259 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Alexander of Macedon, on 25 April 2021 - 09:39 AM, said:

Almost any weapon can melt when boated by assaults TBH. I'm looking more at traditional heavy/medium ATM platforms like the Mad Dog and Hunchback IIC that are running something like ATM18.

ATM effectiveness does not have a linear scale in line with number of tubes, especially with the proliferation of AMS in the past few months. That's the whole reason that the missile health buff was larger for smaller launchers, but it didn't go far enough towards leveling the field. High tube counts are always going to get more missiles through, and dropping the per-missile damage will always disproportionately affect lower tube counts.

The principal advantage of using mediums and fast heavies with ATMs was using their mobility to stay in the ideal range. The advantage of assaults was larger tube count. Lowering short-range and increasing long-range damage makes assaults stronger and mediums/heavies weaker. Increasing missile health does more for assaults since the cumulative total health of a volley is increased more with higher tube counts -- ATM48 (assuming 4x ATM12) gains 9.6 total volley health while ATM18 (assuming 2x ATM9) only gains 5.4 total volley health. Thus, AMS becomes proportionately more effective against smaller launchers at the same time that the use case for those launchers is nerfed.

Even ATM 18 is light though. Heavies and mediums typically gravitate towards 24-27 don't they?

[Dago Red]

Alexander of Macedon, on 25 April 2021 - 04:23 AM, said:

ATMs are not worth using right now. The whole point was to use careful positioning to linger in that relatively small bracket between min range and medium range for maximum damage. Now they're almost just cLRMs with no indirect fire pattern.

I'm finding ATM's more all around useful while simultaneously less satisfying.

The dance of staying on that tight high damage pocket but getting the payoff when you pull it off was VERY satisfying.

Now the missiles I considered pissed away to annoy people before seem to be really hurting them while the satisfying close range feel is diminished.

Not necessarily an actual problem but the feel is different now.

[Gas Guzzler]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:

Yeah that nugget of a mech is going to get some severe corrective action in June.

Yay!

Will you do the same for the SNV-1? Its less-than-MAD-IIC hardpoint situation and low engine cap desires.... something.

[Livingvicarious]

Krasnopesky, on 24 April 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

We are giving the Jenner quirks and fixing its weak arms in May patch!

Hype but I'm not holding my breath once the resize comes out. Still I dropped the jenner when the arms started falling off. Good to see it's getting a bit of attention. Will be excited to play once the jump jets get reworked. It'll probably never perform like the old days but hopefully it'll at least be viable again.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

[redacted]

uPL - on more than the PIR. A few mechs that harcore boat inc MDD. Minor adjustment.

[redacted]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 09:48 AM, said:

Ye so there are a few options if you want to dig into the Mechlab that are truly, stupid.

Like this REVENANT

Not joking you can alpha that almost 4x with a coolshot under 12s... It is too much.

That only has three micro pulse lasers on it. That hardly seems like a reason on its own to nerf that weapon type.

I still think that the only chassis that micro pulse lasers are currently a problem on is the Piranha and once the mobility patch hits I don't think they'll be an issue. Once mechs can twist fast enough and actually bend enough to aim at anything lower than the horizon I think that we won't be seeing all that many more Piranhas since they'll get deleted too easily. I don't think that boating micro pulses is a problem on the few other mechs that can do it either. I suggest holding off until after the mobility patch and check to see if they are still actually a problem.

Edited by Wid1046, 25 April 2021 - 12:17 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 April 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

Even ATM 18 is light though. Heavies and mediums typically gravitate towards 24-27 don't they?

That's probably down to personal preference. I prefer the better heat economy and deeper ammo pool since I'm generally able to stay alive and position where I can keep firing for prolonged periods of time without taking much in return.

Doesn't really make a difference though. Let's say for the sake of argument that the hypothetical player here is running ATM24, they're actually worse off than the ATM18 build (in terms of anti-AMS efficiency), since they only gain 4.8 volley health. Going down to stack ATM6 or ATM3 is also worse (increased tonnage/slot consumption aside) because those have the same per-missile health gain as ATM12 (i.e. 50% worse than ATM9).

Your best bet from an anti-AMS efficiency standpoint is to boat as many ATM9s as you can manage -- the Supernova setup included. Even in the case of an ATM36 Supernova stuck plinking at all the things you can't catch you're still going to deal more damage at long range than the hypothetical ATM18 MDD or HBK-IIC will at close.

Basically, ATM9 is the best vs. AMS by a substantial margin, and boating larger numbers of tubes at any range is more likely to get significant damage onto a specific component than using smaller numbers of tubes in the optimal range with good positioning. ATM assaults > efficient ATM mediums/heavies > the poor ******** trying to use setups with ATM3s or 6s on lights/mediums.

The patch changed ATMs from relatively complex weapons that demanded careful positioning and use to LRMs by another name.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 25 April 2021 - 12:28 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Alexander of Macedon, on 25 April 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

That's probably down to personal preference. I prefer the better heat economy and deeper ammo pool since I'm generally able to stay alive and position where I can keep firing for prolonged periods of time without taking much in return.

Doesn't really make a difference though. Let's say for the sake of argument that the hypothetical player here is running ATM24, they're actually worse off than the ATM18 build (in terms of anti-AMS efficiency), since they only gain 4.8 volley health. Going down to stack ATM6 or ATM3 is also worse (increased tonnage/slot consumption aside) because those have the same per-missile health gain as ATM12 (i.e. 50% worse than ATM9).

Your best bet from an anti-AMS efficiency standpoint is to boat as many ATM9s as you can manage -- the Supernova setup included. Even in the case of an ATM36 Supernova stuck plinking at all the things you can't catch you're still going to deal more damage at long range than the hypothetical ATM18 MDD or HBK-IIC will at close.

Basically, ATM9 is the best vs. AMS by a substantial margin, and boating larger numbers of tubes at any range is more likely to get significant damage onto a specific component than using smaller numbers of tubes in the optimal range with good positioning. ATM assaults > efficient ATM mediums/heavies > the poor ******** trying to use setups with ATM3s or 6s on lights/mediums.

The patch changed ATMs from relatively complex weapons that demanded careful positioning and use to LRMs by another name.

I just reinstalled the game and had a few matches. I'm very pleased with the patch so far,
but on the ATMS, I'm with you. they're rather 'meh' right now and very boring to play;
I preferred the risk/reward approach of the 3/2/1 dmg/range.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 25 April 2021 - 12:42 PM.

[Inappropriate Slap]

Things feel good at the moment, like you said 99% postivie.

Don't get caught up trying to make it perfect, if peopel are having fun and more things are viabale then great.

Can you make the flamer viable in some way?

[Wid1046]

Inappropriate Slap, on 25 April 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Things feel good at the moment, like you said 99% postivie.

Don't get caught up trying to make it perfect, if peopel are having fun and more things are viabale then great.

Can you make the flamer viable in some way?

Nice try inappropriate slap. After reading the first couple sentences you almost got my like before I noticed that last bit that you snuck in lol.

[justcallme A S H]

Wid1046, on 25 April 2021 - 11:48 AM, said:

That only has three micro pulse lasers on it. That hardly seems like a reason on its own to nerf that weapon type.
.

Was meant to have more, I buggered it up.

It feels ok on Viper and other mechs that can't hard boat. See what we come up with.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 25 April 2021 - 03:12 PM, said:

Was meant to have more, I buggered it up.

It feels ok on Viper and other mechs that can't hard boat. See what we come up with.

The mistake does kind of show that the micro pulse lasers aren't really that much better than the small pulses and er micros that you replaced them with. I don't think that we should be rushing to make additional weapon changes before we can see how things are with buffed mobility. That said, you guys did a great job with this latest patch, so I'll trust you guys if you really think it is necessary.

[evil kerensky]

I've been messing around a bit. I'm not an expert but here's my thoughts.

Micro lasers: give them a gh limit again. 10 should suffice. 30 damage every 1.5 seconds is good enough on a light mech, especially when that damage is normally going into a rear torso. And there aren't many light builds that would be badly hurt by this number. 12 before gh is the highest I'd go.

Snub ppcs feel good for once. I like the idea of some splash. Maybe if they did 8ppfld and 1-2 splash to adjacent components. I feel like their velocity is a tad high though. I'd like to see the velocity brought down to what the AC and lbx 20s range is, so they'd pair better.

Haven't tried hppcs, but if 2 hppcs are outperforming 3 regular ppcs then they must be beasts.


I don't hate light gauss, but I think either their damage needs to be slightly tweaked down, or they need to be relinked to ppc/gauss gh. Since IDK if you can have 2lgr and 1 ppc of any type as a gh setting, I'd just take 1 or 2 points of dmg off them. It's nice having gauss/ppc back in some capacity. I see lgr as what you take to pair with ppcs, and regular gauss as optimized for the gauss/vomit play style.



As for the other weapons that I've tried so far

Is ac20s: they need a little love. The velocity was a nice change, but the dps you get for the weight spent is a tad low in my opinion. I would also like to see the gh limit raised on them. The heavies that can take 2 ac20s aren't able to go very fast, and they don't have the weight for many backup weapons anyways.

Is srm6 could use either a dps buff or a spread buff. Srm4s still outperform them too substantially in both categories, and you can fire 5 srm4s for 10 tons, were as you fire 4srm6s with worse cool down and spread at 12 tons.

Is lbx20 and hgauss should lose 1 slot. While both are very powerful, they're only powerful if you position yourself really well. Being able to mount an life would let you move faster and therefore get in position more easily. A minor dps decrease would be fine to justify the loss of that 1 slot (very minor dps nerf, while powerful, they are still close ranged, and very heavy. You need enough dps to justify the tonnage still.)

Lpl is better, but far from what it once was. I think a cool down buff would help it out without making it too powerful. I'd like to see my 5lpl banshee and battlemaster return plz.



Overall things are pretty good. If I have any overarching critique it would be that the various old ranged metas saw a bigger boost than the old brawl metals (not counting small caliber energy brawl, which saw a large boost). That's logical, since the numbers people are also old comp players, and that's the play styles they understand best and miss the most. If the cauldron could give a touch more love to the splat and "big weapons, in ur face" playstyles, it'd be appreciated.

[PocketYoda]

Wid1046, on 25 April 2021 - 11:48 AM, said:

That only has three micro pulse lasers on it. That hardly seems like a reason on its own to nerf that weapon type.

I still think that the only chassis that micro pulse lasers are currently a problem on is the Piranha and once the mobility patch hits I don't think they'll be an issue. Once mechs can twist fast enough and actually bend enough to aim at anything lower than the horizon I think that we won't be seeing all that many more Piranhas since they'll get deleted too easily. I don't think that boating micro pulses is a problem on the few other mechs that can do it either. I suggest holding off until after the mobility patch and check to see if they are still actually a problem.

As i said earlier its the piranha that needs fixing not the weapons.

[pbiggz]

speaking of lights, will the slow clan lights be getting the urbanmech treatment?

[The6thMessenger]

Dago Red, on 25 April 2021 - 10:53 AM, said:

I'm finding ATM's more all around useful while simultaneously less satisfying.

The dance of staying on that tight high damage pocket but getting the payoff when you pull it off was VERY satisfying.

Now the missiles I considered pissed away to annoy people before seem to be really hurting them while the satisfying close range feel is diminished.

Not necessarily an actual problem but the feel is different now.

Yeah. I think ATMs would benefit more when they get their sweetspot back to 270m. You aren't doing monstrous damage now, I think it warrants being a bit more consistent now.

[Stonefalcon]

Verilligo, on 24 April 2021 - 08:09 AM, said:

I think it might be helpful to get a direction to take balance suggestions in with regards to how the Cauldron wants to balance weapons. By that I mean, is the Cauldron aiming to balance weapons such that they require more skill to use effectively, but extremely rewarding when done so, or is the aim to make weapons generally easier to use at the cost of decreased performance? As an example, you could easily build a type of balance for something like the HPPC by dropping the velocity while making it extremely deadly when it hits, but that builds in a skill requirement that makes it more difficult to approach for the general player base. Based on the recent balance pass changes, that would seem to be the opposite direction that the Cauldron is trying to head in, and confirming that (at least to some extent) might make suggestions easier to cultivate.

The main idea here is to make every weapon a viable choice. Prior to the Cauldron patch PGI's balance choices were a pathetic mess. Just think back three weeks ago where all you saw were PPCs, or back a year even when the only weapons you saw were PPCs, you get the point.

Now people are coming up with builds with weapon loadouts that previously would have been viewed as very questionable, but now are an absolute hoot to play with.

This patch wasn't about upping the skill level, it was about shifting the style of gameplay so MWO was actually enjoyable again in a variety of ways. Personally I think the boys hit that nail on the head.

[Tomo Sukesada]

I think the Snubs feel pretty good (not OP). I am not sure light PPCs 5 damage for the heavy investment of 3 tons is really worth it. That said, it really is a fun weapon to use.

Micro-pulses are very good and I would hope you only consider the extreme boating of these with whatever you do. Because again, they are another super fun weapon to use. I equipped a Black Lanner with 2 SRM6s and 10 micro-pulses and it worked well. It was definitely not OP, but it was competitive. So even adding ghost heat for 10 would negatively impact this configuration when your really trying to deal with Pirannas 15-16 micro-pulses.

Clan streaks, I tested these out quite a bit and I really tried to make them work. They just underperformed and were very unfun to use.

I did think of a different approach to streaks, not sure if you guys considered this or not. This change would require an engineer though I tried to make it super simple and avoid any messing around with any of the hard stuff (lock-on, component targetting, spread, etc.)

The basic premise is that streaks will miss more based on how fast the enemy mech is moving. Since the game requires you to have a lock on the target, it "should" know the speed of said mech. To illustrate this proposal, let's assume any mech going between say 0 and 69 KPH receives full pre-patch damage. Basically, stationary or slow mechs get full damage.

So, starting at 70 KPH damage reduction would begin and would increase based on speed like so...

Equation :
Damage Reduction Percentage (or missile miss) = ((Enemy Mech Speed / 10) * 2) / 100

Example:
Speed / Reduction (or missile miss) / Damage Per Missle
0-69 kph / 0% / 2
70 kph / 14% / 1.72
80 kph / 16% / 1.68
90 kph / 18% / 1.64
100 kph / 20% / 1.6
110 kph / 22% / 1.56
120 kph / 24% / 1.52
130 kph / 26% / 1.48
140 kph / 28% / 1.44
150 kph / 30% / 1.4
160 kph / 32% / 1.36
170 kph / 34% / 1.32
180 kph / 36% / 1.28

Alternatively, to make it more realistic, the reduction could be used to determine the number of missiles hit. Not sure which way would be easier to code. The equation could be tuned, of course to change the reduction numbers.

As you can see, at around 110 KPH, the damage would be roughly equal to current patch numbers and in fact would lessen above that speed.

In any event, this achieves the original goal of avoiding the issue where lights get one-shot or severely crippled by streak boats. Assuming they use speed of course. If a light mech tried to abuse this by circle strafing, they are still being hit by enough damage that it might not be there best idea. Was just a thought...

Edited by Tomo Sukesada, 25 April 2021 - 09:00 PM.

[Johnny Slam]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 05:50 AM, said:

We are looking at the following weapons that have already become clear candidates for adjustments as they are over-performing in various ways:

• Light Gauss

What was the point of changing the LGR mate?

See, while personally I reckoned it was just fine pre-March patch, first PGI and then you cauldron gents both said you wanted to make the system more useful so people would use it... so you made it more useful and now people are using it, and now you are talking about fannying about the people who used them all along some more because people bitched (which I told you all they would if it got any better). You know what I see? I see you are all well down the path of making the LGR just like everything else, co-opting the areas it excelled in like range, and nerfing others like rate of fire, all while giving it more damage something it didn't need.

Listen Ash... Cauldron.. etc, as one of the few pilots on the field running it on 95% of his drops prior to the changes over the last year I can tell you that the LGR was a solid system before. It's unique niche allowed the people who invested the time to learn to how to use it with exciting, crazy, and non-meta gameplay. If there was anything that could have used some love it was HP for the system and maybe, maybe a tiny range buff. The march patch was garbage because of doubling the cooldown, and the Cauldron patch fails because it increased the cooldown and increased the damage all while increasing the range of the LGR but also the normal Gauss (huge buff) in a way that chipped away at the LGR's unique space on the battlefield. Letting people pair the LGR with PPCs was clearly something on the wish list of someone in the Cauldron and wasn't needed. Now that boneheaded change is threatening the push the LGR into being nerfed into a lame AC10 clone, because of course people are pairing it with ppcs and scaring the sh*t out of people on Faction play.

So as I said: What was the point of changing the LGR Mate:

Y E O N N E, on 24 April 2021 - 08:18 AM, said:

It's the range, and more specifically the range in combination with the quirks. There isn't a lot that can counter a 2LGR+2ERPPC sniper in its role with similar efficacy. Beyond reducing/removing the quirks, there are several options being examined to fix this such as LGR damage reduction (10 > 9), ERLL range buffs, etc.

Once again, it is not the LGR it is the LGR being twinned with the PPCs, if you are going to nerf the LGR after it being useful for a whole 6 days because people are finally giving it a shot that is silly. But if you are going to do anything to it at all, you need to reinstate the inability to twin with PPCs.

BTW, I warned about tweaking or screwing with the LGR in any way, I warned you how you would make it either useless (March patch) or you would make people freak out when it became more useful (cauldron patch). But what did I get when I offered the advice? What happened when I, a player who has been dedicated to mastering the LRG in the last year (taking more than 100k shots in less than a year) and had no horse in the race get when I posted? I got forum jumped and abused and crapped on, because I'm not a big name or part of the club.

Unbelievable.


P.S. Do not remove the charge mechanic, removing the charge mechanic from gauss rifles would entirely unbalance the weapons tables.

Edited by Johnny Slam, 25 April 2021 - 11:16 PM.

[John Bronco]

I've yet to see any oppressive use of this LGR+ERPPC combo in the quick plays.

It's definitely catching on in FP, but I wouldn't say to devastating effect or anything.

Also, of course there's an LGR hipster guy lol.

[The6thMessenger]

John Bronco, on 25 April 2021 - 09:45 PM, said:

I've yet to see any oppressive use of this LGR+ERPPC combo in the quick plays.

It's definitely catching on in FP, but I wouldn't say to devastating effect or anything.

Also, of course there's an LGR hipster guy lol.

It's a 2x AC20 upwards 900ms with little shot deviation. It's going to be incredibly oppressive in coordinated play and on massive open area maps.