230 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 04 May 2021 - 06:05 PM, said:

Jenners don't have armor quirks, they have structure. Messenger is implying something along the lines of Urbie armor treatment plus embiggening for all lights.

It would technically work from a statistical balance point of view, but it would be pretty boring IMO since it would really blur the line between the light and medium classes. I like that some lights act like mediums and some mediums act like lights, but they're special precisely because they're the exception rather than the rule.

Depends on how small it gets, lights should still be the smallest, but not that small. Likewise Assaults shouldn't be that large. I prefer Navid's Rescale.

Yeah it's boring, but seems to me that is what kind of needed. Making lights more forgiving to both pilots and shooter should make things more consistent and easier to balance. And none of that stigma to streaks now, the aversion to it just sad. I mean there's the lights abusing mechanics of being small as they terrorize assaults, but when an anti-light does it, it's bad.

[Krasnopesky]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 08:32 AM, said:

Another one who proclaims lights are fine/OP

https://leaderboard....earch?u=D+A+T+A

A third:

https://leaderboard....h?u=Krasnopesky

When have I ever proclaimed that lights are OP? That is just not true.

I think Light 'Mechs need to be improved so they are played more often. I do not think they are over-performing currently, nor have I thought that in the past.

Light 'Mechs need more agility and quirks (depending on the chassis) so they are worthwhile taking, are rewarding to play, and have defined uses and niches on the battlefield.

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

My claim is that over the course of 10065 QP games, he played 49% in assaults, compared with 21% in lights. If I am wrong, prove it and I'll say I am wrong.

21% QP matches in Light 'Mechs means I have played more QP matches in Light 'Mechs on this account than you have played in total across all weight classes on the account you're posting with.

More importantly you should note that the vast majority of my Assault 'Mech matches are in 2016 and 2017. From January 2018 onward (over 3 years now) Light 'Mechs are my most played weight class at ~43%, with the next highest weight class being Assaults at ~28%.

This isn't even considering the fact that I have played a lot more QP matches on my alternate accounts for the past few years than this account.

At the end of the day I play a lot of all the weight classes on this account and other accounts I own, in basically every game mode that exists in MWO. I use this knowledge and experience to make what I believe are informed recommendations to The Cauldron, the community, and PGI.

Edited by Krasnopesky, 04 May 2021 - 07:51 PM.

[Nightbird]

This is what I saw, sorry if it is wrong but it is what is visible.



Also like you I have more games under my belt than Jarl's suggest. I'm sure more matches in a light.



Not trying to start anything here, Dario said he'll make sure lights aren't nerfed and I'm leaving it to him.

[byebye360]

The **** comparing of games in light mechs is just silly and stupid, 1/5 of matches played on average is enough to have an valid opinion and trying to say no that isn't enough is being dishonest.

[dario03]

Kras isn't anti-light.

cougurt, on 04 May 2021 - 04:03 PM, said:

i'm not sure a light pilot's observation of the state of light mechs is necessarily going to be any less biased. i think ideally you would want someone who's experienced and proficient with all weight classes for the closest thing to an objective analysis. however, i have faith that there's enough collective experience among the cauldron that they will come to a reasonable consensus.

Most players I've known play everything. Some stick to one side of the weight scale more than others but I've only known a few die-hard I only play this class players. I'm known more as a light player because of comp and years ago when weight limits first came in I would take a light so the rest of the 4man could keep running assault/heavy. Also for a while now I mostly play lights when solo dropping in qp. However if you see me in fp I am often in assaults for the first wave or two, heavy or medium sometimes first but more often second or third, maybe a light last or third rarely second, but sometimes I don't even have a light in fp.

Edited by dario03, 04 May 2021 - 10:06 PM.

[cougurt]

dario03, on 04 May 2021 - 09:58 PM, said:

Most players I've known play everything. Some stick to one side of the weight scale more than others but I've only known a few die-hard I only play this class players. I'm known more as a light player because of comp and years ago when weight limits first came in I would take a light so the rest of the 4man could keep running assault/heavy. Also for a while now I mostly play lights when solo dropping in qp, however if you see me in fp I am often in assaults for the first wave or two, then a heavy or medium, maybe a light, but sometimes I don't even have one in fp.

to be clear, i think most skilled players know the game pretty well regardless of their preferred weight class, and can play anything at least competently. i just felt that nightbird's logic was a little contradictory.

[Nightbird]

cougurt, on 04 May 2021 - 10:49 PM, said:

to be clear, i think most skilled players know the game pretty well regardless of their preferred weight class, and can play anything at least competently. i just felt that nightbird's logic was a little contradictory.

Which part? The part that most lights are less agile than a medium? Or that lights will become harder to play after the changes? Lay down your views clearly and we'll see who is right post patch. I don't do hindsight.

[cougurt]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 11:10 PM, said:

Which part? The part that most lights are less agile than a medium? Or that lights will become harder to play after the changes? Lay down your views clearly and we'll see who is right post patch. I don't do hindsight.

the part where you asked for a light pilot to comment on whether or not lights are balanced, as opposed to an assault pilot. all i'm saying is that neither is likely to be totally impartial.

i don't have any particularly strong feelings about where i think each weight class currently sits, so i'll leave that to you guys.

[Nate]

Nightbird, on 04 May 2021 - 08:12 PM, said:

This is what I saw, sorry if it is wrong but it is what is visible.



Also like you I have more games under my belt than Jarl's suggest. I'm sure more matches in a light.



Not trying to start anything here, Dario said he'll make sure lights aren't nerfed and I'm leaving it to him.

A simple “I was wrong” doesn’t hurt anyone. Saying you don’t believe Kras, who has worked his *** off to help improve the game, is pretty petty. I don’t expect anything different from you in general though. I do expect you to somehow counter my suggestion to apologize and move on with some sort of nightbird pat on the back logic though. To keep it really simple:

1. Accept the facts presented to you
2. Quit spreading disingenuous lies based on literally your opinion
3. I will literally not take time to see what you choose to respond with because it probably isn’t worth it
4. I know Kras doesn’t need anyone to back up his credentials or his copious hours of research and debate over improving this game.

[Ekson Valdez]

MechWarriors, please do not derail this thread with personal attacks.

[Nightbird]

It's not an opinion that most lights will be less agile than a medium, is it literally what is in the Cauldron's proposal. Go through this thread, see what I have written. If mediums are more agile than heavies, heavies are more agile than assaults, why are lights not allowed to be more agile than mediums? I questioned the pilots who gave unsatisfactory answers. This is how public discourse works.

How many of you buy the explanation that lights should be less agile than mediums because they have a more powerful survival skill tree? Guess what, mediums have a more power survival tree than heavies, so shouldn't they be less agile? I guess assaults should be the most agile class? It's a non-answer.

Edited by Nightbird, 05 May 2021 - 07:02 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

If mediums are more agile than heavies, heavies are more agile than assaults, why are lights not allowed to be more agile than mediums?

Probably because balance requires it if ever.

But I honestly don't see it in the patch though that they are more or less agile generally. Light are typically at 90 - 110, a few at 130 turn rate, at between 150 to 225 torso twist rate, at 120 to 130 angle, there's one 90. 0.90 to 1.40s to max speed and under 1s to stop.

Mediums are at 60-65 to 100 turn rate, 100 and 130 torso turn rate, at 90 to 130 turn angle, eh at 1.3/1.5/1.7s time to max speed, and between 0.90 to 1.35s to stop.

I don't know what numbers are you looking at, but it seems to me that as said here: https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html the lights are typically ore agile than mediums by their proposal.

[Nightbird]

The6thMessenger, on 05 May 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

Probably because balance requires it if ever.

But I honestly don't see it in the patch though that they are more or less agile generally. Light are typically at 90 - 110, a few at 130 turn rate, at between 150 to 225 torso twist rate, at 120 to 130 angle, there's one 90. 0.90 to 1.40s to max speed and under 1s to stop.

Mediums are at 60-65 to 100 turn rate, 100 and 130 torso turn rate, at 90 to 130 turn angle, eh at 1.3/1.5/1.7s time to max speed, and between 0.90 to 1.35s to stop.

I don't know what numbers are you looking at, but it seems to me that as said here: https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html the lights are typically ore agile than mediums by their proposal.

The Vulcan is a medium, with 76 accel, 106 tun, 189 twist. It also has JJs.

The Firestarters that fill the same role as the Vulcan? 63 accel, 90 turn, 155 twist

The Javelins that fill the same role at 10 tons lighter, far less armor, structure, and weapons? 74-110-162

Cheeta, same role on the clan side? 68-85-155

Don't forget the OP Jenners, Ravens, and Osiris...

Less armor, less structure, less weapons, less agility = balance? Good one!

Edited by Nightbird, 05 May 2021 - 07:50 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Did we try asking the simple question:

Why are some lights less agile than the Vulcan?

[pattonesque]

Some heavies will have a slower torso twist speed than the Atlas

there is a reason for this and it's a good one

[YueFei]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 07:48 AM, said:

Less armor, less structure, less weapons, less agility = balance? Good one!

There's some additional factors you didn't include:
1.) Profile size, both frontal and side.
2.) Hitboxes.
3.) Hardpoint locations.

Just to give an example of (1), as a thought experiment:
Say Mech-A has a profile size of 200 square meters.
Mech-B has a profile size of 100 square meters.

Then even if Mech-A is more agile than Mech-B, it might not be able to use cover as effectively or juke incoming fire as easily as Mech-B.

I'm not necessarily saying that's the case in your comparisons between the Vulcan and certain Light mechs. But these are other factors to consider. Perhaps the planned re-scale is already factored into this. Again, the balancing is supposed to be a holistic thing, but unfortunately it can only be rolled out in phases.

[Nightbird]

YueFei, on 05 May 2021 - 08:49 AM, said:

There's some additional factors you didn't include:
1.) Profile size, both frontal and side.
2.) Hitboxes.
3.) Hardpoint locations.

Just to give an example of (1), as a thought experiment:
Say Mech-A has a profile size of 200 square meters.
Mech-B has a profile size of 100 square meters.

Then even if Mech-A is more agile than Mech-B, it might not be able to use cover as effectively or juke incoming fire as easily as Mech-B.

I'm not necessarily saying that's the case in your comparisons between the Vulcan and certain Light mechs. But these are other factors to consider. Perhaps the planned re-scale is already factored into this. Again, the balancing is supposed to be a holistic thing, but unfortunately it can only be rolled out in phases.

Firestarter has worse hitboxes, weapons locations, and if profile size alone was enough for less agility then Assaults should be the most agile mechs in the game.

[Nightbird]

pattonesque, on 05 May 2021 - 08:48 AM, said:

Some heavies will have a slower torso twist speed than the Atlas

there is a reason for this and it's a good one

Some sure, but ALL 30-35 ton lights with the same role as the vulcan and without extreme quirks to compensate, have less agility than the vulcan.

This includes mechs that are garbage tier, with nothing for quirks and weapon loadouts.

Edited by Nightbird, 05 May 2021 - 09:02 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 07:48 AM, said:

The Vulcan is a medium, with 76 accel, 106 tun, 189 twist. It also has JJs.

The Firestarters that fill the same role as the Vulcan? 63 accel, 90 turn, 155 twist

The Javelins that fill the same role at 10 tons lighter, far less armor, structure, and weapons? 74-110-162

Cheeta, same role on the clan side? 68-85-155

Don't forget the OP Jenners, Ravens, and Osiris...

Less armor, less structure, less weapons, less agility = balance? Good one!

I definitely agree that the general rule of thumb should be that the lighter a mech is the more agile it is.

But I also think there could be some outliers where a specific mech is super agile or clumsy for it's weight, if that is warranted by balance and flavour. It's fine if both the gargoyle and the urbanmech handles "like a medium" mech and so on. So if the vulcans special thing is going to be "more agile than most lights" I'm actually fine with that as long as it's balanced in other ways (lack of quirks or w/e).

In the end what matter is that all the mechs are made strong enough and fun enough to see play, if the reasons why they are strong and fun enough are as unique as possible for each mech that's a plus in my eyes.

As I see it the crucial thing here is not the exact values but that the project keeps iterating on them enough to get it right. The way they already talk about adjusting some weapons from the weapon balancing is a great sign there, same could happen with agility and quirks.

[Nightbird]

Sjorpha, on 05 May 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

So if the vulcans special thing is going to be "more agile than most lights" I'm actually fine with that as long as it's balanced in other ways (lack of quirks or w/e).

"Most" is fine, "All" is not especially with lights in the same role i.e. most agile in its class.