42 replies to this topic

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

srsly? can anybody say the game would be in a better place WITHOUT ghostheat?!


yeah, I don't like it either, but it has reasonS to be there.
as does the ac20 ghostheat. if you don't see how and where 2xac20 is plain better at delivering pinpoint dmg WHERE you want it than 2xhvy.gauss, then you should actually TEST it and find out.

hell, I've run the 2xac20+3x snub kingcrab and even with ghostheat, it just delivers (mind you: still t4 territory, where people struggle to aim).


I'm not opposed to some or more* exceptions on the HSL, like the awesome or the hunchieIIC, but you better have a reason to do so; and it can't be "because I wanna alpha more than anybody else".

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 30 April 2021 - 03:14 AM.

[Goedmaker]

Y E O N N E, on 29 April 2021 - 07:28 PM, said:

The first build generates 27 heat, the second generates 18 before ghost heat is accounted for. Also, would you take LGauss if normal Gauss could do all the same things? There's not a heck of a lot of ways to tune normal Gauss to be good in a shorter range bracket than LGauss without stepping on some of the ACs, so it has to stay a long-range gun to thrive. At the same time, LGauss needs a party trick to make it something actually worth taking because it's otherwise not light enough to warrant taking over Gauss on any 'Mech that can realistically use it.



Again, the first build is 26 heat and the second one is only 10 before accounting for ghost heat. But Cauldron agrees the SN-PPC might be a bit over-tuned and will be updating it.



Same reason for both.

Why wouldn't you account for ghost heat when discussing the heat gen of the builds? That's the whole reason I brought this up. Unless you chainfire the regular gauss combo, you're going to get almost double the heat for the same tonnage and pinpoint damage as the light gauss combo.

When you factor in ghost heat the AC20 combos aren't much better. Unless you chainfire, you're getting very similar heat gen while having 10 less damage per alpha and nearly the same tonnage when you factor in higher ammo usage.

Tested in game:
The light gauss combo can do 2 alphas before overheating
The regular gauss combo can do 1 alpha before overheating
The AC20 with snub noses can do 2 alphas, or 3 if I wait an additional second
The 2x AC20 can do 3 alphas, or 4 if I wait an additional second or two

The AC20's you could argue lower heat gen with ghost heat, though I still see no reason to run it when the snub nose combo does 10 more damage and uses less ammo and space. But the ghost heat on the regular gauss combo makes the build not work at all. If it wasn't for the ghost heat penalties, then the heat gen of these builds would actually make sense.

[D A T A]

Goedmaker, on 29 April 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

Not factoring in ammo usage, here are some weapon combos:

2x Light Gauss + 3x PPC = 45 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x Gauss + 2x PPC = 44 tons, 50 dmg, ghost heat

1x AC20 + 3x Snub Nose PPC = 32 tons, 50 dmg, no ghost heat
2x AC20 = 28 tons, 40 dmg, ghost heat



For the AC20 combos you could maybe argue there is a difference in heat gen but the gauss combos don't make sense at all to me.

2GAUSS 2 PPC DOES GHOST
ac20 ghost heat is very minimal anyways
Snub noses are getting their pinpoint damage nerfed and splash damage added

Also, there is a logic flaw where you consider other weapons in combos, and 2ac20 by themselves.
Mechs with 2ac20 and 3 snubs alphastrike is 70 pinpoint with very minimal ghost.
We are considering ac20 hsl+1 quirk though on mechs that can not abuse it and at the same time are iconic, like jagermech.

Remember that the ghost depends A LOT from the base heat value of the weapon, so the ghost heat you get from ppcs is on another planet compared to the one you get from ac20.
So even without ghost, light gauss erppc combos can alpha 2/3 times.
Jager 2ac20 alphas 5/6 and then continuous chain even with ghost.

Edited by D A T A, 30 April 2021 - 06:53 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Goedmaker, on 30 April 2021 - 05:01 AM, said:

Why wouldn't you account for ghost heat when discussing the heat gen of the builds?

Because the fact that they ghost is precisely why the alternate combos have a reason to be chosen.

[HammerMaster]

Ghost Heat TM is a dollar store band-aid for BS PPFLD BECAUSE no bloom reticule. Circuitous Band-aids.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 30 April 2021 - 02:53 PM, said:

Ghost Heat TM is a dollar store band-aid for BS PPFLD BECAUSE no bloom reticule. Circuitous Band-aids.

Bloom mechanics impact follow-up shots, not the initial shot. The strength of PPFLD combos is that all the damage you need is in that initial shot.

[HammerMaster]

Y E O N N E, on 01 May 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

Bloom mechanics impact follow-up shots, not the initial shot. The strength of PPFLD combos is that all the damage you need is in that initial shot.

No. Bloom occurs while you're moving. It would impact ALL shots to include THE FIRST SHOT SINCE EVERYONE IS RUNNING AROUND PINBALLING off of stuff. Not walking

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 01 May 2021 - 04:15 PM, said:

No. Bloom occurs while you're moving. It would impact ALL shots to include THE FIRST SHOT SINCE EVERYONE IS RUNNING AROUND PINBALLING off of stuff. Not walking

Nope, in games where the bloom implementation includes movement everybody stops moving to take the shot.

[HammerMaster]

Y E O N N E, on 01 May 2021 - 05:06 PM, said:

Nope, in games where the bloom implementation includes movement everybody stops moving to take the shot.

THAT'S the POINT!

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 01 May 2021 - 05:22 PM, said:

THAT'S the POINT!

No, your goal was to make the weapons scatter so you can't dump the damage in one place. I'm telling you that bloom will not help you because people will play around it...

...just like ghost heat.

[HammerMaster]

Y E O N N E, on 01 May 2021 - 06:09 PM, said:

No, your goal was to make the weapons scatter so you can't dump the damage in one place. I'm telling you that bloom will not help you because people will play around it...

...just like ghost heat.

Good. Then it won't be so prevalent.

[ShiverMeRivets]

JediPanther, on 29 April 2021 - 01:54 PM, said:

I find in dump as bleep we can't dual ac 20 on the kgcs which is their stock load out or on the cptl k2 yet the finir can dual hvy guass you all day long for no heat with ecm and back up pew pew. Just one of the many reasons I stopped playing.

Have you tried firing 2 AC20? Their heat has been reduced. Yes there is ghost heat, but it is manageable. You may choose to throw in another DHS for good measure. I run 2AC20 on the Victor and Corsair. Most of the time I fire both and eat the ghost heat. On the Corsair I fire them with PPCs and the heat is not really an issue.
Try it before complaining.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 02 May 2021 - 04:25 PM, said:

Good. Then it won't be so prevalent.

It will be, because most people stop to take the shots already.

I suggest you do a little bit more pondering on causal relationships. The only 'Mechs that will be impacted by a bloom mechanic are Lights, which are not the 'Mechs you are complaining about dumping PPFLD alphas into things.

[Nayru]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 30 April 2021 - 03:13 AM, said:

srsly? can anybody say the game would be in a better place WITHOUT ghostheat?!

yeah 'cause 80% of my 4-digit hour time played is pre-gh and it was way better than this hot mess of 'balance'

it's a lopsided placebo that doesn't do much to stop giant alphas except make them harder to pull off

not much harder given if you get slapped by ac20 + triple snub + an amount of srm6's and it's a solid hit you're probably screwed from that point on anyway, but harder nonetheless

i'll keep on obliterating people with twin ac20 triple snub kgc and having fun my way, people can keep pretending that the ac20 heat spike will do anything to stop me from coring them in 4 seconds

6 ppcs --> 6 ppcs --> very long shutdown sure as **** didn't back then

Spoiler

(and yes, nix the limit 1 on ac20 gh, see what happens)

Edited by Nayru, 03 May 2021 - 04:45 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Y E O N N E, on 01 May 2021 - 06:09 PM, said:

No, your goal was to make the weapons scatter so you can't dump the damage in one place. I'm telling you that bloom will not help you because people will play around it...

...just like ghost heat.

Bloom shrink speed can always be tweaked to make it impractical to stop for shots long enough to reach pinpoint precision on anything but a long range sniper.

Frankly, I have always been amazed that Bloom wasn't included in the game design from day 1.

[HammerMaster]

Vlad Ward, on 03 May 2021 - 05:19 AM, said:

Bloom shrink speed can always be tweaked to make it impractical to stop for shots long enough to reach pinpoint precision on anything but a long range sniper.

Frankly, I have always been amazed that Bloom wasn't included in the game design from day 1.

It was. They took it away.

[Vlad Ward]

HammerMaster, on 03 May 2021 - 04:06 PM, said:

It was. They took it away.

It was? I don't remember ever playing with Bloom.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vlad Ward, on 03 May 2021 - 04:21 PM, said:

It was? I don't remember ever playing with Bloom.

It was a convergence thing, not so much a bloom. It took time to get all your weapons pinpoint.

[Vlad Ward]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

It was a convergence thing, not so much a bloom. It took time to get all your weapons pinpoint.

Oh, yeah! Man, that was a mess. Slow convergence + slow projectiles (and thus leading targets).

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 May 2021 - 04:26 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vlad Ward, on 03 May 2021 - 04:25 PM, said:

Oh, yeah! Man, that was a mess. Slow convergence + slow projectiles (and thus leading targets).

bUt ThaT wAs ThE gOlDeN aGe bEfoRe PoInT aNd ClIcK wArRiOr OnLiNe.



In all seriousness though, that type of stuff leads to less fun and more frustration. It's cool for a simulator/MW5 type game, but for PvP.... it just becomes a source of frustration.