180 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

DAEDALOS513, on 10 May 2021 - 06:07 PM, said:

Agility won't help much against all these ppc builds the cauldron buffs have spawned.. all the new duration buffs will also mitigate some of the benefit from agility buffs.. so we're basically back to square one.

This is such a silly cat and mouse game.. so many unnecessary buffs should NEVER have been implemented in the first place so as to require agility buffs.. everything cauldron is doing is to make this game a COD clone.


They won't even consider that.. if a weapon is too strong, they won't nerf it.. they will buff everything else.. logical yes? They think 'nerfing' is anathema to making the game fun.. their goal is to make the game fun, you see.. match and ttk times be damned..

1. more of those big alphas will hit shield arms and torsos with increased mobility

2. you know for a fact that SNPPCs and uPLs are getting toned down in the May patch, so this is a lie

edit: like, I think you make some good points that are worth considering but I have difficulty taking you seriously because you follow up those points with untruths

Edited by pattonesque, 10 May 2021 - 06:46 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

pattonesque, on 10 May 2021 - 06:43 PM, said:

1. more of those big alphas will hit shield arms and torsos with increased mobility

2. you know for a fact that SNPPCs and uPLs are getting toned down in the May patch, so this is a lie

HPPC also getting more heat too, slowing the DPS noticeable.

Something logic, something confusion, something.

[Vxheous]

TheLazyLinx, on 10 May 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

If time to kill is a problem. Why not an across the board armor buff?
Something like 20% armor bonus would not only increase time to kill but also make super high alpha builds less of a pain to fight against.
Especially since a lot of mechs just don't have the armor to do anything right now. Sometimes when I take my front loaded, armor spec Kraken Atlas I lose all my CT armor in something like 2 alphas from the enemy. Something that would just put down lower armor assaults. Not to mention things like the Timberwolf and Marauder that have such weak side torsos they get picked apart before they can do anything.

TTK isn't a problem, it's about what it was back in 2016/2017 when the game was more fun. Problem with increasing armour, or other ways to drastically increase TTK turns the game into nothing but brawls. TTK has to be balanced against Time to Close distance, if high damage alphas are too high, you cannot close distance at all, but if they're too low, or mech health is too high, ranged play becomes useless because you don't deal enough damage to make a difference before heat efficient brawl mechs get into range of you and rip you to shreds. This is one of the reasons why the March Gauss PPC rebalance patch of massively increased cooldowns of those weapons were largely a failure, outside of the accidental breaking of clan ERPPC.

Right now, if I play a ranged mech, and someone not built for ranged play tries to fight me, but doesn't attempt to close range, I will destroy him. Conversely, if they use cover and close on me while taking minimal damage, they will destroy me up close. Neither is dominant assuming you played your role correctly. If a ranged mech is not an actual threat at range (and more a nuisance) and it sucks up close, the meta shifts to brawling. Brawling might be the way you see mech fights should be, but it's not the only way to play, nor should it be.

Edited by Vxheous, 10 May 2021 - 07:56 PM.

[YueFei]

TheLazyLinx, on 10 May 2021 - 04:37 PM, said:

Except mobility is a by design unbalanced implementation, while an across the board armor buff would not be.
Also another factor. Mobility would require a certain skill level to use. While armor would benefit even noobs just starting out.

That's not true. The devil is in the details. An across-the-board armor buff can indeed unbalance things, by making mechs which rely on low damage-to-heat ratio weapons relatively weaker, since they'll overheat well before they've been able to deal significant damage to enemies. The balance would shift towards mechs with colder running weapons that have higher damage-to-heat ratios, most likely favoring brawling over long range or mid range.

[pbiggz]

Dahief 720, on 10 May 2021 - 05:10 PM, said:

Also don't assume so much, I implied no such notion.

Wasn't you, more it was linx. I can't stand the nimby attitude is all.

[RJF Volkodav]

Imaging increasing TTK by buffing armor or nerfing pinpoint so that there is no stopping power at the distance and you can always brawl. The game will be like potatoe-tornado of light-medium-heavy around an assaults staying and shooting face to face.
We almost got it, but some people still want this trend to go. Thats impressive.
Even more there are some of them which are the crying about nascar and pinpont/TTK. You guys choose what you want more. Nascars or lower TTK. Because there is no way to have both eliminated at once unless you have no totally redisigned maps with much more open space around.

https://youtu.be/N0HoqjxfvJ4?t=6

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 11 May 2021 - 07:11 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

pattonesque, on 10 May 2021 - 06:43 PM, said:

1. more of those big alphas will hit shield arms and torsos with increased mobility

2. you know for a fact that SNPPCs and uPLs are getting toned down in the May patch, so this is a lie

edit: like, I think you make some good points that are worth considering but I have difficulty taking you seriously because you follow up those points with untruths

Haven't looked at may patch notes.. are they out?

[DAEDALOS513]

Vxheous, on 10 May 2021 - 07:53 PM, said:

TTK isn't a problem, it's about what it was back in 2016/2017 when the game was more fun. Problem with increasing armour, or other ways to drastically increase TTK turns the game into nothing but brawls. TTK has to be balanced against Time to Close distance, if high damage alphas are too high, you cannot close distance at all, but if they're too low, or mech health is too high, ranged play becomes useless because you don't deal enough damage to make a difference before heat efficient brawl mechs get into range of you and rip you to shreds. This is one of the reasons why the March Gauss PPC rebalance patch of massively increased cooldowns of those weapons were largely a failure, outside of the accidental breaking of clan ERPPC.

Right now, if I play a ranged mech, and someone not built for ranged play tries to fight me, but doesn't attempt to close range, I will destroy him. Conversely, if they use cover and close on me while taking minimal damage, they will destroy me up close. Neither is dominant assuming you played your role correctly. If a ranged mech is not an actual threat at range (and more a nuisance) and it sucks up close, the meta shifts to brawling. Brawling might be the way you see mech fights should be, but it's not the only way to play, nor should it be.

TTK is a problem.. many will attest to this. Even if you think it isn't.. increasing it will improve game enjoyment.

Increasing armour turns game into brawls? This game is already aggressive and brawly.. and buffing weapons that didn't need it made it even more so. It can't get much more brawly then it is now. At least adding armour will stretch out the brawl, add a few more laps to the nascar or give someone time to reposition/escape.

About ranged mechs.. you can't expect a ranged mechs to be able to just park his a$$ on a 'power position' and snipe all match.. and then be able to brawl effectively should the need arise. NO. That's the trade-off of going snipe and pug-shielding. You have to be aware of your surroundings.. watch your teams positioning and shadow them at range.. use uav's.. seismic.. jets.. and if you see you are being closed in on, REPOSITION. Guess what.. your added armour (yes even snipers can benefit from added armour) will give you more of a chance to do so. Snipers got so spoiled with clan ppc and ac2/uac2 boats.. because these weapons allow them to do both very effectively and it shouldn't be this way; these are what I call crutches.

Sniping isn't just about damage btw.. but yes as you say, being a nuisance as well.. nuisance snipers are very effective at suppressing enemy pushes and corralling the enemy into weak positions. I have a blast manipulating the enemy team in my single ppc mist lynx. I'm weak.. but you can't ignore me. you can't let me hit you in the back. Now should i also be able to brawl? Does that seem right?

One thing i agree with, brawling shouldn't be the only way to play but armour buffs will not increase it.. you see the enemy will also have added armour so any benefit you think you'll have by being aggressive with your newly found armour is cancelled out.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 11 May 2021 - 08:56 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 08 May 2021 - 12:18 PM, said:

I totally agree with you that added agility will not be used as a defensive benefit but as an aggressive one resulting in nascar's the likes of which we have never seen

What? NASCAR is a thing because agility is bad.

NASCAR took hold because the majority of assaults have the agility of a 747 and take 10 seconds to leave cover and return to cover. That means the only viable strategy is to hold the W key and hope that your team comes with you.

Agility will most definitely reduce NASCAR. The fact that you think the opposite speaks volumes.

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 11 May 2021 - 08:54 AM, said:

TTK is a problem.. many will attest to this. Even if you think it isn't.. increasing it will improve game enjoyment.

Increasing armour turns game into brawls? This game is already aggressive and brawly.. and buffing weapons that didn't need it made it even more so. It can't get much more brawly then it is now. At least adding armour will stretch out the brawl, add a few more laps to the nascar or give someone time to reposition/escape.

About ranged mechs.. you can't expect a ranged mechs to be able to just park his a$$ on a 'power position' and snipe all match.. and then be able to brawl effectively should the need arise. NO. That's the trade-off of going snipe and pug-shielding. You have to be aware of your surroundings.. watch your teams positioning and shadow them at range.. use uav's.. seismic.. jets.. and if you see you are being closed in on, REPOSITION. Guess what.. your added armour (yes even snipers can benefit from added armour) will give you more of a chance to do so. Snipers got so spoiled with clan ppc and ac2/uac2 boats.. because these weapons allow them to do both very effectively and it shouldn't be this way; these are what I call crutches.

Sniping isn't just about damage btw.. but yes as you say, being a nuisance as well.. nuisance snipers are very effective at suppressing enemy pushes and corralling the enemy into weak positions. I have a blast manipulating the enemy team in my single ppc mist lynx. I'm weak.. but you can't ignore me. you can't let me hit you in the back. Now should i also be able to brawl? Does that seem right?

One thing i agree with, brawling shouldn't be the only way to play but armour buffs will not increase it.. you see the enemy will also have added armour so any benefit you think you'll have by being aggressive with your newly found armour is cancelled out.

I wish you would just quit. Reposition? Right, imagine repositioning at 60-70 kph when you have brawlers closing at 85-100kph. You can to a point, but not indefinitely.

Many will also attest to TTK not being a problem. *snore*

Did the Cauldron changes make a single ER PPC Mist Lynx an effective brawler??? I missed that. Tell me more.

[DAEDALOS513]

RJF Volkodav, on 11 May 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

Imaging increasing TTK by buffing armor or nerfing pinpoint so that there is no stopping power at the distance and you can always brawl. The game will be like potatoe-tornado of light-medium-heavy around an assaults staying and shooting face to face.
We almost got it, but some people still want this trend to go. Thats impressive.
Even more there are some of them which are the crying about nascar and pinpont/TTK. You guys choose what you want more. Nascars or lower TTK. Because there is no way to have both eliminated at once unless you have no totally redisigned maps with much more open space around.

https://youtu.be/N0HoqjxfvJ4?t=6

Dude, we're not talking game breaking armour buffs like what cauldron has done by buffing weapons that didn't need it.

We don't choose nascar, nascar is an inevitability due to:

a) poor map design where battles are center map oriented

b.) the fact that flanking around a hill or building is more conducive to staying alive because you are less likely to encounter multiple mechs at a time

c) Stronger weapons makes people more aggressive (looking at you cauldron)

Wide open maps don't stop it.. as we all have experienced full blown nascar on polar (and not just in domination).

To fix this scourge we need a reason to use other parts of the map (other than center).. give us reason to split up into lances and accomplish some kind of task so that we can have mini-skirmishes throughout map.. make center ASYMMETRICAL or add some obstacles to stop smooth movement..

It's interesting that solaris city has a perfectly round area in the center but because the circle is so wide, nascar isn't as much of a problem.. team ends up either fighting in one of the grids around the center.. or does an about-face and turns back the way they came to face enemy.. or uses middle to cut across to a grid.. but nascar is pretty rare on that map. This should be noted..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 11 May 2021 - 09:27 AM.

[MechNexus]

I still don't get the people who think buffing underused stuff is "power creep".

Light PPCs, Light Gauss, MRM10s and C-AC20s were borderline useless up until the last patch, and were almost never used in the context of high level play - the only instance I can think of these ever being used at the top end was the 4 light gauss fafnir, which was a joke build.

Like, it's not power creep to bring up under-utilised equipment to the same level as what's already in use. Hell, usually in balance discussions it's the other way around, where people retort with "buff everything else" when people call for strong outliers to get nerfed. Can we make our minds up, please?

The notion of perfect balance aside... The cauldron's changes have opened up a lot of new, fun playstyles, and we're only one patch in. Have some faith.

Edited by MechNexus, 11 May 2021 - 09:14 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

MechNexus, on 11 May 2021 - 09:13 AM, said:

I still don't get the people who think buffing underused stuff is "power creep".

Light PPCs, Light Gauss, MRM10s and C-AC20s were borderline useless up until the last patch, and were almost never used in the context of high level play - the only instance I can think of these ever being used at the top end was the 4 light gauss fafnir, which was a joke build.

Like, it's not power creep to bring up under-utilised equipment to the same level as what's already in use. Hell, usually in balance discussions it's the other way around, where people retort with "buff everything else" when people call for strong outliers to get nerfed. Can we make our minds up, please?

The notion of perfect balance aside... The cauldron's changes have opened up a lot of new, fun playstyles, and we're only one patch in. Have some faith.

You can also make weaker weapons more viable by nerfing the op ones.. anyway a few of those buffs of the weaker weapons were fine.. the problem is buffing weapons that did not need it and no one asked for.. i'd call that power creep.

I also have some hope for the future.. but we can save so much time by using common sense.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 11 May 2021 - 09:26 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 May 2021 - 09:07 AM, said:

I wish you would just quit. Reposition? Right, imagine repositioning at 60-70 kph when you have brawlers closing at 85-100kph. You can to a point, but not indefinitely.

Many will also attest to TTK not being a problem. *snore*

Did the Cauldron changes make a single ER PPC Mist Lynx an effective brawler??? I missed that. Tell me more.

Exactly.. some matches you will be able to reposition some matches you won't.. some matches your team will hold.. some matches your team will nascar away from you. pro tip: if you see them doing so.. hide and shut down and wait for the rotation to come back to you so you have some support before powering up. Some matches the enemy won't have lights to engage you.. sniping SHOULD BE feast or famine.. it's a trade-off to hiding and pug shielding. Pro tip #2 If you have your heart set on sniping.. do it with a buddy so you can support each other.

Bottom line.. you aren't going to have great matches every time as a sniper.. hell you won't have great matches every time as a brawler or poker.. but you can't expect to have the best of both worlds.. the reward is in the challenge!

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 11 May 2021 - 09:32 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

DAEDALOS513, on 11 May 2021 - 09:18 AM, said:

i'd call that power creep.

You'd be wrong, but okay.

The strongest 'Mechs pre-patch are still the strongest 'Mechs post-patch. Buffing the bottom increases the average, but there's no Power Creep until The Best Thing is superseded by The Next Best Thing (usually several times, forming a pattern).

Edited by Vlad Ward, 11 May 2021 - 09:33 AM.

[meteorol]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 May 2021 - 09:01 AM, said:

Agility will most definitely reduce NASCAR. The fact that you think the opposite speaks volumes.

Dude, you got this all wrong.

Buffing agility back to 2017 values will result in nascars the likes of which we have never seen... and somehow in particular didn't see to such extent in 2017 for some mysterious reason, despite agility being way better than it currently is?

Obviously, increased agility at 2017 levels will lead us straight back (????) to out of control nascar... you know, like back then, before the agility nerf... when we somehow didn't have... oh snap, this doesn't lead anywhere... nvm.

Edited by meteorol, 11 May 2021 - 09:38 AM.

[Leone]

Time to Kill isn't a problem, many will attest to this. Even if you think it is, increasing it will only decrease one's enjoyment of the game.

The game can always get more brawly than it is now. But, as someone who loves the brawl, I understand that there'd only be more salt when my play style reign supreme.

I mean, sniping is all about the damage. Nuisance snipers who fire from beyond optimal range, or only have a few weapons are easy to ignore. I mean, you can literally just let hit you in the back whilst you brawl it up. I love it when they sit back and help my team outnumber the enemy.

~Leone

[DAEDALOS513]

Leone, on 11 May 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

Time to Kill isn't a problem, many will attest to this. Even if you think it is, increasing it will only decrease one's enjoyment of the game.

The game can always get more brawly than it is now. But, as someone who loves the brawl, I understand that there'd only be more salt when my play style reign supreme.

I mean, sniping is all about the damage. Nuisance snipers who fire from beyond optimal range, or only have a few weapons are easy to ignore. I mean, you can literally just let hit you in the back whilst you brawl it up. I love it when they sit back and help my team outnumber the enemy.

~Leone

Increasing TTK will decrease enjoyment..? hmm

You think the game can get more brawly than 3-4 minute engagement times? bahaha RIP mwo.

You're wrong about snipers.. stick to brawling.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 11 May 2021 - 09:49 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 11 May 2021 - 09:58 AM, said:

Yes we know you fish for anti-cauldron comments every match. Obviously you are going to find a few people that agree with you.

I'm personally ecstatic with the changes. So many more options to choose from.