172 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 05:33 PM, said:

honestly groups have no place in solo queue.

groups screwed up their own queue. so how was it a good idea to let them screw up solo queue too?

the fact the game has more players now sounds like a good argument for removing groups from solo queue to me. because the reason that was given for combining the queues no longer exists.


and the game has gotten an increase in players since february 2020 because of covid and everyone being stuck at home. tons of online games have seen their player bases increase as a result of covid. its not specific to MWO. stop trying to take credit for covid lmao.

although you can fairly attribute the new players gained in the last month or two to the recent patches. they have admittedly been more positive than negative, although far from perfect.

True, Titanfall 2 reported the biggest ever increase of players since their launch four years ago.

[Vlad Ward]

Titanfall 2 blew up when it got a Steam release

[Khobai]

Vlad Ward, on 05 May 2021 - 05:51 PM, said:

Titanfall 2 blew up when it got a Steam release

steam has also hit a record number of users because of covid. the number of average online users for steam more than tripled in 2020 compared to 2019 (with their record high being 6 million in 2019 and 20 million in 2020).

covid is definitely driving the number of players up in online games. its not ash and his delusions.

MWO just happens to be benefiting from the steam covid bubble. But thats eventually going to burst. And MWO will still have the same player retention problems its always had. Because that hasnt been fixed. The hype from the new patches is temporary too, its a shell game, switch some stats around and try to keep people interested in the game until they figure out the new meta and the game gets stale again. Its the same thing PGI has been doing for years and its never worked for them in the long term. Because they always fail to address the core underlying issues with the game and the fact that the game just isnt very fun.

And yes the problem is the fundamentals of this game. Its not because big stompy robots is some weirdly niche market. Its not because if you look at the success of games like war robots or titanfall 2 thats clearly not the case. The reality is MWO is a very flawed game with deep underlying issues that have never truly been fixed. And when they tried to fix it the best they could come up with was goofiness like ghost heat.

Edited by Khobai, 05 May 2021 - 06:24 PM.

[Leone]

I disagree. I enjoyed MW5, and not having to wait for a drop is always great, but really, I missed shooting folk. Granted, sometimes people play worse than the AI, but in general I find the game fun. I just wish I didn't hafta wait so long for CW matches.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 05 May 2021 - 06:59 PM.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 05:33 PM, said:

honestly groups have no place in solo queue.

groups screwed up their own queue. so how was it a good idea to let them screw up solo queue too?

This is meaningless. You don't get to punish people who want to play together because you think they deserve it.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 05:33 PM, said:

the fact the game has more players now sounds like a good argument for removing groups from solo queue to me. because the reason that was given for combining the queues no longer exists since there are more players now than there were when the decision was made to combine the queues.

It only seems like a good idea if you're ok with making the game fragile and vulnerable even to modest shocks.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 05:33 PM, said:

and the game has gotten an increase in players since february 2020 because of covid and everyone being stuck at home. tons of online games have seen their player bases increase as a result of covid. its not specific to MWO. stop trying to take credit for covid lmao.

Its hard to truly say what effects COVID has had or will have. At least at the beginning it probably boosted numbers, but things havent exactly been calm out in the real world, so plenty of people probably havent had time to play, even with restrictions in place. Nevertheless, this game is seeing a resurgence because its under development again. There's a promise of new features and content that didnt exist before. Don't get it twisted.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 05:33 PM, said:

although you can fairly attribute the new players gained in the last month or two to the recent patches. the patches have admittedly been more positive than negative, although far from perfect. Theyre not going to save the game in the long term. Its just temporary hype over the meta getting shook up but once that dies down the game will be just as dead as it was before. Because they still havent fixed any of the fundamental underlying issues with the game.

Whether the game stays under active development into the future is still an open question, but this has nothing to do with the fact that splitting up queues punishes people for playing the game the way they want to, and makes the queues fragile. Plenty of technical explanations have been given in this thread for why splitting the queues is a bad idea. So I will only repeat that this notion is a toxic one that would make the game worse, and it needs to be buried deep and never spoken of again.

[Anjian]

Leone, on 05 May 2021 - 06:59 PM, said:

I disagree. I enjoyed MW5, and not having to wait for a drop is always great, but really, I missed shooting folk. Granted, sometimes people play worse than the AI, but in general I find the game fun. I just wish I didn't hafta wait so long for CW matches.

~Leone.

Going to give MW5 a shot at the end of the month when it becomes available for Xbox. By then it should have matured properly with the patches and improvements, and passed Microsoft's minimum level of standards to be posted for Xbox.


The game probably has some overhead pressure to give it PvP, given that Russ now answers to a higher power, and I don't mind that it has, especially when your back end is going to be Microsoft Azure powered.

[pbiggz]

Anjian, on 05 May 2021 - 07:59 PM, said:

Microsoft Azure powered.

Azure ain't that great.

[Anjian]

pbiggz, on 05 May 2021 - 08:04 PM, said:

Azure ain't that great.

Much better than whatever bucket of bolts they call a server in Toronto.

[Khobai]

pbiggz, on 05 May 2021 - 07:43 PM, said:

This is meaningless. You don't get to punish people who want to play together because you think they deserve it.

you do realize that argument works both ways right? I can just as easily say you dont have the right to punish solo players by forcing groups upon them.

groups belong in group queue. solos belong in solo queue. simple as that.thats the only way nobody gets punished.

the problem is PGI allowed groups to screw up group queue. they never did anything to fix the problem. Then they somehow thought it was a good idea to combine queues and let the same problems infect solo queue too. allowing groups in solo queue is an absolute joke with the current pathetic matchmaker and everybody knows it.

Quote

Its hard to truly say what effects COVID has had or will have. At least at the beginning it probably boosted numbers, but things havent exactly been calm out in the real world, so plenty of people probably havent had time to play, even with restrictions in place. Nevertheless, this game is seeing a resurgence because its under development again. There's a promise of new features and content that didnt exist before. Don't get it twisted.

its not hard at all to say what effects covid has had. Steam themselves have admitted covid has resulted in triple the number of average online players. That increase in online players has trickled into most online steam games including MWO. the uptick in players over the last year is a direct result of covid and nothing else.

I can also tell you with certainty that when covid dies down MWO will also go back to being dead. The game cannot be saved by shaking up the meta with a few balance patches. Thats generating temporary hype at best. If they wanna turn the game around they need to fix the game's deeper underlying problems that cause it to not retain players in the long term. Player retention is the key to growing a player base and this game lacks the ability to hold onto players in no small part due to its piss poor matchmaking. Groups in solo queue with a bad matchmaker is not helping player retention.

Quote

splitting up queues punishes people for playing the game the way they want to

you are 100% wrong. combining queues is what punished people.

when queues were combined it punished solo players by forcing groups upon them. especially since the matchmaker is completely terrible.

Splitting up the queues does not punish people for playing the game they want to. Groups can still play in groups in group queue. How does that punish anyone? PGI didnt even make an honest attempt to fix group queue they just opted for dumping groups into solo queue because it was easier for them to do than actually fixing the real problem. And the real problem is the fact they have no clue how to make a working matchmaker.

Unless you meant the way you wanna play is to play in a group vs a bunch of solo players because it gives you an unfair advantage that exploits the fact MWO has a virtually non-existent matchmaker. Thats pathetic though. So ill assume you dont mean that (even though its probably what you meant).

Again having groups in solo queue with a terrible matchmaker is not going to help this game retain players in the long term. It will cause players to leave the game for the exact same reason it caused players to leave group queue. Theres a direct correlation between player W/L ratio and player happiness. Groups continuing to cause incredibly unbalanced matches is not going to keep players happy or encourage them to stick around. Solo queue will inevitably fail for the same reason group queue did.

Again the game's developers need to focus on fixing its festering underlying issues instead of focusing on ultimately meaningless and superficial things like balance patches and meta shakeups. Otherwise the game will never get out of the rut its in.

Edited by Khobai, 06 May 2021 - 12:34 AM.

[Surefoot]

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

Groups continuing to cause incredibly unbalanced matches (...)

In the few hundreds matches i've dropped in QP since I returned for the patch, I did drop with or against 4-man groups and didnt see any impact, if any it's negative for the team as they often do not communicate at all and do their thing which often doesnt turn out well. All of my best drops were with a communicative, motivated team, group or no group - the eventual 3- or 4-man group dropping with us or against us was irrelevant every time.
So like Ash said you should back up your claims with actual statistics

[justcallme A S H]

Surefoot, on 06 May 2021 - 12:52 AM, said:

In the few hundreds matches i've dropped in QP since I returned for the patch, I did drop with or against 4-man groups and didnt see any impact, if any it's negative for the team as they often do not communicate at all and do their thing which often doesnt turn out well. All of my best drops were with a communicative, motivated team, group or no group - the eventual 3- or 4-man group dropping with us or against us was irrelevant every time.

Yeah this is what I mean. Once you're not in T1/T2 filled games, which we know is not the majority of the playerbase. Groups are very often having negligeble impact on matches. They all kinda just run around blowing mechs up, or getting blown up.

Little coordination, synced builds, map control. Just dudes having fun in a mech game.

When you play in the lower tier matches, like actually play and not just talk about it, you see things are quite different in the belly of the playerbase. At least that's what I see and you also see that. Im sure others see it too and the most important part - much more commonly than T1 4mans steamrolling.

Surefoot, on 06 May 2021 - 12:52 AM, said:

So like Ash said you should back up your claims with actual statistics

I'll give you the hot tip - I've been waiting for facts, real stats etc to many discussions I've tried to have for 3+ years... You might well be waiting a while too

[Khobai]

Surefoot, on 06 May 2021 - 12:52 AM, said:

In the few hundreds matches i've dropped in QP since I returned for the patch, I did drop with or against 4-man groups and didnt see any impact, if any it's negative for the team as they often do not communicate at all and do their thing which often doesnt turn out well. All of my best drops were with a communicative, motivated team, group or no group - the eventual 3- or 4-man group dropping with us or against us was irrelevant every time.
So like Ash said you should back up your claims with actual statistics

Ash is also on record saying allowing groups in solo queue would be incredibly unbalanced. I know this because ive had this very argument with him before.

Yet now hes defending it.

Hes what you call a hypocrite.


Ive always been a proponent for allowing small groups in solo queue. Provided there was a matchmaker that was actually worth a damn. The problem is the matchmaker sucks. And as long as the matchmaker sucks I dont think groups should be forced onto solo queue.

The crappy non-existent matchmaker destroyed group queue. So why would a combined queue result in a different outcome? The same problem still exists that always existed.

I think the queues should be separated again. Especially now that the number of players is higher than it was when the decision was made to combine the queues. The reason given for combining queues no longer exists. Its a good opportunity to make an honest attempt at fixing group queue.

Quote

So like Ash said you should back up your claims with actual statistics

the game is gaining new players because of covid thats the only reason the problem with groups hasnt been more readily apparent. but the very fact group queue destroyed itself is all the proof you need. the claim is already backed up because its happened before. theres no reason to think it wont happen again once the covid player bubble pops.

afterall how does introducing the problems that destroyed group queue into solo queue benefit solo players? it doesnt. there is no benefit to solo players whatever.

even ash himself has said in the past it was a bad idea that would cause unbalanced matchups.

The reality is Ash is simply bargaining trying to keep any form of group play alive whatsoever. He would rather be a hypocrite than not have group play in the game. He knows its unbalanced because hes said so himself.

I personally would rather see the queues separated again and an honest attempt made to fix group queue with an actual functioning matchmaker. Or at least implement some kindve functional matchmaker in the combined queue not this awful tier garbage theyve been trying to make work for years. Barring either of those I would rather see groups removed from the solo queue.

Edited by Khobai, 06 May 2021 - 01:46 AM.

[Sug]

This explains all the new dudebros constantly talking on coms.

[Surefoot]

Khobai, on 06 May 2021 - 01:12 AM, said:

the very fact group queue destroyed itself is all the proof you need.

That's a consequence of something, not a cause. Still waiting for actual stats, besides from what I understand the MM did merge because of the dwindling population and waiting 15+ minutes for a 2 minutes stomp game was not fun at all (winning or losing, either way). What you are proposing would eliminate groups entirely from the game, which given its very low population would certainly bury it deeper. For the record I managed to bring a friend who's discovering the game entirely (and is having a really tough time, MWO is definitely not beginner friendly) and dropping in group with him so I can help him and get his bearings, and I suspect quite a few other groups are doing the same. Also again, from my experience and end-of-game screenshot collection groups are definitely not over performing in QP.

[Wid1046]

pbiggz, on 05 May 2021 - 07:43 PM, said:

This is meaningless. You don't get to punish people who want to play together because you think they deserve it.
[redacted]

Again, why do you think that having a separate group queue would be a punishment to group players? I'm not even asking you for any evidence, I'm just asking you to explain why you feel that way.

The only things you've brought up previously are things that wouldn't be a problem with Kras' proposal. He not only has solutions to cut wait times, but he even has a hard-limit on group queue wait times. I'll paste the proposal again for people who haven't seen it even though I know you've read it as it's come up multiple times before.

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

We need to get group queue back and I think Krasnopesky's suggestions are likely to be the best and fastest way to get group queue back with reasonable wait times. 8v8 with maximum group sizes of 4 will make matchmaking easier, and I for one would be open to dropping as a solo in group queue if there was a C-Bill boost associated with it. His idea to have maximum wait times and then toss the group into solo anyway if it takes too long is also fine since having a group in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule.

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 12:32 PM, said:

You obviously didn't read either of my above posts where I talked about Kras' proposal for a new group queue, so I'll point out a couple ways in which his proposal will be different than what you fear.

Wait times:
Wait times will be made shorter through four main means:
1) 8v8 instead of 12v12 in order to speed up matchmaking
2) Limiting group sizes to a maximum of 4 to speed up matchmaking
3) Allowing solo players to opt-in to be placed in group queue matches (there would be a C-bill incentive to playing in a group queue match as a solo player, and solo players would still normally be put into solo matches any time when they are not needed by the group queue matchmaker)
4) There would be a 5 minute maximum wait time before any groups that have been waiting that long are placed into a solo queue match anyway (groups being in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule)

Facing EmP 12 mans:
You won't need to face an EmP 12 man for the following reasons:
1) Groups will be limited to a maximum of 4 players
2) The matches will be 8v8 for group queue

I encourage you to listen to Kras' interview on NGNG.

Also, if groups playing with groups is somehow punishing them, why is groups playing with solos somehow not punishing the solos?

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 06 May 2021 - 01:12 AM, said:

Ash is also on record saying allowing groups in solo queue would be incredibly unbalanced. I know this because ive had this very argument with him before.

Yet now hes defending it.

Hes what you call a hypocrite.

Actually what it is - is you not understanding the discussion and findings can evolve.

I did say I was against groups in SoloQ from the very outset. I still am, Tier 1 / Tier 2 games are adversely affected exactly how I predicted.

However I am not so ignorant that I am unable to acknowledge that in other tiers and areas of the game there has been a decent benefit to SoupQ. I am happy to say I was not totally correct. Something you've never done I might add.

There is a potential hybrid solution - that I was also (funnily enough) a strong proponent over at the time of SoupQ merger (OPT-In etc etc). More details are needed data wise from PGI however to make a better assessment. It needs some strong research and development work I believe.

Khobai, on 06 May 2021 - 01:12 AM, said:

even ash himself has said in the past it was a bad idea that would cause unbalanced matchups.

The reality is Ash is simply bargaining trying to keep any form of group play alive whatsoever. He would rather be a hypocrite than not have group play in the game. He knows its unbalanced because hes said so himself.

Absolutely it does create unbalanced match ups - in specific Tiers as I said above. Tier 3 - Tier 5 matches it seems to have next to no effect. I would have thought it would have had more, however it doesn't. That is actually good news now the real world is showing what it needs to show.

Of course I want to keep group play alive. Why wouldn't I? It is an integral part of the community - you know - the people that actually play the game. To pretend it isn't important would very ignorant.


So apart from the stock-standard deflection routine - Are you going to provide any of the facts/stats and numbers to back up anything you have said? Your strong history of being unable to do so would say no - However it is a new year, I can be open minded enough to hope you might.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 May 2021 - 04:20 AM.

[KodiakGW]

Surefoot, on 06 May 2021 - 12:52 AM, said:

In the few hundreds matches i've dropped in QP since I returned for the patch, I did drop with or against 4-man groups and didnt see any impact, if any it's negative for the team as they often do not communicate at all and do their thing which often doesnt turn out well. All of my best drops were with a communicative, motivated team, group or no group - the eventual 3- or 4-man group dropping with us or against us was irrelevant every time.
So like Ash said you should back up your claims with actual statistics

Had a major negative impact on the last games I played solo.
https://www.reddit.c...comment/gvg4kkc

[Dauntless Blint]

Hybrid que +1. It could have an opt in alert just like faction play? or default to solo after suitable wait time.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

you do realize that argument works both ways right? I can just as easily say you dont have the right to punish solo players by forcing groups upon them.

Letting 4 mans into the solo queue didn't punish you, statistically, or any other way, and any suggestions it did were anecdotal at best, so no, based on the reality it does not go both ways.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

groups belong in group queue. solos belong in solo queue. simple as that.thats the only way nobody gets punished.

Is a statement a few people keep making, and when they try to back it up they fail every time.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

the problem is PGI allowed groups to screw up group queue. they never did anything to fix the problem. Then they somehow thought it was a good idea to combine queues and let the same problems infect solo queue too. allowing groups in solo queue is an absolute joke with the current pathetic matchmaker and everybody knows it.

Even with the population increases, this is a niche game at best. Its an open question whether or not population will keep going up, and whether or not development will continue, so suggesting that we divide up the population and silo them off in different queues is dangerous.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

its not hard at all to say what effects covid has had. Steam themselves have admitted covid has resulted in triple the number of average online players. That increase in online players has trickled into most online steam games including MWO. the uptick in players over the last year is a direct result of covid and nothing else.

If you can tell me what the lockdown restrictions will look like in Ontario in a month's time let me know.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

I can also tell you with certainty that when covid dies down MWO will also go back to being dead. The game cannot be saved by shaking up the meta with a few balance patches. Thats generating temporary hype at best. If they wanna turn the game around they need to fix the game's deeper underlying problems that cause it to not retain players in the long term.

If you think you can say that with certainty, you're full of **** and nobody should believe a word you say.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

Player retention is the key to growing a player base and this game lacks the ability to hold onto players in no small part due to its piss poor matchmaking. Groups in solo queue with a bad matchmaker is not helping player retention.

For the vast majority of people there was no statistical change to their match stats before or after the merger.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

you are 100% wrong. combining queues is what punished people.

when queues were combined it punished solo players by forcing groups upon them. especially since the matchmaker is completely terrible.

Is an opinion.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

Splitting up the queues does not punish people for playing the game they want to. Groups can still play in groups in group queue. How does that punish anyone? PGI didnt even make an honest attempt to fix group queue they just opted for dumping groups into solo queue because it was easier for them to do than actually fixing the real problem. And the real problem is the fact they have no clue how to make a working matchmaker.

And then when the group queue collapses from a mild shock like it did before, will i need to sync drop just to get in with friends? I get that you think you're a victim, just nobody actually cares.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

Unless you meant the way you wanna play is to play in a group vs a bunch of solo players because it gives you an unfair advantage that exploits the fact MWO has a virtually non-existent matchmaker. Thats pathetic though. So ill assume you dont mean that (even though its probably what you meant).

The old tried and true "i disagree so you're bad at the game" argument.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

Again having groups in solo queue with a terrible matchmaker is not going to help this game retain players in the long term. It will cause players to leave the game for the exact same reason it caused players to leave group queue. Theres a direct correlation between player W/L ratio and player happiness. Groups continuing to cause incredibly unbalanced matches is not going to keep players happy or encourage them to stick around. Solo queue will inevitably fail for the same reason group queue did.

You havent offered stats on this once. None of you have.

Khobai, on 05 May 2021 - 11:56 PM, said:

Again the game's developers need to focus on fixing its festering underlying issues instead of focusing on ultimately meaningless and superficial things like balance patches and meta shakeups. Otherwise the game will never get out of the rut its in.

The vast majority of suggestions on this forum and in the discords have been things that would address underlying problems. Balance changes to give love to underappreciated mechs. Pre-match lobbies with build swapping so that any team that gets put together can balance their builds against one another. Not breaking up teams at the end of a match. A return of divergent environment conditions. Rotating spawn and objective points. Dropdecks and respawning in quickplay.

These are changes that could improve the game.

Spinning wild conspiracies about how the groups abused you does not improve the game.

KodiakGW, on 06 May 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

Had a major negative impact on the last games I played solo.
https://www.reddit.c...comment/gvg4kkc

This is literally the definition of anecdotal evidence.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

on group impact:

-did a 2men with a buddy for a few games (both returning, so t5/t4 and getting to know the game again); there IS stuff you can pull off with a buddy that you can't solo, so impact is kinda there.

-otoh, and what I've seen FAR more often: 3-4men groups, who really do nothing at all. if they're fresh, I really don't blame them. you have to get started somewhere, and it naturally leads to "doing little" in that starting-out-time.
but.. when you alone "outdamage and outkill" all 4 of them put together (and I'm not that guy that wins every match single-handedly)
... yeah.. that is "impact", too.

I'd say all in all groups in solo ain't much of an issue since the re-install. yes, dropping against an "elite" group isn't fun for the most of you; as is the surefire ticket to matchloss that is a 4man-0clue;
but both are certainly not the norm, and thankfully QP matches are rather quick anyway.


TLDR: the impact of groups ON AVERAGE isn't as bigh as I feared, and having a match with a buddy on comms is WAY quicker then it was in group-Q. there's positives and negatives to the merge, and I'd take it as such.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 06 May 2021 - 05:16 AM.