172 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 06 May 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

on group impact:

-did a 2men with a buddy for a few games (both returning, so t5/t4 and getting to know the game again); there IS stuff you can pull off with a buddy that you can't solo, so impact is kinda there.

-otoh, and what I've seen FAR more often: 3-4men groups, who really do nothing at all. if they're fresh, I really don't blame them. you have to get started somewhere, and it naturally leads to "doing little" in that starting-out-time.
but.. when you alone "outdamage and outkill" all 4 of them put together (and I'm not that guy that wins every match single-handedly)
... yeah.. that is "impact", too.

I'd say all in all groups in solo ain't much of an issue since the re-install. yes, dropping against an "elite" group isn't fun for the most of you; as is the surefire ticket to matchloss that is a 4man-0clue;
but both are certainly not the norm, and thankfully QP matches are rather quick anyway.


TLDR: the impact of groups ON AVERAGE isn't as bigh as I feared, and having a match with a buddy on comms is WAY quicker then it was in group-Q. there's positives and negatives to the merge, and I'd take it as such.

I mean this should highlight just how useless anecdotal evidence is. That two different people can present their anecdotal evidence, stating that their experience was or wasn't influenced negatively tells you no real conclusion can be drawn from it.

[justcallme A S H]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 06 May 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

on group impact:

-did a 2men with a buddy for a few games (both returning, so t5/t4 and getting to know the game again); there IS stuff you can pull off with a buddy that you can't solo, so impact is kinda there.

Being fair - you really can't come back at a 92% player and need to 'learn the game' in Tier 5 games... If you're actively playing rather than looking at birds on the map, you're going to solidly dominate and your match score reflected that so no surprise even a 2man at that level is going to pull off various things.

You will feel more impact when you get to Tier 3 and more so in Tier 2. Groups and impact will be more evident, without a doubt.

Although at the same time a much smaller percentage of the player base sits there as we know from the data PGI already gives out.

[KodiakGW]

pbiggz said:

1620306702[/url]' post='6395282']
This is literally the definition of anecdotal evidence.

Anytime you want to see the anecdotal evidence in play, team up with me. In fact, I dare anyone who is continuing to defend group queues in solo to team up with me next double XP weekend to see my anecdotal evidence. Can’t do this Friday, doing my business taxes with my accountant. But weekend is free if they declare double XP.

Edit: Noticed he kept on going about anecdotal evidence on another thread, but still hasn’t taken up this challenge. Hmmm…wonder why.

Edited by KodiakGW, 16 May 2021 - 04:52 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I thought the merge would be really bad, so I was against it, but then to my own surprise I ended up having much more fun in the merged queue than I ever had in the solo queue.

Now there are definitely some negative impacts to balance, especially tonnage balance since PGI couldn't maintain weight class matching in the merged queue. And also sometimes you get those groups that are a little too stacked stomping around, but not that often IMO. I only see a big problem when you have 3+ really high end guys grouping, meaning 99th percentile type players, just normal 90+ players in groups (Like you get with most decent non-comp units) don't really cause a big problem in my experience, there's a lot of them and ususally there are good enough groups or solos on the other side to match them. I suppose your view here will depend on how bad you feel about imbalanced matches. I don't feel that bad about them myself but can see how others do.

So the negatives are there for sure, as predicted, but they have to weighed against the positives. And this is where I was forced to change my mind.

The positives were much greater than I thought. I love grouping up, always have, and now it's so much easier to do that casually. Before it was a pretty big effort to get a group going, basically you had to convince people to either play FP or get serious enough to handle the old group queue, and then in both cases the waiting times were horrible. Not a thing you'd attempt when you only have an hour or so to game.

Now it's much easier to get a group going, and also easy to get picked up or ask to join spontaneously. Dropping 2 or 3 is fun in a way it never was before. Now I can start the game, find just one buddy and we can do some drops with builds we want to test or whatever, and winning or losing it's still so much more fun than being forced to drop solo. Also even if matches are sometimes more unbalanced, I still find them more interesting when groups are involved both when playing in a group myself or dropping solo. Balance isn't the only measure of quality in a match, and in my experience the matches have more of those other qualities now when groups are in the queue.

Of course I'd like the negatives to be reduced or removed, and I'm sure a lot could be done here, but to me the positive effects are worth it. So I don't want the queue to split again even if the population allow it.

In the end it's a matter of opinion, but don't underestimate the positive side in terms of fun that comes from being able to quickly and casually drop in small groups. We didn't have that before and now we do, and lots of people really like it. It's something a separate group queue can't really give us, and if there is a price to pay for that maybe it's worth it?

Another positive effect I think it that the threshold for new players to start grouping up is reduced, there is no longer this big step you have to take to start playing with others. I remember how much effort it took me to make that decision, start hanging on TS, finding a unit, finding a time when GQ or CW was active and so on and so forth. As a new player I stayed solo much longer than I wanted because of that, and I'm happy you no longer need to jump through as many hoops just to play with others.

Just my 2 cents. I'm hoping the merged queue will be improved with better matchmaking and better handling of tonnage rather than split back into group and solo. Bigger population will help too if the cauldron changes leads to a resurgence. More people means more groups of all strengths in the queue, so the mm will more often be able to find another strong group and reduce the imbalancing effects of stacked groups. Maybe with bigger pop the MM can also be changed to try building matches with just groups before mixing in solos, so we can sometimes get 3 4mans on each side and so on, a "soft" way of splitting the queue again that I would be fine with.

Edited by Sjorpha, 06 May 2021 - 06:19 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

Sjorpha, on 06 May 2021 - 06:10 AM, said:

*snip*

Just my 2 cents. I'm hoping the merged queue will be improved with better matchmaking and better handling of tonnage rather than split back into group and solo.

So much this. Just fix QP instead of shoving all groups into a corner by themselves. If people really want a separate queue, we can always build out "Ranked" and "Unranked" like every other successful game and allow groups and solos in both.

When the only way to communicate on VOIP was to be in a group and have your own TS or Mumble server, groups had a huge advantage. How did PGI solve this? They didn't carve out a VOIP-only queue. They added VOIP to the base game.

Empower players until the only real advantage exclusive to groups is forcing the matchmaker to look for opponents when 4 EmP players are on the same team. That's the way of the future.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 06 May 2021 - 06:28 AM.

[Nightbird]

Stop blaming groups, blame the MM and the PSR rating.

There's is literally irrefutable proof the math underpinning the match maker system is bad therefore you can't have good balanced teams.

[Wid1046]

justcallme A S H, on 06 May 2021 - 01:02 AM, said:

[redacted]
I'll give you the hot tip - I've been waiting for facts, real stats etc to many discussions I've tried to have for 3+ years... You might well be waiting a while too

Yeah, we're waiting too. You've provided none of the stats or numbers that you've been demanding of others to back up your opinion, nor are you asking for them from people who agree with you. You claim that people left group queue due to groups, but if someone points out that the same is likely to happen to solo queue you demand that they provide statistics on the reasons why people have left the game. PGI doesn't do exit interviews with people leaving, nor do most people leaving provide feedback on the forum or reddit to explain their reasoning, so there are no statistics that will definitively prove either your opinion or those that other people have regarding the reasons why people have left the game. Your 'evidence' was that you 'watch a lot of streams'. Why is that a sufficient level of evidence to support your opinions, but not those of others?

You demand a level of evidence from others that you neither will nor can match and don't ask for any evidence from people who agree with you. You are a hipocrite.

Your demands for a standard of evidence that you cannot meet from anyone who disagrees with you is just a tactic to try to shut down the conversation. You provide anecdotal evidence to support your own opinions that 'groups aren't a problem for solo players' and then shut down any solo players who state that groups are a problem as just providing anecdotal evidence. When people give their reasoning as to why they believe groups are a problem for solo players, you demand statistics while providing none of your own. You also set up strawmen to knock down. People aren't saying that all groups are powerful and will win the game for you, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to disprove a point that no one is making.

You also still haven't explained why you think Kras' proposal is a bad thing. I'm not even asking for evidence, just why you feel that way. His proposal takes care of the wait time and '12 man drop' problems you seem to fear, so why do you feel that is worse than what we have now? He even includes that groups waiting beyond 5 minutes will automatically be injected into a match against solo players.

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 07:24 AM, said:

We need to get group queue back and I think Krasnopesky's suggestions are likely to be the best and fastest way to get group queue back with reasonable wait times. 8v8 with maximum group sizes of 4 will make matchmaking easier, and I for one would be open to dropping as a solo in group queue if there was a C-Bill boost associated with it. His idea to have maximum wait times and then toss the group into solo anyway if it takes too long is also fine since having a group in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule.

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 12:32 PM, said:

You obviously didn't read either of my above posts where I talked about Kras' proposal for a new group queue, so I'll point out a couple ways in which his proposal will be different than what you fear.


Wait times:
Wait times will be made shorter through four main means:
1) 8v8 instead of 12v12 in order to speed up matchmaking
2) Limiting group sizes to a maximum of 4 to speed up matchmaking
3) Allowing solo players to opt-in to be placed in group queue matches (there would be a C-bill incentive to playing in a group queue match as a solo player, and solo players would still normally be put into solo matches any time when they are not needed by the group queue matchmaker)
4) There would be a 5 minute maximum wait time before any groups that have been waiting that long are placed into a solo queue match anyway (groups being in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule)

Facing EmP 12 mans:
You won't need to face an EmP 12 man for the following reasons:
1) Groups will be limited to a maximum of 4 players
2) The matches will be 8v8 for group queue

I encourage you to listen to Kras' interview on NGNG.

The problems with trying to shut down dissenting opinions seem to be limited to just you and pbiggz. Everyone else here seems to be happy to at least hear from people even if they disagree with them. You can't expect to have a healthy discussion if you are unwilling to listen to people with different opinions.

There are really just two questions that I want to ask you and I'm not even asking for you to provide the 'statistics' or 'hard facts' that you demand from others, I just want to know why you feel the way you do.
1) Why do you think that having groups face other groups as per Kras' proposal would be a bad thing?
2) Why would solo players not have the same issues in the current mixed queue?

[pbiggz]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

Yeah, we're waiting too. You've provided none of the stats or numbers that you've been demanding of others to back up your opinion, nor are you asking for them from people who agree with you. You claim that people left group queue due to groups, but if someone points out that the same is likely to happen to solo queue you demand that they provide statistics on the reasons why people have left the game. PGI doesn't do exit interviews with people leaving, nor do most people leaving provide feedback on the forum or reddit to explain their reasoning, so there are no statistics that will definitively prove either your opinion or those that other people have regarding the reasons why people have left the game. Your 'evidence' was that you 'watch a lot of streams'. Why is that a sufficient level of evidence to support your opinions, but not those of others?

You demand a level of evidence from others that you neither will nor can match and don't ask for any evidence from people who agree with you. You are a hipocrite.

Your demands for a standard of evidence that you cannot meet from anyone who disagrees with you is just a tactic to try to shut down the conversation. You provide anecdotal evidence to support your own opinions that 'groups aren't a problem for solo players' and then shut down any solo players who state that groups are a problem as just providing anecdotal evidence. When people give their reasoning as to why they believe groups are a problem for solo players, you demand statistics while providing none of your own. You also set up strawmen to knock down. People aren't saying that all groups are powerful and will win the game for you, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to disprove a point that no one is making.

You also still haven't explained why you think Kras' proposal is a bad thing. I'm not even asking for evidence, just why you feel that way. His proposal takes care of the wait time and '12 man drop' problems you seem to fear, so why do you feel that is worse than what we have now? He even includes that groups waiting beyond 5 minutes will automatically be injected into a match against solo players.

justcallme A S H, on 06 May 2021 - 01:02 AM, said:

I'll give you the hot tip - I've been waiting for facts, real stats etc to many discussions I've tried to have for 3+ years... You might well be waiting a while too

Ash isn't the one declaring that groups are ruining quickplay and must be destroyed. You guys are. You're the ones making a sweeping claim without evidence.

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

The problems with trying to shut down dissenting opinions seem to be limited to just you and pbiggz. Everyone else here seems to be happy to at least hear from people even if they disagree with them. You can't expect to have a healthy discussion if you are unwilling to listen to people with different opinions.

This is not a healthy discussion. This is a recurring conspiracy perpetuated by a small minority of players who've made it their goal to silo off players they dont like. You can debate lots of things about this game, but arguing for things that will make it objectively worse at exactly the time when PGI's stated policy is that they'll basically do whatever we ask, is dangerous.

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

There are really just two questions that I want to ask you and I'm not even asking for you to provide the 'statistics' or 'hard facts' that you demand from others, I just want to know why you feel the way you do.
1) Why do you think that having groups face other groups as per Kras' proposal would be a bad thing?
2) Why would solo players not have the same issues in the current mixed queue?

1) Splitting queues is a bad idea. It makes the queues fragile, it boosts wait times in both queues. It adds unneeded complexity. It makes it harder for people to simply group up and play. We have done this before and it didn't work. Kras's proposal might address some problems, but splitting the queue in of itself is reckless. You want people to come to this game, you want them to bring their friends. If they do, only to discover the matches they are getting are of reduced quality because the matchmaker cant match PSR properly, we lose new players.

2) A unified queue is a bigger queue. It has a larger population, both of groups and solo players and is able to make matches with actual PSR balancing more effectively. Splitting them up compromises the ability of the matchmaker to do that for both queues. A real growth-oriented approach to this game is to lower barriers to entry and make it as easy as possible for people to get into the queue, the one queue.

[Wid1046]

pbiggz, on 06 May 2021 - 07:03 AM, said:

Ash isn't the one declaring that groups are ruining quickplay and must be destroyed. You guys are. You're the ones making a sweeping claim without evidence.

This is not a healthy discussion. This is a recurring conspiracy perpetuated by a small minority of players who've made it their goal to silo off players they dont like. You can debate lots of things about this game, but arguing for things that will make it objectively worse at exactly the time when PGI's stated policy is that they'll basically do whatever we ask, is dangerous.

You guys also aren't providing any evidence that creating a separate group queue will destroy groups and ruin the game. We believe that groups are ruining matches for solo player and you guys disagree. You guys believe that a separate group queue will ruin the game and is a punishment for groups and we disagree. Neither side has firm evidence to prove their beliefs.

pbiggz, on 06 May 2021 - 07:03 AM, said:

1) Splitting queues is a bad idea. It makes the queues fragile, it boosts wait times in both queues. It adds unneeded complexity. It makes it harder for people to simply group up and play. We have done this before and it didn't work. Kras's proposal might address some problems, but splitting the queue in of itself is reckless. You want people to come to this game, you want them to bring their friends. If they do, only to discover the matches they are getting are of reduced quality because the matchmaker cant match PSR properly, we lose new players.

2) A unified queue is a bigger queue. It has a larger population, both of groups and solo players and is able to make matches with actual PSR balancing more effectively. Splitting them up compromises the ability of the matchmaker to do that for both queues. A real growth-oriented approach to this game is to lower barriers to entry and make it as easy as possible for people to get into the queue, the one queue.

Thank you for providing your reasoning for why you don't like Kras' proposal. I still do not agree with you, but at least now I know why you believe what you do.

[w0qj]

A 100% solo player here, to the point that I ignore all invites

Planning to stay around; very happy with this PSR/Gulag/Cauldron April patch!
And looking forward to further patches from PSR/Gulag/Cauldron (mobility & quirks especially)!

justcallme A S H, on 05 May 2021 - 05:09 PM, said:

What I said does not translate to Solo players leaving the game. You've entirely made that one up of your own accord and I in no way said that.

That isn't happening if you watch the streamers (doing Solo sync drops), paying attention to player names in game, units dropping etc etc.
Of course it's not a exact science, happily state that.

[Leone]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

The problems with trying to shut down dissenting opinions seem to be limited to just you and pbiggz.

Apologies if it seems that way. I completely agree with them, I just didn't feel the need to post because it wouldn't help the arguement.

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 06:42 AM, said:

You can't expect to have a healthy discussion if you are unwilling to listen to people with different opinions.

This goes both ways you know.

Anyways, as for posting proof, we've already seen it. Queues were split. Wait times were up. People left.

~Leone.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

pbiggz, on 06 May 2021 - 05:27 AM, said:

I mean this should highlight just how useless anecdotal evidence is. That two different people can present their anecdotal evidence, stating that their experience was or wasn't influenced negatively tells you no real conclusion can be drawn from it.

ofc it is anecdotal - it's been literally 3-5 games we had with 2, in t4/5, and I stated as much. I don't see why you get so worked up over that, as I presented EXACTLY where -that- point of view comes from. further down below, so I don't type things 2 times

justcallme A S H, on 06 May 2021 - 05:29 AM, said:

Being fair - you really can't come back at a 92% player and need to 'learn the game' in Tier 5 games... If you're actively playing rather than looking at birds on the map, you're going to solidly dominate and your match score reflected that so no surprise even a 2man at that level is going to pull off various things.

You will feel more impact when you get to Tier 3 and more so in Tier 2. Groups and impact will be more evident, without a doubt.

Although at the same time a much smaller percentage of the player base sits there as we know from the data PGI already gives out.

eh.. yes and no; ofc I don't relearn from scratch, but -at times- it surely feels that way. funny story and true: my first match on canyon, in a fafnir, spawning in alpha, there was a "small step to the next level" in front of me; so full speed ahead and up you go.. or not. fall back, more of a startup-run, try again; fafnir still stuck.
frustration goes up, trying a third time. no good. I realised THEN that I should try at the next 'step up', wasted like 30seconds on that pebble and felt like a total noob ;D
so yeah: there are things I have to relearn, and it's plenty of 'em. but I can totally see what you mean, ofc.

@further on groups:
I don't dispute that in T1 things do look differently, and maybe they do in T2 or 3 - guess I'll see that soon.
BUT here in T4/5, I have yet to see a group (after now ~50? games) that has a POSITIVE impact on any match. I've seen "average and does not hinder the team too much" at-best. - again: here in t4-land.

our little 2men btw also had little impact on the matches; here's some more anecdotes
running 2 lights, we wanted to familiarize with the maps a bit and also do 'our own thing' ofc. you move to the right, cause that's what you've got in your memory;
you run into an assault who's seemingly lost. ha, that's food!
then that assault has another lost buddy. good, more food!
then those 2 assaults quickly have 2 more buddies, with 3-4 reinforcements coming in.
THEN you look onto the minimap, only to see the rest of your team still figuring out they're still in the dropzone, and where to go from here..
yeah, that happened in every match; so just saying: t5/4 is kinda special to be in. pls read my opinions on groups as such.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 06 May 2021 - 08:25 AM.

[Wid1046]

Leone, on 06 May 2021 - 08:07 AM, said:

Apologies if it seems that way. I completely agree with them, I just didn't feel the need to post because it wouldn't help the arguement.


This goes both ways you know.

Anyways, as for posting proof, we've already seen it. Queues were split. Wait times were up. People left.

~Leone.

I did not think that you were trying to shut down dissenting opinions. I mentioned in my post that the only two (on either side of the discussion) that appeared to be trying to shut down people for disagreeing with them were ASH and pbiggz. My complaint about shutting down discussion was solely about them.

As for the wait times with split queues, Kras' proposal takes multiple steps to decrease wait times as well as putting a hard limit on wait times. He has more changes, but the ones that would affect wait times for group queue are:
1) 8v8 instead of 12v12 in order to speed up matchmaking
2) Limiting group sizes to a maximum of 4 to speed up matchmaking (this is the same limit as currently in soup queue)
3) Allowing solo players to opt-in to be placed in group queue matches (there would be a C-bill incentive to playing in a group queue match as a solo player, and solo players would still normally be put into solo matches any time when they are not needed by the group queue matchmaker)
4) There would be a 5 minute maximum wait time before any groups that have been waiting that long are placed into a solo queue match anyway (groups being in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule)

Do you still think that the problems with wait time in the old system will still be there with Kras' proposed system? I think that the first three changes will allow groups to be matched up much more quickly than in the old system, and even if you form a group at a time when there aren't enough groups to form a match in 5 minutes, you'll automatically be injected into a solo match. The old problems with waiting 15-30 minutes won't be applicable with the new system. I really do want to hear other people's opinion on this, regardless on whether or not they agree with me. Thank you for contributing to the conversation.

[Nightbird]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 08:22 AM, said:

Do you still think that the problems with wait time in the old system will still be there with Kras' proposed system? I think that the first three changes will allow groups to be matched up much more quickly than in the old system, and even if you form a group at a time when there aren't enough groups to form a match in 5 minutes, you'll automatically be injected into a solo match. The old problems with waiting 15-30 minutes won't be applicable with the new system. I really do want to hear other people's opinion on this, regardless on whether or not they agree with me. Thank you for contributing to the conversation.

The quality of the matches would be dreadful, but at least the groups would be outside of the quick play for the most part. It's a win and lose solution as opposed to a win and win solution.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 08:22 AM, said:

As for the wait times with split queues, Kras' proposal takes multiple steps to decrease wait times as well as putting a hard limit on wait times. He has more changes, but the ones that would affect wait times for group queue are:
1) 8v8 instead of 12v12 in order to speed up matchmaking
2) Limiting group sizes to a maximum of 4 to speed up matchmaking (this is the same limit as currently in soup queue)
3) Allowing solo players to opt-in to be placed in group queue matches (there would be a C-bill incentive to playing in a group queue match as a solo player, and solo players would still normally be put into solo matches any time when they are not needed by the group queue matchmaker)
4) There would be a 5 minute maximum wait time before any groups that have been waiting that long are placed into a solo queue match anyway (groups being in solo queue would be the exception, not the rule)

Do you still think that the problems with wait time in the old system will still be there with Kras' proposed system? I think that the first three changes will allow groups to be matched up much more quickly than in the old system, and even if you form a group at a time when there aren't enough groups to form a match in 5 minutes, you'll automatically be injected into a solo match. The old problems with waiting 15-30 minutes won't be applicable with the new system. I really do want to hear other people's opinion on this, regardless on whether or not they agree with me. Thank you for contributing to the conversation.

I think that sounds like something they should try, imHo. Group-Q as we had it years ago was much more organised (read: people at least tried^^) than QP, and with 8v8 and an opt-in for solos I could see it work.
as much as the Chaos that is QP is entertaining, it also is frustrating at least that much; the passiveness of 20+ppl in every match is kinda getting to me, I'd rather join as solo into such a group-game (or part of a group ofc, once I re-familiarize myself with mwo more).

having the option to have "mini teams" in QP right now is kinda nice, having the option for an equally quickly found match in group-q would be nice[r].

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 06 May 2021 - 08:46 AM.

[Wid1046]

Nightbird, on 06 May 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

The quality of the matches would be dreadful, but at least the groups would be outside of the quick play for the most part. It's a win and lose solution as opposed to a win and win solution.

These days matches tend to have at least two groups in every match, between how many groups are around and dropping team size for groups from 12v12 to 8v8, I don't think that the match quality should appreciably drop for groups. The matchmaker also wouldn't have to deal with the imbalance that can be caused by one side having more or fewer groups on it (whether those groups are skilled enough to be a positive or negative for the team's chance of winning).

You said that you see separating out into two queues to be 'a win and lose solution as opposed to a win and win solution'. What do you see as being a 'win and win' solution?

Edited by Wid1046, 06 May 2021 - 08:57 AM.

[Nightbird]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 08:56 AM, said:

These days matches tend to have at least two groups in every match, between how many groups are around and dropping team size for groups from 12v12 to 8v8, I don't think that the match quality should appreciably drop for groups. The matchmaker also wouldn't have to deal with the imbalance that can be caused by one side having more or fewer groups on it (whether those groups are skilled enough to be a positive or negative for the team's chance of winning).

You said that you see separating out into two queues to be 'a win and lose solution as opposed to a win and win solution'. What do you see as being a 'win and win' solution?

1. Match quality: The current effect of groups on team balance and the poor match quality that results is mainly due to the Matchmaker (and related PSR formulas) being unable to determine the skill of the players and groups. If you don't know what people's skill levels are, you can't move people around and make balanced teams.

2. Smaller teams: Say two teams have a 10 or 20% skill gap due to a bad Matchmaker, how would it play out differently in 12vs12 versus 8vs8? Take 1vs1 for example, a pilot that is 10% more skilled than another will win almost 100% of the matches due to how mechanical (unrandom) 1vs1 matches are. As the number of people increases, there is more randomness that can happen. 8vs8 will have less randomness than 12vs12, so given the same quality of Matchmaking, the result will be noticeablely worse.

3. A win/win solution is to make groups irrelevant in mixed queue. This means that the Matchmaker correctly determines the skill level of groups, and thus correctly balances the two teams before a match starts. This means better matches and less wait time for everyone. That groups have a lopsided positive or negative impact today is a symptom of the blindness of the Matchmaker.

You can deal with this blindness in two ways, with eye surgery to fix it (MM update), or getting used to the blindness and changing your lifestyle around it (segregation).

Edited by Nightbird, 06 May 2021 - 09:36 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 06 May 2021 - 06:31 AM, said:

Stop blaming groups, blame the MM and the PSR rating.

There's is literally irrefutable proof the math underpinning the match maker system is bad therefore you can't have good balanced teams.

It’s true, playing lights only doesn’t even lower my PSR.

[Wid1046]

Nightbird, on 06 May 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

1. Match quality: The current effect of groups on team balance and the poor match quality that results is mainly due to the Matchmaker (and related PSR formulas) being unable to determine the skill of the players and groups. If you don't know what people's skill levels are, you can't move people around and make balanced teams.

2. Smaller teams: Say two teams have a 10 or 20% skill gap due to a bad Matchmaker, how would it play out differently in 12vs12 versus 8vs8? Take 1vs1 for example, a pilot that is 10% more skilled than another will win almost 100% of the matches due to how mechanical (unrandom) 1vs1 matches are. As the number of people increases, there is more randomness that can happen. 8vs8 will have less randomness than 12vs12, so given the same quality of Matchmaking, the result will be noticeablely worse.

3. A win/win solution is to make groups irrelevant in mixed queue. This means that the Matchmaker correctly determines the skill level of groups, and thus correctly balances the two teams before a match starts. This means better matches and less wait time for everyone. That groups have a lopsided positive or negative impact today is a symptom of the blindness of the Matchmaker.

You can deal with this blindness in two ways, with eye surgery to fix it (MM update), or getting used to the blindness and changing your lifestyle around it (segregation).

Thanks for providing your perspective on this. I do agree that the matchmaker is bad and should be improved. It would make a large difference in the quality of games regardless as to whether we keep with soup queue or split into a group queue and a solo queue.

For your second point, would you still be against Kras' proposal if it were changed to make the group queue 12v12?

I see where you're coming from with this second point, but I don't agree with your conclusion. I think that having 8v8 matches would both speed up matchmaking and make for better matches. While yes, a larger number of players would hide accidental inaccuracies in the matchmaker more (averaging out errors in the matchmaking by having more total players), it would also lead to the matchmaker needing to try to find more players of a similar skill level which I believe would lead to the matchmaker either being slower or putting people with a greater range of skill into the same game. If the matchmaker were improved as you suggested, the effect of accidental errors would drop (errors that would be more hidden by large team size) and the effect of errors due to having to pull in more players would rise (errors that would get worse with large team size). However, if you are right, we could just modify Kras' proposal to make group queue 12v12 to eliminate that problem.

The only way that I can see having groups merged with solos could improve the quality of matches for groups is due to the difference in skill level within a group. With people of different skill levels within a group, pulling solo players of similar skill levels to those of the individuals in the group to play on the opposing team would allow the teams to be more balanced. This however would mean that solo players would be put into matches that have a wider range of skills than they would otherwise be matched with/against, which would go against your idea of a 'win/win' solution, since this makes things better for groups at the expense of the match quality for solo players. There are also other issues which people (myself included) have brought up regarding groups being matched with solos, however I'll focus in this comment on things that you brought up.

Most of your concern seems to be with the matchmaker being bad, which I agree should be improved. It would help a lot for match quality regardless as to whether soup queue is kept or the queues are split. You seem to be considering a matchmaker update and splitting into a separate group queue and solo queue to be mutually exclusive, which is not the case.

Do you think that if the matchmaker was improved and Kras' proposal was changed so that group queue was 12v12 instead of 8v8 that you would still be against it?

[Nightbird]

Wid1046, on 06 May 2021 - 01:02 PM, said:

Do you think that if the matchmaker was improved and Kras' proposal was changed so that group queue was 12v12 instead of 8v8 that you would still be against it?

A matchmaker improvement alone would improve the quality of matches from about 28/100 today to 75/100 with groups and solos queuing together. Splitting solos and groups would result in a large reduction in quality for both since every skill tier will have fewer players requiring a larger skill band on each team for a game to start. In such a situation, even if the teams are balanced, the less skilled players on each team will be frustrated.

Furthermore 8vs8 will make it more difficult for the MM to balance a particularly good group. For example, 4-man top tier comp players in a group, in 12vs12 the matchmaker has 20 players to work with to make balanced teams. In 8vs8 it will only have 12 players, a severe reduction. That 4-man in 12v12 combined queue may attain a 2 or 3 WLR ratio with a good MM, but in 8vs8 split queue may get a 20 or 30 WLR, and drive all others from the queue.