52 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

Real question-
It's been said that snubs are "slightly outperforming".
Given their weight, heat, cooldown and range- I'm wondering why they are considered to overperform?

My best guess is they are doing "slightly" more damage than they should at extended range?
But I don't know.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 30 April 2021 - 08:50 AM.

[Wid1046]

Cauldron members have stated that they think the amount of pinpoint damage from them is too high especially when paired up with other pinpoint damage sources like AC20. It sounds like the plan is to keep the total damage from them the same, but make some of it splash to adjacent components. So your cooldown, heat, total damage, and range will stay the same, but you won't be able to concentrate it all onto a single weak point anymore. It sounds like a good solution.

[Brauer]

I don't think they're overperforming much. They're still not great in a lot of situations. I saw a player running a snub UM a bunch last night and it didn't seem to work terribly well. The main issue, if any, is the PPFLD close range builds that pair them with AC10/20s. So it's important to be careful about any changes because it's not like snubs alone are OP right now.

[feeWAIVER]

Wid1046, on 30 April 2021 - 09:22 AM, said:

Cauldron members have stated that they think the amount of pinpoint damage from them is too high especially when paired up with other pinpoint damage sources like AC20. It sounds like the plan is to keep the total damage from them the same, but make some of it splash to adjacent components. So your cooldown, heat, total damage, and range will stay the same, but you won't be able to concentrate it all onto a single weak point anymore. It sounds like a good solution.

So they are gonna make them splash? Doesn't that kinda defeat the point?


So, are they gonna do 6 dmg and splash 2 to adjacent components? 8 dmg and splash 1?
You'd almost be better off just taking medium pulse at that point.. Or large lasers...

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

try the kingcrab with 3x snub and 2x ac20; if you can read a paperdoll AND aim accordingly.. oh boy.
granted, a metalheart kingrab isn't hard to take apart - but that is an entirely different thing

snipping away 1-2 pinpoint-dmg and re-adding then as splash sounds like a good idea, imo.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 30 April 2021 - 12:01 PM.

[Krasnopesky]

Cauldron member here.

Currently we are planning to change snubs by reducing the pinpoint damage from 10 to 8 (20% reduction) and introducing splash damage (1.5 per side component, 3 in total) for an overall damage increase of 10%. That means 11 total damage per snub shot.

This works a few ways; it reduces pinpoint damage which has been a large portion of feedback we have received. It grants triple snub builds a bit more damage and makes them a bit more forgiving, as missing the weak CT and hitting the fresh side torso still deals some splash damage to the CT. It also helps to distinguish the PPC family even more. Finally even previous to the patch dropping, many people wanted snub nose PPC to act as a shotgun. While we cannot simply turn snubs into energy LBXs (due to a few issues outside our control) introducing this splash damage it a way to emulate that same concept.

Edited by Krasnopesky, 30 April 2021 - 12:32 PM.

[FupDup]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 12:30 PM, said:

Currently we are planning to change snubs by reducing the pinpoint damage from 10 to 8 (20% reduction) and introducing splash damage (1.5 per side component, 3 in total) for an overall damage increase of 10%. That means 11 total damage per snub shot.

This works a few ways; it reduces pinpoint damage which has been a large portion of feedback we have received. It grants triple snub builds a bit more damage and makes them a bit more forgiving, as missing the weak CT and hitting the fresh side torso still deals some splash damage to the CT. It also helps to distinguish the PPC family even more. Finally even previous to the patch dropping, many people wanted snub nose PPC to act as a shotgun. While we cannot simply turn snubs into energy LBXs (due to a few issues outside our control) introducing this splash damage it a way to emulate that same concept.

I can live with 11 total damage. If it was just 10 total then I'd be a sad panda.

[ScrapIron Prime]

It needs this, yes. an 18 ton investment in 3 snubs out-damages an identical investment in an AC/20 plus ammo, at the cost of a reasonable amount of heat. They're just TOO good not to use.

[Meep Meep]

So how does this fix triple snubs with projectiles? Total pinpoint goes down a tiny bit but adds in splash damage for an even higher total amount of damage done?

[Monkey Lover]

Thinking about it the main problem i see with snubs is the range. The light ppc is now the mid range "snub" weapon. Snubs need to be knock back to say 200.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Monkey Lover, on 30 April 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

Thinking about it the main problem i see with snubs is the range. The light ppc is now the mid range "snub" weapon. Snubs need to be knock back to say 200.

Yeah, but the light PPC has a lower alpha because of ghost heat. it takes SIX of them fired in groups of 2 or three to do the same damage as one alpha from three snubs and that's not pinpoint.

[Monkey Lover]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 April 2021 - 01:09 PM, said:

Yeah, but the light PPC has a lower alpha because of ghost heat. it takes SIX of them fired in groups of 2 or three to do the same damage as one alpha from three snubs and that's not pinpoint.

I agree the light ppc is still doesnt have the punch it needs for me to use it. I would like to see them increase the ghost heat +1 on these too. We don't want to keep them as strong as snubs thats for sure or there be no reason to take snubs to brawl.

Having very strong pinpoint under 200m i don't see as much of an issue as over because around 200m both players should be moving jumping and brawling.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 April 2021 - 01:27 PM.

[R Valentine]

They aren't overperforming. You're just making yourself too easy to hit.

[Heavy Money]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 12:30 PM, said:

Cauldron member here.

Currently we are planning to change snubs by reducing the pinpoint damage from 10 to 8 (20% reduction) and introducing splash damage (1.5 per side component, 3 in total) for an overall damage increase of 10%. That means 11 total damage per snub shot.

This works a few ways; it reduces pinpoint damage which has been a large portion of feedback we have received. It grants triple snub builds a bit more damage and makes them a bit more forgiving, as missing the weak CT and hitting the fresh side torso still deals some splash damage to the CT. It also helps to distinguish the PPC family even more. Finally even previous to the patch dropping, many people wanted snub nose PPC to act as a shotgun. While we cannot simply turn snubs into energy LBXs (due to a few issues outside our control) introducing this splash damage it a way to emulate that same concept.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Glad you guys are handling this.

[Krasnopesky]

Meep Meep, on 30 April 2021 - 12:50 PM, said:

So how does this fix triple snubs with projectiles? Total pinpoint goes down a tiny bit but adds in splash damage for an even higher total amount of damage done?

The total damage done isn't a problem, lots of Mechs can do over 50 damage in one alpha/double tap. Feedback we have received indicates that some people have an issue with the high pinpoint frontloaded damage, so we are addressing that concern while also making the change be positive in other ways too.

A 12% reduction in pinpoint is quite a large amount. AC20 + 3x Snub will be 44 pinpoint instead of 50. For comparison in the March patch 1x AC20 + 2x Snub could alpha for 44 points of damage while saving 6 tonnes via not bringing the third Snub Nose PPC. I did not see anyone complained about that particular combo (partly because everyone was complaining about high cooldowns and cERPPC being completely OP and broken).

Edited by Krasnopesky, 30 April 2021 - 02:22 PM.

[Nightbird]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 02:08 PM, said:

AC20 + 3x Snub will be 46 pinpoint instead of 50.

44? If 8 dmg and 3 splash

Honestly I would rather have 12 damage snubs and save 6 tons since snubs are meant to be cheap PPFLD for mediums and lights. 8 damage would make them worthless to panthers, urbies, and cicadas.

That or link AC20 and snubs for GH to nerf the combo to hell.

Edited by Nightbird, 30 April 2021 - 02:26 PM.

[Krasnopesky]

Nightbird, on 30 April 2021 - 02:19 PM, said:

44? If 8 dmg and 3 splash

Honestly I would rather have 12 damage snubs and save 6 tons since snubs are meant to be cheap PPFLD for mediums and lights. 8 damage would make them worthless to panthers, urbies, and cicadas.

That or link AC20 and snubs for GH to nerf the combo the hell.

Edited my post, thanks for picking up on that error.

The March patch 12 damage snubs were also 6 second cooldown along with all the other cooldown increases to PPCs and Gauss, a balance decision that received a huge amount of disliked from the community.

Why would you completely remove the AC20 + Snub combo though? I don't even find it particularly strong now.

[Nightbird]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 02:28 PM, said:

Why would you completely remove the AC20 + Snub combo though? I don't even find it particularly strong now.

I'm fine with keeping the AC20+3snub combo, but if the cost is 8 damage snubs with splash I would rather have snubs go back to x2 for GH or nerfing the combo. My reasoning is that snubs, even 3, are not particularly powerful, and it is only the combo with the AC20 that is strong.

8 damage snubs might be fine for AC20+3snubs, but outside of this combo snub usage will become bad again.

Edited by Nightbird, 30 April 2021 - 02:32 PM.

[Krasnopesky]

Nightbird, on 30 April 2021 - 02:30 PM, said:

I'm fine with keeping the AC20+3snub combo, but if the cost is 8 damage snubs with splash I would rather have snubs go back to x2 for GH or nerfing the combo. My reasoning is that snubs, even 3, are not particularly powerful, and it is only the combo with the AC20 that is strong.

8 damage snubs might be fine for AC20+3snubs, but outside of this combo snub usage will become bad again.

Makes sense, that is similar to my personal thoughts as well.

Should the 8 + 3 balance not work well, that path will likely be similar to the next step. Or at least close to what I recommend as a next step.

[HammerMaster]

SO..Because of scumbag synergy builds, builds that use one as on a light mech get stuffed. This is the BS that caused Gauss Charge.