259 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

IIRC, you can't link AC/20 and SN-PPC without also removing the ability to fire even one Snub with the AC/20 due to the way ghost heat works by choosing the most restrictive combination of grouping and heat penalty. Since the AC/20 can only fire solo without ghost heat, that means it will ghost if fired with a Snub put into the same ghost heat group unless you raise the HSL on the AC/20 so you can fire two together.

Edit: and even then, the HSL would need to be raised again to preserve AC/20 + 2SNPPC.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 24 April 2021 - 03:48 PM.

[FupDup]

Y E O N N E, on 24 April 2021 - 03:47 PM, said:

IIRC, you can't link AC/20 and SN-PPC without also removing the ability to fire even one Snub with the AC/20 due to the way ghost heat works by choosing the most restrictive combination of grouping and heat penalty. Since the AC/20 can only fire solo without ghost heat, that means it will ghost if fired with a Snub put into the same ghost heat group unless you raise the HSL on the AC/20 so you can fire two together.

Edit: and even then, the HSL would need to be raised again to preserve AC/20 + 2SNPPC.

Your understanding of GH mechanics is correct.

As I keep saying, just set the SNPPC cap at 2 and be done with it.

[Nightbird]

Or... just bump AC20 heat up a bit and remove GH on it, like people have been asking for years.

Dual Heavy gauss is 50 pinpoint, MRM is 60 damage for just 20 tons. 2 AC20s is not as scary as it was 7 years ago.

Edited by Nightbird, 24 April 2021 - 04:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Nightbird, on 24 April 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

Or... just bump AC20 heat up a bit and remove GH on it, like people have been asking for years.

Dual Heavy gauss is 50 pinpoint, MRM is 60 damage for just 60 tons. 2 AC20s is not as scary as it was 7 years ago.

Individual AC/20 doesn't need to be weaker in any way.

MRM60 is spread out all over so that comparison is invalid. Dual HGR is a more fair comparison because both are PPFLD, but the 11-slot requirement plus the high tonnage restrict that combination to mechs that are extremely slow and large. AC/40 is still pretty heavy but it can be mounted by a much wider variety of mechs.

This thread is full of examples of Ghost Heat cap changes having unintended consequences (Micro Pulse, LGR + ERPPC, SNPPCs, etc) and I really don't see the need to temp fate with another.

Edited by FupDup, 24 April 2021 - 04:16 PM.

[Krasnopesky]

ThreeStooges, on 24 April 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

Can we finally make the JENNER smaller and give it 40-50 arm armor since the pnt-9r has 24-40 arm armor and all the urbies have 35-50 ct armor BEFORE SKILL TREE. Even a lct has more armor by going faster since their stock armor diffrence is only TWO armor. Dam Jenner mech is still the worst in the game and can do nothing better than a 20 tonner except die faster. Also how about actual quirks? None of the Jenners have armor quirks only structure which is useless. -15% missile quirk on the panther is exactly the same on the D.

What can a Jenner do that would make anyone take it over a 20tonner or any other 35 tonner? NOTHING.

We are giving the Jenner quirks and fixing its weak arms in May patch!

[MyriadDigits]

Y E O N N E, on 24 April 2021 - 03:47 PM, said:

IIRC, you can't link AC/20 and SN-PPC without also removing the ability to fire even one Snub with the AC/20 due to the way ghost heat works by choosing the most restrictive combination of grouping and heat penalty. Since the AC/20 can only fire solo without ghost heat, that means it will ghost if fired with a Snub put into the same ghost heat group unless you raise the HSL on the AC/20 so you can fire two together.

Edit: and even then, the HSL would need to be raised again to preserve AC/20 + 2SNPPC.

If that's how it works then HSL linking is a no go then, rip.

Whatever the case though, I don't think giving SNPPC splash is going to do anything except blindly hurt builds focused around SNPPC without actually addressing the AC20+SNPPC combo in any meaningful way.

Nightbird, on 24 April 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

Or... just bump AC20 heat up a bit and remove GH on it, like people have been asking for years.

Dual Heavy gauss is 50 pinpoint, MRM is 60 damage for just 60 tons. 2 AC20s is not as scary as it was 7 years ago.

MRM60 is spread damage, and DHG, while being comparative pinpoint, is a significant tonnage investment that disallows usage of LFE or XL engines, and can't utilize arm mounts. 1AC20+3SNPPC is substantially more accessible and easier to use, and 2AC20+3SNPPC just drops trou and dumps on your face with 70 pinpoint.

[FupDup]

MyriadDigits, on 24 April 2021 - 04:19 PM, said:

Whatever the case though, I don't think giving SNPPC splash is going to do anything except blindly hurt builds focused around SNPPC without actually addressing the AC20+SNPPC combo in any meaningful way.

I mean, I could live with SNPPC splash if the total damage was greater than 10, maybe something like 8 pinpoint plus 3-4 splash (11-12 total damage).

But really I think just putting the cap back at 2 SNPPCs solves the root problem much quicker because the cap of 3 is the root cause in the first place.

Edited by FupDup, 24 April 2021 - 04:21 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

FupDup, on 24 April 2021 - 04:21 PM, said:

I mean, I could live with SNPPC splash if the total damage was greater than 10, maybe something like 8 pinpoint plus 3-4 splash (11-12 total damage).

Maybe, but at the same time I wouldn't want to be increasing the damage the problem builds can do, even if its at a cost of the actual pinpoint.

FupDup, on 24 April 2021 - 04:21 PM, said:

But really I think just putting the cap back at 2 SNPPCs solves the root problem much quicker because the cap of 3 is the root cause in the first place.

This I think could also work. With the lowered heat the ghost heat from 3SNPPC wouldn't be crippling by any means (and they could always just fire 2+1 like cERPPC Veagles do), and this would make a bigger impact on the actually problematic builds. Though, the fact that it'd still hurt pure SNPPC builds can't be ignored.

Edited by MyriadDigits, 24 April 2021 - 04:32 PM.

[Remover of Obstacles]

First off.
Thanks to all involved for rolling back some of the un-funning. Well done.
Also, I am happy to see the very quick follow up. Good stuff. Keep it up.

SSRMs are going to be tricky. The current mechanic for missile spread based on components makes them some of the slowest killing weapons. They also require a lock to be maintained and short-ish range, allowing almost all weapons to be used against the mech firing the SSRMs. But they are some of the only weapons that can get certain damage on super fast mechs using masc or jump jet spam. The also rack up damage/match score, because the damage is spread very evenly over the target. The one shot kills on lights are very rare. The light would have to be running away at an angle and twisting so most of the damage would hit a back side torso with an XL engine.

The 1.5 damage on clan SSRMs feels really weak, especially considering the extra gear required to make SSRMs work and the lock. Maybe go back to 2 and only a slight reduction in cool down until some other things get changed to make them more viable.

So other things to consider:

Skill tree - Radar Derp maxes out at 80% or 90% reduction. This will also lock to be maintained in the mech is running in full view and passes being a radio antenna or an invisible piece of map garbage. Not more instant lock loss. I think we have all taken damage to the back from a lock that was lost 0.01 seconds after the missiles were fired. Not fun.

Skill tree - Target Retention gets changed to keep lock when enemy mech is within 100m (1 node)/200m (2 nodes). This will help against the nose boop missile lock break.

Skill tree - Change Speed Tweak from 1.5% to flat 2(?) kph increase. (Not related to weapons, but just a general thing to look at for mobility.) Proportionally this helps slower light mechs that are less used currently and will hopefully promote less team abandonment. It makes large maps, non-skirmish game modes, and hill climbing less painful and unfun.
It may be too strong for assaults, but this is just for speed, not for turning/twisting/ie - aiming.
Right now a Flea is getting 10.33 kph from Speed Tweak. So minor nerf on the top end. Big buff for slow mechs, especially ones with locked engines/low caps. Urbie, Adder, Cougar, 100 tonners with 300 engines get 6 more kph)

Equipment change - Jump Jets and MASC get an internal cool down of 0.5 seconds and a duration of 0.5 seconds when triggered. Hopefully that will fix some of the targeting issues/hit reg caused by the masc and jump jet animations.

[Alexander of Macedon]

FupDup, on 24 April 2021 - 04:21 PM, said:

I mean, I could live with SNPPC splash if the total damage was greater than 10, maybe something like 8 pinpoint plus 3-4 splash (11-12 total damage).

But really I think just putting the cap back at 2 SNPPCs solves the root problem much quicker because the cap of 3 is the root cause in the first place.

The 3 cap isn't the root cause at all, though? A 3x SNPPC build is not problematic. There are a good few mechs that are running that, and they're not the issue. We're all well aware of the issue being AC/20 + snub combo, so why just blindly nerf one half of that combo without substantially affecting the real problem? It's only 50 PPFLD at short range, which is not particularly outstanding to begin with in the current field, and it requires a substantial investment, arguably moreso than a lot of other leading PPFLD builds, with several drawbacks.

If one/two-tapping people with dual HGR is okay, AC/20 + 3x SNPPC ought to be okay too.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 24 April 2021 - 05:01 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Is this a joke as most of that again is IS weapons.. I think those are all in a fine place at this time.. please stop messing with IS to have clan dominance..

And ssrms on both sides are already useless without huge heavy lifting involved, I knew this Cauldron would be an issue. Way to clan bias..

So basically we made everything way too powerful and now we are going to nerf the last of the IS damage.. What about the rampant PIR-2 with micro lasers that can destroy mechs in seconds.. 7 kills a match isn't op for the Cauldron.

Edited by MechaGnome, 24 April 2021 - 05:15 PM.

[John Bronco]

MechaGnome, on 24 April 2021 - 05:07 PM, said:

Is this a joke as most of that again is IS weapons.. I think those are all in a fine place at this time.. please stop messing with IS to have clan dominance..

And ssrms on both sides are already useless without huge heavy lifting involved, I knew this Cauldron would be an issue. Way to clan bias..

So basically we made everything way too powerful and now we are going to nerf the last of the IS damage.. What about the rampant PIR-2 with micro lasers that can destroy mechs in seconds.. 7 kills a match isn't op for the Cauldron.

Micro pulse is on the list for adjustments, if you could be bothered to read the post and not just jump to an imagined bias.

[PocketYoda]

John Bronco, on 24 April 2021 - 05:18 PM, said:

Micro pulse is on the list for adjustments, if you could be bothered to read the post and not just jump to an imagined bias.

Its not imagined.
It was written weird still its the mech not the weapons.

Composite Armour, on 24 April 2021 - 07:29 AM, said:

Shouldn't balance adjustments for weapons wait until after the full mobility and quirk pass happen too? We're missing pieces of the puzzle on live. Would also give time for the new meta to settle.

This, very much this..

Edited by MechaGnome, 24 April 2021 - 05:25 PM.

[LordNothing]

did you just misquote macbeth?

while the cauldron has done in one patch what pgi couldn't do in 8 years, i think its important not to get too full of yourselves. balanced weapons still don't make up for the myriad of other deficiencies. maybe pgi should focus on making maps or something.

Edited by LordNothing, 24 April 2021 - 06:13 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 April 2021 - 11:47 AM, said:

You know what mech could REALLY use this quirk while you guys are looking at quirks?

The MAD-4A.

Yeah that nugget of a mech is going to get some severe corrective action in June.

[Lucky Noob]

justcallme A S H, on 24 April 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:

Yeah that nugget of a mech is going to get some severe corrective action in June.

cant wait for it, just picked up that beauty yesterday

[The6thMessenger]

I tried 3x LPPC on a Street Cleaner, it's awesome now. Basically an energy AC15, and I love it.

[VeeOt Dragon]

one way of putting a damper in Pinpoint fire is to not allow torso mounts to converge. have them fire only dead forward with arm mounts being able to converge but only at certain arcs (right arm only able to converge so far to the left and the opposite for the left arm mounts) other than this most things seem to be working rather well. i feel that LG sits at a nice spot and should have slightly longer optimal range than standard Gauss.

its still to early to tell how the changes will effect overall builds since people are still trying out new stuff but i have seen far more variety in what you come up against. some may just be odd builds to test out this or that weapon while others are full on new builds. i think that we should wait till after the next round of adjustments before changing any of the current ones (so some time after the Quirk/Mobility/Scaling). i was glad to see no changes to LRM since i think for the most part they are in a good place right now (could use a slight increase to the size of the lock circle but that might just be me)

i do have one Question for the Cauldron folks concerning the future changes to Quirks/Scaling/Mobility. will you be taking into consideration the lore fore each effected mech? as a Lore hound i understand that there is a ton of inconsistency in it but i am hoping that that information would at least be used as a starting point alongside the current values.

[vonJerg]

Krasnopesky, on 24 April 2021 - 10:19 AM, said:

Mechs I have found strong with LGR+ERPPC combo: Warhammer 6R/BW, Corsair 7A, Cataphract IM, Catapult K2, Highlander 732B, Thanatos 4P.

Strong and fun, yes, overpowering no. It just gave IS side one more way to deal with Virago, NCT-A, RFL-IIc-2 and probably few more that with their own quircks and/or TCs have the same-ish range. And all those clan mechs have very similar range and at least 2 out of these 3: way better DPS, alpha coefficient, speed. Not to mention that 3xcerPPC Veagle still feels and performs better at it's 55t then those IS mechs.

[vonJerg]

Oh, and that Nightstar, lol. Thanks to it's geometry, it is most likely to hit 3 different components on 3 different mechs simultaniously, 2 of those quite likely being it's allies to the left and right of it.