230 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

cougurt, on 03 May 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

raising the heat generation of JJs on heavier mechs is something that might be worth exploring as well if it turns out to be a problem. as it stands, they're only a very minor contribution to your heat build up even on mechs that jump around a lot.

Well, a Highlander 733C with 8 tons of JJs (big investment since it can't boat 1 ton lasers) does contribute to heat a pretty significant amount. We'll see how things end up

[dario03]

FupDup, on 03 May 2021 - 03:41 PM, said:

They had an early document in the intel gathering thread for weapons...it was really bad. Meta Clan mechs all got armor while mechs like the Charger and Black Lanner were completely untouched. The Cat K2 and a Treb variant even got nerfed a little. A lot of IS mechs get small nerfs actually (they can justify the weapon quirk nerfs because of weapon changes but the armor nerfs are harder to justify). Lots of currently sub-par unused mechs got only small adjustments.

I'm hoping that the final quirk changes aren't a dumpster fire like the google doc they showcased months ago. I'll go dig it up and edit my post with the link to it.

EDIT: Here it is.

https://www.dropbox....dated.docx?dl=0

So there is definitely a lot of good in there, don't get me wrong, but there are also huge oversights like I mentioned above. It needs work.

That is old, was just a rough start work in progress, process is being changed.

[Nightbird]

D A T A, on 03 May 2021 - 04:03 PM, said:

1) some of them really are, look at how JGx won the WC in 2020, with a light squad ganking everthing basically, look how EMP won wc in 2019: with a flea and a commando capping, locking and backstabbing everything.
the problem is that people don't understand it because the "broken thing" is in the skill tree.
Usually some lights become broken when you put full survival tree on, as that survival tree is something like 3 times as powerful as the ones of heavies or assaults

2) lights are not getting nerfed (while instead some of them should, form my personal point of view), they are actually getting buffed: mechs that really need an agility boost (assaults) got very minimal additions, close to nothing (see annihilator and direwolf) while almost all lights got turbo-buffs (firestarter and similar ones)

3) completely useless lights are on the list for a heavy quirk pass focused on unique quirks, trying to give them a purpose and a role in this game that is not "backstab an assault that can't even move, turn or shoot back and then clap your own hands pretending to be good, while all you did was shoot at a pilot that could not see you nor shoot back, with the hitboxes 20 times larger, but barely x2 armor"

There you go guys, lights are OP. Don't expect anything these two patches.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 03 May 2021 - 05:03 PM, said:

There you go guys, lights are OP. Don't expect anything these two patches.

Turns out lights are the ones that take no skill. You had it backwards

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 03 May 2021 - 05:03 PM, said:

There you go guys, lights are OP. Don't expect anything these two patches.

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2021 - 05:10 PM, said:

Turns out lights are the ones that take no skill. You had it backwards

LOL Damn, let me skill up my Battlemaster Hellslinger

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 May 2021 - 05:11 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

D A T A, on 03 May 2021 - 04:03 PM, said:

Usually some lights become broken when you put full survival tree on, as that survival tree is something like 3 times as powerful as the ones of heavies or assaults

But this contradicts our local Jenner master in this very thread.... in fact he said something along the lines of only idiots take survival tree in lights.

[Gas Guzzler]

Darian DelFord, on 03 May 2021 - 05:10 PM, said:

LOL Damn, let me skill up my Battlemaster Hellslinger

Excuse me if I'm not exactly shaking in my jimmies...

[D A T A]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 May 2021 - 05:11 PM, said:

But this contradicts our local Jenner master in this very thread.... in fact he said something along the lines of only idiots take survival tree in lights.

The only reason why people complain about lights getting rekt is because they do not understand how BROKEN OP is the skill tree survival on lights.
A flea full survival can take a dual heavy gauss in ct and remain alive. Commando is even more sick, because there is the so called "double stack" with the quirks: the tree actually quirks the quirks themselves, so if you put full survival on mechs like urban k9, panther9r, commando1d or, firestarter you get to some very riddicolous results in terms of how ******* tanky they become: a k9 could take 4ac20 in the ct and still live. You could shoot 4 gausses in the side torso of a panther, you would not kill it, you could shoot 2heavy gauss in the side torso, you would not even open it's armor.

Edited by D A T A, 03 May 2021 - 05:34 PM.

[Wid1046]

D A T A, on 03 May 2021 - 04:37 PM, said:

Exactly, because most of them are already COD agility level, while the dire can not even move, and will not move even post patch, because +30% of nothing, is still nothing

That 40% buff to the Firestarter (the largest buff of all the lights) only decreases the time until it hits max speed by 0.15 seconds. The 30% buff to the Dire Wolf decreases the time until it hits max speed by 0.92 seconds. You'll notice the difference more on the Dire Wolf than the Firestarter. It'll be about 6 times more noticeable.

[Wid1046]

dario03, on 03 May 2021 - 04:56 PM, said:

That is old, was just a rough start work in progress, process is being changed.

Can we get some hint at what is likely being changed then? At least an idea of which mechs will likely be being buffed even if you don't want to tell us how? The mobility patch seems pretty unbalanced (still definitely an improvement though), so it would be good to know what we can expect in an additional month.

[dario03]

Wid1046, on 03 May 2021 - 05:41 PM, said:

Can we get some hint at what is likely being changed then? At least an idea of which mechs will likely be being buffed even if you don't want to tell us how? The mobility patch seems pretty unbalanced (still definitely an improvement though), so it would be good to know what we can expect in an additional month.

Its still being worked on so I can't really say for sure. Will probably be an ongoing process since we have to see exactly how much these agility changes effect things. I would lean towards mechs that received little or no buffs to agility but are currently not high performing would get quirks like survival early on.

[Wid1046]

dario03, on 03 May 2021 - 05:52 PM, said:

Its still being worked on so I can't really say for sure. Will probably be an ongoing process since we have to see exactly how much these agility changes effect things. I would lean towards mechs that received little or no buffs to agility but are currently not high performing would get quirks like survival early on.

That's fair. If you really don't know yet what will likely be buffed and are planning on doing a lot of the decisions once you see how the mobility patch affects things then it makes sense that you wouldn't really have details to give out. Thanks for at least giving a bit of insight on how things will be decided.

[Darian DelFord]

D A T A, on 03 May 2021 - 05:23 PM, said:

The only reason why people complain about lights getting rekt is because they do not understand how BROKEN OP is the skill tree survival on lights.
A flea full survival can take a dual heavy gauss in ct and remain alive. Commando is even more sick, because there is the so called "double stack" with the quirks: the tree actually quirks the quirks themselves, so if you put full survival on mechs like urban k9, panther9r, commando1d or, firestarter you get to some very riddicolous results in terms of how ******* tanky they become: a k9 could take 4ac20 in the ct and still live. You could shoot 4 gausses in the side torso of a panther, you would not kill it, you could shoot 2heavy gauss in the side torso, you would not even open it's armor.

What about the legs man.... what about the legs

If your gonna make that argument ya better include more facts :>

You can spec survival tree as you stated if you do not wish Back armor, on at all, you would have 5 points left. To my knowledge the only chassis that reliably run no back armor are assault and then come here and whine when they get cored out from the back. I dabbled with this when the re-scale initially happened, so did most light pilots. Only a few mechs really benefit from it and you really have to be quirked for it, most lights are not.

By fully speccing in the survival tree, you severely limit your firepower / sensor / mobility tree.... and I mean severely. For what an extra 6 armor and 15 or 16 structure. Which means your less mobile, have to be even closer to your target and your DPS drops off. Besides, most lights die more from a legging than they do a torso shot. The torso shot "usually" only happens after they are legged

If what you say is true, then every light would be doing it....... hmmm they are not.... it makes you wonder why?

But you also have to look at different aspects.... and this I think is where PGI went severely wrong. FP does not equal QP.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 May 2021 - 06:26 PM.

[TheAbsoluteMadman]

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

no. they should just not have physically big hitboxes.

an atlas weighs 3 times more than a jenner, so it should logically only be 3 times the volume of a jenner.

assaults needed proper scaling more than they needed increased mobility.

Not really, there's no way to get volume from weight/mass unless you knew the density of the mech's components. Even using the logic that an Atlas is 3 times the size of a jenner. It would not be 3 times the volume, it's volume would be closer to 27 times that of the jenner. You can't use real world logic to justify video game balance changes here since most things in this game defy physics. The changes look like they'll make more chassis fun to play again, and if some assaults are performing too well, I'm sure it'll get adjusted in time.

[Leone]

But why would you ever put anything in the sensor tree? I go minimum 21 pts in Survival on all my fully skilled mechs.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 03 May 2021 - 06:47 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Leone, on 03 May 2021 - 06:43 PM, said:

But why would you ever put anything in the sensor tree? I go minimum 21 pts in Survival on all my fully skilled mechs.

~Leone.

Radar Derp and Seismic, saved my arse more times than I can count.

[Leone]

Okay, I do miss my seismic. It's just far too much of an investment to grab it now. Never really cared for radar deprivation myself.

~Leone.

[Darian DelFord]

Leone, on 03 May 2021 - 06:53 PM, said:

Okay, I do miss my seismic. It's just far too much of an investment to grab it now. Never really cared for radar deprivation myself.

~Leone.

Honestly it really comes into play when you are the last one left with a couple of enemies left. Lets you know where you need to go in relation to their movement.

And I agree. the investment is steep.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 May 2021 - 07:03 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

no. they should just not have physically big hitboxes.

an atlas weighs 3 times more than a jenner, so it should logically only be 3 times the volume of a jenner.

assaults needed proper scaling more than they needed increased mobility.

I agree with the mech sizes has to be normalized, that the assaults ain't too big, and the lights ain't too small and with armor-quirks to compensate, that people don't have misplaced disgust on Streaks that are only doing what they are intended to.

But, define "3 times", because this is what the scale of atlas should be with respect to commandos.

Spoiler

Nightbird, on 03 March 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

increasing the mobility of assaults achieves the exact opposite of what the game needed which is role warfare.

I agree with the role-warfare for proper distinction, but it's just dumb that you think that mobility pass ain't needed. It's not fun lugging around sluggish mechs.

Khobai, on 03 May 2021 - 02:20 AM, said:

and increasing the mobility of lights also is not going to compensate them adequately because theres diminishing returns on mobility. giving lights more mobility is not going to have the desired effect. its not what lights need.

I kinda agree with this bit, only in a sense that mobility with lights could end up overkill. However I'm not exactly concerned considering that there's a lot would benefit from these changes, and quite frankly so what if they have overkill mobility anyways?

TheAbsoluteMadman, on 03 May 2021 - 06:29 PM, said:

Not really, there's no way to get volume from weight/mass unless you knew the density of the mech's components. Even using the logic that an Atlas is 3 times the size of a jenner. It would not be 3 times the volume, it's volume would be closer to 27 times that of the jenner. You can't use real world logic to justify video game balance changes here since most things in this game defy physics. The changes look like they'll make more chassis fun to play again, and if some assaults are performing too well, I'm sure it'll get adjusted in time.

The components are already interchangeable and it's just a matter of slots and tonnage, that means it's already accounted for.

About that 27 times, I don't understand where you got that number from.

The thing with the game is that it must also be fun, not just balanced. Like general agility, PGI kind of balanced it, but we have an unfun mess. Making the mechs smaller would make piloting the mechs easier and more fun. As in seriously, assaults gets easily congested in Solaris City.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 May 2021 - 10:15 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

The6thMessenger said:

About that 27 times, I don't understand where you got that number from.

Let's just say that 3^3 = 27 and seems to assume that something has grown 3 times in all three dimensions in relation to something else. I won't comment on why that thought is flawed or why your cube comparision graphic ultimately makes a very similar mistake.