The majority prefer standing in the open and shooting ineffective weapons at each other, and if forced to do otherwise will become disgruntled. We'll see.

Edited by Nightbird, 26 April 2021 - 09:09 AM.

[Krasnopesky]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2021 - 09:00 AM, said:

Well, my hope is that the defacto strategy in quick play moves away from zerg rush in circles, which will automatically increase match times. Shooting mechs is fun, endlessly chasing your own tail is not. It's much more rewarding to try to outposition the other team than to run and dump as much DPS as possible until you die.

NASCAR is an incredibly annoying phenomenon indeed. Hopefully the map work PGI are doing moves towards reducing NASCAR as well.

[pbiggz]

Gas Guzzler, on 26 April 2021 - 09:00 AM, said:

Well, my hope is that the defacto strategy in quick play moves away from zerg rush in circles, which will automatically increase match times. Shooting mechs is fun, endlessly chasing your own tail is not. It's much more rewarding to try to outposition the other team than to run and dump as much DPS as possible until you die.

You can do an end run around nascarring by mixing up spawn points (different sets of spawn points each match, perhaps pulling from a canned set of a few) and by bringing drop decks into quickplay. Respawns mean people are alot less scared to die, and one death, be it a lucky shot or a mistake, isn't a colossal win for one team and a death sentence for the other.

Alot of degenerate behaviour in this game stems from us not having things that other games just take for granted.

[Dogstar]

Going back tot he (L)GR+ERPPC issue - I thought of another way to reduce the issue.

If I recall correctly ERPPCs have a much higher velocity than standard PPCs (1900 vs 1400 with the new patch) and that tallies nicely with the LGR and GR velocity of 2200 which is one feature that encourages big PPFLD with these weapon combinations.

If ERPPC velocity were lowered a bit to say 1600m/s then the synergy between them and gauss rifles would be reduced and players would have to work harder to get those big PPFLD hits.

That might be better than using heat limit penalties and it would also make those annoying ERPPC poptarts slightly harder to use as well.

This is assuming, of course, that most of the (er)ppc velocity quirks will be massively reduced in the next patch.

What do you think?

Edited by Dogstar, 27 April 2021 - 02:07 AM.