259 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Dogstar, on 27 April 2021 - 02:05 AM, said:

Going back tot he (L)GR+ERPPC issue - I thought of another way to reduce the issue.

If I recall correctly ERPPCs have a much higher velocity than standard PPCs (1900 vs 1400 with the new patch) and that tallies nicely with the LGR and GR velocity of 2200 which is one feature that encourages big PPFLD with these weapon combinations.

If ERPPC velocity were lowered a bit to say 1600m/s then the synergy between them and gauss rifles would be reduced and players would have to work harder to get those big PPFLD hits.

That might be better than using heat limit penalties and it would also make those annoying ERPPC poptarts slightly harder to use as well.

This is assuming, of course, that most of the (er)ppc velocity quirks will be massively reduced in the next patch.

What do you think?

That would make the ERPPC into a crap weapon when not paired with LGR. It needs that velocity to do its job.

[MrTBSC]

MechNexus, on 26 April 2021 - 04:52 AM, said:

I honestly can't see how LGR+2ERPPC is in any way an oppressive combo. You've been able to do twin standard gauss forever on both sides, and that's got the same(ish) range and same damage but kicks out basically no heat - at the cost of being heavier and firing slower. 30 damage pinpoint at 800m+ isn't new.

dual standart gauss on its own is 30 PP-dmg, dual erppc+ dual LGR goes up to 40, take 3 standart ppcs + dual LGR that goes to 50 pinpoint even at a reduced optimal range this is not insignificant damage and other similarly ranged weapons are only able to bring that dmg over time with a higher likelyhood spreading said damage or require to be closer for higher risk of returnfire ..

[Dogstar]

FupDup, on 27 April 2021 - 02:47 AM, said:

That would make the ERPPC into a crap weapon when not paired with LGR. It needs that velocity to do its job.

So surely you're implying that ordinary PPCs are crap? Because they have a lot slower velocity even with the latest patch. So it seems to me that ERPPCS could manage okay with a bit of a velocity reduction.

If not do you have a better suggestion to reduce the effectiveness of gauss+ppc boats? Because right now no heat penalties, extreme range, and synergising velocities appears to be an overly optimal choice.

Edited by Dogstar, 27 April 2021 - 07:48 AM.

[Krasnopesky]

MrTBSC, on 27 April 2021 - 06:46 AM, said:

dual standart gauss on its own is 30 PP-dmg, dual erppc+ dual LGR goes up to 40, take 3 standart ppcs + dual LGR that goes to 50 pinpoint even at a reduced optimal range this is not insignificant damage and other similarly ranged weapons are only able to bring that dmg over time with a higher likelyhood spreading said damage or require to be closer for higher risk of returnfire ..

3 PPC + 2 LGR is 45 tonnes of weaponry not even accounting for the heatsinks and ammo required. Regular PPCs are also a mid range weapon and have quite a large difference in velocity compared to LGR.

If you're in optimal range to fire standard IS PPCs you can receive a lot damage back from Mechs that is higher than 50. UAC boats, laservomit, Gauss vomit, HPPC + Ballistics can all do comparable amounts of damage and have existed in the game well before the patch.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah. Not only that, the 2200 m/s to 1400 m/s velocity disparity means that it really isn't pin point.

[The Lighthouse]

The6thMessenger, on 26 April 2021 - 06:37 AM, said:

I don't see how that could be contradictory.

The previous Gauss-PPC that which delivered 50 PPFLD, + 10 splash to clans, worked regardless of context -- that was cancerous. The 40 PPFLD of IS with weapon specifically tuned for long range, means it loses out on closer ranges, which is fair. It's only oppressive in a specific setup.

It was cancerous, and it was... well, fun

I still remember Panzer running his Night Gyr with that build by pretty much trimming all armors from the mech.

[FupDup]

Dogstar, on 27 April 2021 - 07:45 AM, said:

So surely you're implying that ordinary PPCs are crap? Because they have a lot slower velocity even with the latest patch. So it seems to me that ERPPCS could manage okay with a bit of a velocity reduction.

If not do you have a better suggestion to reduce the effectiveness of gauss+ppc boats? Because right now no heat penalties, extreme range, and synergising velocities appears to be an overly optimal choice.

Regular PPCs have much lower heat and are expected to operate at much shorter ranges. In general, higher velocity is needed for longer ranges.

I think the easiest and probably best approach would be to just re-link LGR with PPCs so that the weapons aren't individually punished for their ability to combine together.

Also, to be honest the regular PPC is kind of redundant right now (viable and usable, but not really special) because it doesn't have a strong niche like the other PPC types do.

Edited by FupDup, 27 April 2021 - 01:16 PM.

[Fishtiddies]

Eh at first the changes felt fresh and exciting, but as long as the meta is nascar this game is just the same ol ******** with a different wrapper. Ill see how it works out in a couple months but for now the game is still barely tolerable and i look for more than that in a game.

[Sunstruck]

Snub PPCs and PPCs in general that received an extra heat scale I feel need to be rolled back to their original ghost heat numbers. Also, someone mentioned that we have 2xAC20 3 ppc builds, with 70 pinpoint alpha, but yet we can only have two gauss and one ppc ect, for a 40 max pin point.

I think its worth while considering discouraging high pin point alphas as a rule of thumb.

I'm not sure how heavy ppcs were changed with the patch, but they seemed to be ok / in a good spot before it.

I'm eagerly awaiting the rescale.

Thats my feedback.

[Dogstar]

FupDup, on 27 April 2021 - 01:14 PM, said:

Also, to be honest the regular PPC is kind of redundant right now (viable and usable, but not really special) because it doesn't have a strong niche like the other PPC types do.

Yeah the regular PPC could do with some small improvement. I remember from my tabletop days how it was the scariest weapon around, lots of damage, great range, and lighter than an ac. I'd like to see PPCs be a little bit more scary, it's just a problem that if they get buffed they end up boated to excess or combo'd in op ways.

I think that ghost heat penalties may be the only way to fix that.

Edited by Dogstar, 28 April 2021 - 01:43 AM.

[x Deathstrike x]

So I played Snub Nose / AC20 myself just a bit lately on a Fafnir. In particular, 3xSNPPC, 2xAC20.
Of course, the build is hot but when you hit (damaged) stuff more than once it literally was a one shot.
3xSNPPC+AC20 I see being run on many mechs, such as Warhammer, Thanatos, King Crab, ...
People also get creative and run 3xSNPPC+AC10 on a Dragon Fang for example.
What I said in my first post all these SNPPC combos feel pretty strong but I wouldnt say overpowered.

However, what feels a bit awkward is that IS now how various ways to have 30+ PPFLD builds reaching up to 70
while clans have at best 40 with 4xCAC5+2xCERPPC.
Especially for PPC there are now three options (3xPPC, 3xSNPPC, 2xHPPC) for 30 energy PPFLD but clan still have their ERPPC splash.
What I read is that SNPPC should get some splash too perhaps that will relax the situation a bit.
Originally the 30 PPFLD was reserved for 2xHPPC and considering the tonnage and heat investment this was totally justified.
Since 3xPPC has even more tonnage/slot/heat investment those should be ok too.

I dont call for nerfing things, just that I find it a bit awkward right now.
The only question I have is if IS PPCs stay as they are what's the reason for keeping (high) splash on CERPPC?

Edited by x Deathstrike x, 28 April 2021 - 02:50 AM.

[Wid1046]

Fishtiddies, on 27 April 2021 - 10:18 PM, said:

Eh at first the changes felt fresh and exciting, but as long as the meta is nascar this game is just the same ol ******** with a different wrapper. Ill see how it works out in a couple months but for now the game is still barely tolerable and i look for more than that in a game.

The new level designer is looking at ways to discourage nascar amongst other fixes. I've only heard good things about him from Phil, the Cauldron and Daeron. The Cauldron have spoken with him directly and we've heard from them that he actually plays MWO and was familiar with the problems (spawn placements, specific areas that need ramps or bridges etc.), so that brings some hope that the maps will be fixed and that the fixes won't cause additional problems.

[M5000]

I'm a bit late to the party but I've had a bit of time to go through some of the more used weapon systems and get a feel for how they are doing, as well as notice a few other things in game. Have read that a single post with all my thoughts is better than going on for multiple posts in a discussion so I'm trying to go by that. Apologies if I'm repeating a couple previous talking points, I haven't read through the rest of the thread plus I want to make sure anything in my head makes it out there and Cauldron can tally it up as "another player who thinks X" or however they're doing it.

So first I'll gloss over the weapon changes that are in the patch piece by piece, then I have some general and miscellaneous thoughts, I will of course be refraining from commenting on anything that the Cauldron has no actual control over (map design, spawn points, other patch changes) and want to focus my efforts on providing actual weapon and equipment balance feedback.

Micro Lasers
These are now a strong weapon and super fun to boat on clan mechs like the Gargoyle, Nova, etc. We have seen a resurgence of the energy Piranhas as a formidable foe now, which is great. I personally don't think they're overpowered for the average player, but I also could understand why some people might want them dialed back a bit. The HSL unlock is the best part of these and gives them a niche that is rather small (how many mechs can boat more than 12 lasers, like, 5?) but is useful and unique. I think the damage and cooldown is good, and if a nerf were approached that it should be on the basis of a slight range reduction and slight heat increase, or possibly only one of the two. I think they might run a bit cool right now.
Most of the above opinion applies to micro pulse, I have not done much play with ERMicros yet but I imagine I'd feel roughly the same.

Small Lasers
I have not seen any particular problems with these. I don't have a ton of mechs that use these, and haven't gotten around to a real proper test either, however, I haven't seen these as an overwhelmingly popular and threatening presence on the battlefield so they may be getting eclipsed by the micro pulses, or they could be balanced perfectly, now, or both.

Heavy Lasers General
Duration reduction on all the heavy type lasers has been welcomed. No real thoughts on these, same as small lasers, not overpoweringly common but you do see them now.

Medium Pulse
Clan MPLS is better than it used to be and the change is welcome. I haven't seen as much IS MPL spam, such things are now taken over by snub PPC or other PPFLD type weapons. The builds seem to be around but are much less prevalent.

IS Large Laser
Love the HSL increase on these. This opens up a couple options now and while the DPS is lower than 3LPL, the burst is nice for 1 less ton if you can spare the hardpoints.

Large Pulse
General large pulse is much more viable now, welcome change.

No other thoughts on lasers in general, no other points seem to stick out to me.

Light PPC
These are finally a viable weapon. Perhaps a further cooldown reduction could be considered aiding to their "light" nature.

Snub PPC
OP pls nerf. Real answer: Snubs are powerful now, and 3 of them can be like an energy AC20 replacement. I'd like to see a damage reduction, though. The heat is good though.

Heavy PPC
I don't see these as much of a problem as the snubs.

I have no other thoughts worth mentioning on other PPC changes.

General Clan ACs
The shell reduction is really nice, especially with Clan AC5s now only being a single shell. Very welcome change.

IS AC20
I like the velocity increases and heat reduction. Really nice and feels good to play.

LBX2
Slot size decrease is welcome.

C-UAC2
These are amazing and have replaced LBX2s on my 8X2 Dire Wolf. The heat is just enough on that build to be something to be aware of but it's not crippling and allows it to do some amazing things. These should be left entirely alone as they are, IMO. Honestly one of the best changes in this patch.

LBX5
I am not seeing these brought as much, I personally still do not feel compelled to bring LBX5 in most situations. I feel like they could use some more help somehow. Perhaps a cooldown reduction or slot+tonnage reduction would be useful. Right now I still see no point to use these over AC5 weapons.

RAC5
Okay I lied, this is my favorite change in the patch so far. So many RAC5s out there now. They're out performing (not outperforming) like they should be. By the numbers, my RAC5 Marauder is substantially more competitive in close range than the RAC2 version of the build, which is how it should be. The RAC2s take over in sustained DPS at range but the heat on the dual RAC5 is actually much more manageable than it used to be. Considering dropping heatsinks out of previous builds. Very welcome change, love it, IMO these don't need touched at all they're riding right on that line between sub-optimal and OP.

I have no other Autocannon thoughts worth noting.

Light Gauss
Strong weapon, a slight nerf would be good but leave the cooldown as this in my opinion gives them their niche as "the gauss DPS weapon" - I like that you can stick two of them in a torso, still fit a light engine, and they do between the damage of a single regular and a single heavy gauss but with better range and much more tonnage.

I have no other Gauss weapon thoughts worth noting.

I have no thoughts on the MG changes in general. They seem fine.

MRM Changes
MRM10s are amazing now. Thank you for this. It has shifted from "your MRM10 will get eaten by that Corsair" to "if you have the tonnage and hardpoints to not end up undergunned, go MRM10 spam over the larger launchers" as it should be, in my opinion. They still are less damage than SRM6 but do fill the niche well.

ATM Changes
I am not seeing ATMs as prevalent as before, but they are still present meaning that I would assume they are now balanced roughly correctly. I have not brought out any of my ATM boats to test these changes, these are merely observational.

I have no other missile thoughts worth noting.

MASC
Welcome change, MASC is perfect now as it is.

AMS
All welcome change, I am seeing more AMS meaning LRM play is less reliable, which is welcome.

CASE
Nice change. Still not bringing CASE on every mech on the IS side but there are some situations where I've slotted it in when I had free slots.

Consumables
I like the new strikes the duration seems to be OK and are a bit less crippling.

General Gameplay Thoughts
Unfortunately this is where I must complain a bit. We knew the TTK was going to go down as a result of this patch, but I feel like matches, especially in higher tiers are over much much quicker and I can barely get any damage out. I also find my general damage seems to be lower. I'm not sure if this is just a fluke of the new metas settling in or what but the matches have been not the greatest since the patch. I also think the stomp rate has gone WAY up. It seems almost every battle is completely one sided, with very few "nail biter" matches happening anymore.

That said, I'll hold out and trust the plan for the rest of the changes before losing all hope. This patch has been fun to play even despite the above, the weapons do feel better, now the mechs just crumble way too easily, so they'll need attention next.

Possible Unintended Changes
Today, on HPG, I observed two red smoke plumes generating at the same time. Was strike cooldown supposed to change this patch? It felt like the first few minutes of the game were absolutely nothing but strikes, constantly. The next games I had felt the same. Not sure how to prove this but I think there may need to be some investigation into strike cooldown. Maybe I'm crazy but something sure felt off and I've been playing this game for a very long time.

Other than that, that's about all I have, it's been fun trying to figure new stuff out, thanks for all the hard work to all the Cauldron members, really. There's a lot of numbers to run and science to be done with all these changes. Overall the patch has been positive, we knew TTK was going to go down with this patch, and it did, which gives me confidence that the Cauldron knows what they are doing with these changes. Hoping that any subsequent patches will raise TTK again, which I believe is the intention so I trust it will be so.

-M5

[meteorol]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:

We are looking at the following weapons that have already become clear candidates for adjustments as they are over-performing in various ways:

• SNPPC

• Are there any comments about the above weapons? The "discussing" part we are still working on ideas so hold out there please - we are aware of various proposals and issues.

Just make SNPPC deal something like 7+1.5+1.5. Mitigates concerns about too much pp and gives the weapon a unique flavour within the PPC family.

FupDup, on 27 April 2021 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think the easiest and probably best approach would be to just re-link LGR with PPCs so that the weapons aren't individually punished for their ability to combine together.

Are you referring to regular PPCs or ER or both here?

Regular PPCs absolutely don't need to be re-linked with LGR. The considerable difference in velocity and range, and the regular PPC min range are enough to balance the LGR/regular PPC combo.

If anything, re-link could be considered for ER PPCs.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeah splash it the plan for SNPPC - so all good there.

[MrTBSC]

Krasnopesky, on 27 April 2021 - 07:52 AM, said:

3 PPC + 2 LGR is 45 tonnes of weaponry not even accounting for the heatsinks and ammo required. Regular PPCs are also a mid range weapon and have quite a large difference in velocity compared to LGR.

If you're in optimal range to fire standard IS PPCs you can receive a lot damage back from Mechs that is higher than 50. UAC boats, laservomit, Gauss vomit, HPPC + Ballistics can all do comparable amounts of damage and have existed in the game well before the patch.

the point is this weaponcombination is still more pinpoint effective vs other builds that while they may go for higher damage or dps they more likely will spread it all over a target and/or you have to consider HSL in some way

take the annihilator to theoreticaly put a quad AC10 build on, you would still have to doubletap the weapons in pairs unless you are willing to run into ghostheat,

LL boating is DoT anyway and anything that goes from LL5 to LL8 (the latter one possible with a battlemaster) will run into ghostheat and kill yourself at worst on a alphastrike ... now with ERLLs you can forget dealing 40 or more damage without firing in pairs or getting a significant heatspike ... and that weapon is supposed to be a direct mid to longrangeoption

Fafnir 5E or Marauder 2 MRM 120 is splash as well as DoT and its optimal range is its max range as well .. and again needs to be fired in pairs of 2x30 MRMs, otherwise massive heatspike

now granted anything paired with a gauss or Lgausspair will run into the issue of the gausscarge and may not sync up well with the velocity values of the different weapons but still with a bit of practice you will land that 40 to 50 Pinpoint alpha consistenlty enough to matter.
you already have a initiative advantage simply having the Lightgauss pair, and most importantly even though PPCs may generate a lot of heat you won´t have to worry about ghostheat on your alphastrike ..

your HPPC+B example such as dual HPPC+Dual ac 10  while also a Pinpoint build and likely better for that range is also still a pure midrange build ...

Gas Guzzler, on 27 April 2021 - 08:18 AM, said:

Yeah.  Not only that, the 2200 m/s to 1400 m/s velocity disparity means that it really isn't pin point.

no, it is ... each weapon delivers its full damage in one projektile, if yout target happens to stand still he gets the full salvo on the one component you aimed at and that is more likely to happen with this build than any other non single-projectile-weapons build ...

Edited by MrTBSC, 29 April 2021 - 12:05 PM.

[MrTBSC]

x Deathstrike x, on 28 April 2021 - 02:44 AM, said:

So I played Snub Nose / AC20 myself just a bit lately on a Fafnir. In particular, 3xSNPPC, 2xAC20.
Of course, the build is hot but when you hit (damaged) stuff more than once it literally was a one shot.
3xSNPPC+AC20 I see being run on many mechs, such as Warhammer, Thanatos, King Crab, ...
People also get creative and run 3xSNPPC+AC10 on a Dragon Fang for example.
What I said in my first post all these SNPPC combos feel pretty strong but I wouldnt say overpowered.

However, what feels a bit awkward is that IS now how various ways to have 30+ PPFLD builds reaching up to 70
while clans have at best 40 with 4xCAC5+2xCERPPC.
Especially for PPC there are now three options (3xPPC, 3xSNPPC, 2xHPPC) for 30 energy PPFLD but clan still have their ERPPC splash.
What I read is that SNPPC should get some splash too perhaps that will relax the situation a bit.
Originally the 30 PPFLD was reserved for 2xHPPC and considering the tonnage and heat investment this was totally justified.
Since 3xPPC has even more tonnage/slot/heat investment those should be ok too.

I dont call for nerfing things, just that I find it a bit awkward right now.
The only question I have is if IS PPCs stay as they are what's the reason for keeping (high) splash on CERPPC?

the thing about that dual AC 20 + triple snubnose build though is it requires to almost be in butttouching range AND with 2 AC 20s generates ghostheat

now on clan you may not have many Pinpoint single-projectile weapons, but have you ever run a triple UAC20 direwulf (+ quad erml as backup)? ... yes it´s DoT, yes alphastriking is suicide without achiving the tiniest bit of damage .. but i ran it just once on polar highlands (a very unfavorable Map for such build) and casualy managed 700 to 800 dmg by chainfire doubletapping .. there are of course more effective builds but what CLAN may lack in upfront damage they have in consistent dps over range compared to IS builds that while have high damage come with range disadvantages or some other form of disadvantage, such as higher tonnagerequiremeants or being more vulnerable ..

Edited by MrTBSC, 29 April 2021 - 10:23 AM.

[Clay Endfield]

My thoughts on this:

IS AC-20: If asking for +1 HSL is too much, could we get a severely reduced Heat Penalty? Like a 1.5x heat penalty for firing 2 AC20s? Raising the heat gen and increasing the HSL punishes mechs that can only run a single AC-20; altering the ghost heat penalty should achieve the same effect without gimping Cataphract, Roughnecks, and Orions.

Light Gauss + ER PPC: If these are OP in faction play (because of range/range quirk interaction), but niche in quickplay, then maybe the issue is Faction Play, not the weapons or Range quirks. A handful of players play Faction, compared to the amount of players who play QP. Serving the interests of the minority over the interests of the majority is just stupid. Maybe a goal for PGI and Cauldron should be to figure out how to make FP less pivotal on long range slap fights, and more supportive of alternative methods of engagement and scoring, similar to how W40K TT changed its match scoring to objective holding over killing the enemy army. (I.E. level/map redesign and objective driven scoring).

Snub + AC-20: Return Snubs to a HSL 2, but minimize the heat penalty for firing three; that way, heavier Mechs can boat more Heatsinks, which will allow for limited 3x Snub + AC-20 alphas; not enough to spam for 1 shotting light mechs, but enough to deliver a heavy blow to Heavier mechs at least 2x before overheating.

[Gas Guzzler]

MrTBSC, on 29 April 2021 - 05:15 AM, said:

no, it is ... each weapon delivers its full damage in one projektile, if yout target happens to stand still he gets the full salvo on the one component you aimed at and that is more likely to happen with this build than any other non single-projectile-weapons build ...

Okay captain obvious.

If your target stands still, ANY pinpoint weapon (lasers, auto cannons, ppcs, gauss) is PPFLD. The solution. Don't be a scrub. Move when not in cover.

[Wid1046]

Clay Endfield, on 05 May 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

My thoughts on this:

IS AC-20: If asking for +1 HSL is too much, could we get a severely reduced Heat Penalty? Like a 1.5x heat penalty for firing 2 AC20s? Raising the heat gen and increasing the HSL punishes mechs that can only run a single AC-20; altering the ghost heat penalty should achieve the same effect without gimping Cataphract, Roughnecks, and Orions.

Light Gauss + ER PPC: If these are OP in faction play (because of range/range quirk interaction), but niche in quickplay, then maybe the issue is Faction Play, not the weapons or Range quirks. A handful of players play Faction, compared to the amount of players who play QP. Serving the interests of the minority over the interests of the majority is just stupid. Maybe a goal for PGI and Cauldron should be to figure out how to make FP less pivotal on long range slap fights, and more supportive of alternative methods of engagement and scoring, similar to how W40K TT changed its match scoring to objective holding over killing the enemy army. (I.E. level/map redesign and objective driven scoring).

Snub + AC-20: Return Snubs to a HSL 2, but minimize the heat penalty for firing three; that way, heavier Mechs can boat more Heatsinks, which will allow for limited 3x Snub + AC-20 alphas; not enough to spam for 1 shotting light mechs, but enough to deliver a heavy blow to Heavier mechs at least 2x before overheating.

I can't remember who said it, but one of the Cauldron members mentioned that certain mechs like the Jagermech and some Roughnecks will likely be getting quirks to allow them to fire dual AC20 without ghost heat. They plan on making it possible for certain mechs that can't abuse it by boating dual AC20 along with snub nose PPCs. So yes some mechs will be able to use dual AC20 without ghost heat, but mechs like the Annihilator and at least certain King Crabs will have to eat the ghost heat if they want to fire dual AC20s with triple snubs (I've seen quite a few people doing these builds, the heat isn't too bad on these mechs).