78 replies to this topic

[Captain Caveman DE]

1453 R, on 20 May 2021 - 11:40 AM, said:

Heh. To be blunt in turn, Captain Caveman?

A bad 'Mech, piloted with confidence and aggression, is a more valuable asset to your team than three good 'Mechs piloted with diffidence and timidity. Honestly, that's one of the key factors I use when I look at somebody's 'Mech in spectate mode and figure out whether to silently judge them or not - "Is this the loadout of a pilot that wants to bring harm to her enemies? Or is this the loadout of someone who's afraid of harm being brought to them?" That's the core of the reason why assault LRM boats typically (but not quite always) piss me off - most of them are clearly designed to avoid being harmed, rather than to harm their enemies.

A RAC ATAC Atlas is designed to bring harm to its enemies, even if it's not ideal for the role. MRM-blasting "My Rocket Launchers have Reloads" wall-of-explosives 'Mechs like Stalkers are designed to bring harm to their enemies. Many of these aren't the archetypical perfect use of their chassis, or The Best Possible user of a given weapon, but I'm willing to forgive quite a bit from a pilot that is working to bring harm to their enemy.

as you seem to adress me:
dude, read again. I was talking about the builds, and NOT about people using their mechs right or wrong.
and I even agree with your assessment. hope the following makes things clear.

OFC the "2rac2+lrm15,srm2,erLL,flamer and so on"-atlas who actually shoots stuff is gonna perform
"better" than the UAC-Madcat that hides in the backfield and is busy licking windows..


BUT it goes without saying that -with similar pilotskill and attitude- the UAC-Madcat will eat the Atlas 10times of 10. maybe 11 times of 10, it is that sure. on top, it's gonna outperform said Atlas in ANY situation you might find yourself in.

the POINT was that you pick & fit your mech to your playstyle;
if you wanna brawl, Atlas is a good choice. if you wanna rakkadakka, take an anni. ac2 spam?! dire or anni.
"sneaky ac-stuff or gauss?"-a fafnir.
you do NOT pick a mech and say: "those 2ac2 will turn my atlas into a longranger." all it does is turning you into a target and taking 100t of your teams roster that could have been used better.

pick a role, pick a mech, then build accordingly.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 20 May 2021 - 01:39 PM.

[Leone]

It looks like that's a pretty dedicated mid range atlas though. An srm 2 and a flamer for the brawl is just 3 slots and 2 and a half tonnes of brawl. Then there's the Extended Range Large Laser, a travesty of a choice, but the racs and lrms are solidly mid range.

You know, maybe trade that Laser for a PPC and it could be a fun build. Maybe add a Command Console and a Beagle Active Probe. For flair.

~Leone

P.S. Okay, apparently MWO has an issue with this build. Keep getting Error Code 52. Still, it sounds fun.

Edited by Leone, 20 May 2021 - 02:03 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Leone, on 20 May 2021 - 01:56 PM, said:

P.S. Okay, apparently MWO has an issue with this build. Keep getting Error Code 52. Still, it sounds fun.

My Atlas did that too. Strip the mech, save it, rebuild. Solved.

I did up my DC with LBX/20, 3 SRM/4, 2 ERML, Std 350, and full candy (Mk2 computer, Beagle, ECM, AMS). It does... alright.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 20 May 2021 - 02:30 PM.

[1453 R]

You miss the point, Captain. or I didn't make my own clear enough. Apologies.

I'd rather have Scrapiron in his "off/bad" Highlander that he's built and refined over many, many games - the 'Mech he knows, the 'Mech he likes, the 'Mech he's comfortable in and intimately knows the limits of - than I would any number of other folks piloting a bog-standard DakkaKitty Mack Tew they're driving specifically because the Internet told them that's what they need to drive in order to win fights.

It's similar in a lot of ways to the phenomenon of Netdecking, in competitive card games (a scene I have/had an extensive background in, and in which I was much better than I am at MWO). Back when there was such a thing as competitive TCG scenes in my area, I never worried about netdeckers. Netdeckers don't know their decks - they can only execute the strategies the Internet tells them to execute, any attempt to deviate from what their deck is 'supposed' to be doing muddies them up and throws them out of their groove. I can look up the counterplay to netdecks as easily as netdeckers can look up netdecks, and a deck I built my own-*** self that does what I want it to do, instead of what the Internet says I should do, lets me play headgames with bad netdeckers that gumps them and lets me win even though their four hundred dollar Golden Super Buy Internet deck is much more powerful than mine.

Because I know what the local scene is like (back when there was one T_T) and how it's different than what the netdeck was built to deal with, I know the structure of the game well enough to know what the netdeck is hoping to accomplish and what its win conditions are, and in many cases I know that netdeck better than the person playing it because I've spent my whole TCG timeframe building my own decks and learning the tools, instead of memorizing rote formulas. Netdeckers are casual players spending more money than they should trying to pretend to be top-level comps by blindly copying top-level comp decks without understanding why those decks are good in top-level comp, and what they might need to change to make the decks perform better in the slums of Local Sceneland - if they work at all.

MWO is similar. People like to play Top 'Mechs, copying builds from better players or following trends without taking the time to work on their own preferences, their own answers. One of the more successful builds my group runs is an ACW-2 loaded with a giant heaping mess of dissimilar Streak launchers (avoiding both ghost heat and long downtimes between shots), a TAG (for dealing with stealth armor and the overabundance of enemy ECM), and whichever random energy weapon somebody feels like, with a too-slow engine peeled out of other 'Mechs. Most folks'd look at this thing and just cry into their coffee at the 'waste of tonnage'. It almost never fails to perform well, because it was specifically built as a Fatbro Guard Dog to cripple lights chasing down juicy assault butts, and because the Streak missiles make it quite effective at high-speed engagements against weakened targets. In the early and mid game it parks itself near large, valuable chunks of assault metal and keeps them safe, and in the late game it breaks off and hunts wounded victims to finish off with constant barrages of homing missiles. It's a terrible 'Mech that plays exactly to what its pilots want to do - they know that 'Mech, they developed it together, and both of its regular users do very well in it.

It doesn't need to be the 130kph SRM missile bomber everybody figures is the only reason Arctic Wolves exist. It's as fast as it needs to be to do its job of Fatty Escort and lategame hunter-killer. And I'd rather play with this, or LL/LRM Highlanders, or anything else of the like, than with people who build Net'Mechs without any real attempt to adjust their 'Mech to how they play.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 21 May 2021 - 08:25 AM, said:

It's similar in a lot of ways to the phenomenon of Netdecking, in competitive card games

...

It doesn't need to be the 130kph SRM missile bomber everybody figures is the only reason Arctic Wolves exist. It's as fast as it needs to be to do its job of Fatty Escort and lategame hunter-killer. And I'd rather play with this, or LL/LRM Highlanders, or anything else of the like, than with people who build Net'Mechs without any real attempt to adjust their 'Mech to how they play.

Good analogy, hits the point exactly.

[Escef]

1453 R, on 21 May 2021 - 08:25 AM, said:

It's similar in a lot of ways to the phenomenon of Netdecking, in competitive card games (a scene I have/had an extensive background in, and in which I was much better than I am at MWO). Back when there was such a thing as competitive TCG scenes in my area, I never worried about netdeckers. Netdeckers don't know their decks - they can only execute the strategies the Internet tells them to execute, any attempt to deviate from what their deck is 'supposed' to be doing muddies them up and throws them out of their groove. I can look up the counterplay to netdecks as easily as netdeckers can look up netdecks, and a deck I built my own-*** self that does what I want it to do, instead of what the Internet says I should do, lets me play headgames with bad netdeckers that gumps them and lets me win even though their four hundred dollar Golden Super Buy Internet deck is much more powerful than mine.

I believe the expression was that a tier 1 deck with an incompetent pilot is an easy match win.

[Captain Caveman DE]

1453 R, on 21 May 2021 - 08:25 AM, said:

You miss the point, Captain. or I didn't make my own clear enough. Apologies.

I'd rather have Scrapiron in his "off/bad" Highlander that he's built and refined over many, many games - the 'Mech he knows, the 'Mech he likes, the 'Mech he's comfortable in and intimately knows the limits of - than I would any number of other folks piloting a bog-standard DakkaKitty Mack Tew they're driving specifically because the Internet told them that's what they need to drive in order to win fights.

It's similar in a lot of ways to the phenomenon of Netdecking, in competitive card games (a scene I have/had an extensive background in, and in which I was much better than I am at MWO). Back when there was such a thing as competitive TCG scenes in my area, I never worried about netdeckers. Netdeckers don't know their decks - they can only execute the strategies the Internet tells them to execute, any attempt to deviate from what their deck is 'supposed' to be doing muddies them up and throws them out of their groove. I can look up the counterplay to netdecks as easily as netdeckers can look up netdecks, and a deck I built my own-*** self that does what I want it to do, instead of what the Internet says I should do, lets me play headgames with bad netdeckers that gumps them and lets me win even though their four hundred dollar Golden Super Buy Internet deck is much more powerful than mine.

Because I know what the local scene is like (back when there was one T_T) and how it's different than what the netdeck was built to deal with, I know the structure of the game well enough to know what the netdeck is hoping to accomplish and what its win conditions are, and in many cases I know that netdeck better than the person playing it because I've spent my whole TCG timeframe building my own decks and learning the tools, instead of memorizing rote formulas. Netdeckers are casual players spending more money than they should trying to pretend to be top-level comps by blindly copying top-level comp decks without understanding why those decks are good in top-level comp, and what they might need to change to make the decks perform better in the slums of Local Sceneland - if they work at all.

MWO is similar. People like to play Top 'Mechs, copying builds from better players or following trends without taking the time to work on their own preferences, their own answers. One of the more successful builds my group runs is an ACW-2 loaded with a giant heaping mess of dissimilar Streak launchers (avoiding both ghost heat and long downtimes between shots), a TAG (for dealing with stealth armor and the overabundance of enemy ECM), and whichever random energy weapon somebody feels like, with a too-slow engine peeled out of other 'Mechs. Most folks'd look at this thing and just cry into their coffee at the 'waste of tonnage'. It almost never fails to perform well, because it was specifically built as a Fatbro Guard Dog to cripple lights chasing down juicy assault butts, and because the Streak missiles make it quite effective at high-speed engagements against weakened targets. In the early and mid game it parks itself near large, valuable chunks of assault metal and keeps them safe, and in the late game it breaks off and hunts wounded victims to finish off with constant barrages of homing missiles. It's a terrible 'Mech that plays exactly to what its pilots want to do - they know that 'Mech, they developed it together, and both of its regular users do very well in it.

It doesn't need to be the 130kph SRM missile bomber everybody figures is the only reason Arctic Wolves exist. It's as fast as it needs to be to do its job of Fatty Escort and lategame hunter-killer. And I'd rather play with this, or LL/LRM Highlanders, or anything else of the like, than with people who build Net'Mechs without any real attempt to adjust their 'Mech to how they play.

I agree AND disagree. did a lot of cardgames too, primarily dominion, the GoT cardgame and dicemasters (which is a cardgame..with dice on top), and at least those three good enough to win local tournaments in a not-sober-state^^

with that background we both seem to share, here's onto your analogy. I get it. I get what you see and mean.
and still I have to say things are the same AND different with mwo.

using your netdeck-analogy: yes, people copying decks exist, as well as copying mechs. ofc they do.
BUT
many (as in almost every competent mechjock) WILL arrive at similar optimised mech-configs. what you percieve as a "netmech" is something many of us "evolve" their build to.
two examples, to better understand: when ATMs were new, ppl ran different configs on the hunchieIIC with em - we didnt have a vaporeagle back then. from 4x6, 2x12 and so on, everything was tried by everybody.
many of us tinkering soon found that 3x9 offers us the best compromise of high alpha, good speed, ammo and armor, for a standard-QP-match at least (faction-mechs are a different thing).
soon after you saw 3x9atms everywhere on those hunchies, on huntsmen and later on that very vaporeagle you will view as a "netdeck".

likewise, the hellbringer with the introduction of hvyLL evolved very quickly into 4xerML+2LPL / 2HvyLL you see as a "netdeck", and even an official trialmech.

now; while there ARE people that copy those builds and may not know how to use them - many will learn it; as with netdecks, this is hardly rocket-science and a just matter of understanding, training and willingness to learn.
MANY MORE however 'evolved' their builds to said optimised mech themselves - its just we all came to a very similar and in many cases identical build, the "natural way". and yeah - we DO know how to use them, as we learned that by "playing, adjusting, playing".

and here we are again full circle; a person familiar with a good mechbuild WILL clobber a similar skilled person in a worse (or not optimised) build many times over.
all good and friendly here, so no worries - but I'm offering you to proof my point ofc. send me sth ingame;
you choose your mech (or just tonnage if you don't wanna tell the mech) and the map, I chose a mech of similar weight and over a few rounds and a beer or 2 we can find out what's what

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 21 May 2021 - 10:16 AM.

[Vlad Ward]

It's the same dumb, circular argument. Good 'Mech vs Good Pilot. Por que no los dos, Mech-punks. Por que no los dos.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 May 2021 - 10:42 AM.

[1453 R]

Vlad Ward, on 21 May 2021 - 10:42 AM, said:

It's the same dumb, circular argument. Good 'Mech vs Good Pilot. Por que no los dos, Mech-punks. Por que no los dos.

Suppose the argument I'm really trying to make, and circling back to the original point of this thread, is that "Bad 'Mech" is not synonymous with "Off-Meta 'Mech". Not for the overwhelming majority of the game. A good pilot can be running a good 'Mech that simply doesn't look like somebody else's good 'Mech. The existence of the Angry Kitty Mack Tew does not mean all other assault 'Mechs are invalid. People here like to hyperfocus on one, single, 'Objectively Superior' decision they then claim is the only valid 'Good' choice, without ever wondering whether a pilot who's spent time building a more versatile, less focused fit because Puglandia is a fetid swamp of chaos where one simply cannot rely on the same game plan 100% of the time is maybe doing just fine.

A good pilot in a 'Mech they know and trust is better than a tonnage advantage. A generalist 'Mech that can adapt to Puglandians doing stupid **** because they're Puglandians is better than a hyperfocused one-button build that requires very specific situations and circumstances to work. Those hyperfocused builds work in High Skill High Organization games because those teams can coordinate to force the circumstances they built themselves to be unnaturally good in. Puglandians have no such edge and are much better suited to being at least minimally viable in as many ways as they can. Or at least, that's my thoughts on the matter, for however little they're worth.

@Cap: Nah, no need for a duel. Like I said, I know I'm hot trash in an actual cockpit. My gunnery is a 2 of 10 on the HBS BT scale, if that. I just don't like to see people dismiss good pilots in good 'Mechs as just being a bunch of ignorant useless "wastes of tonnage" because they don't think the 'Mech is the best 'Mech. There's a stark difference between 'waste of tonnage' and 'off-meta', and that difference is usually in how many tons of extraneous LRM ammo you've got loaded. Hueh.

[Vlad Ward]

Honestly, dude, Tier 5 may be a special brand of chaos, but it feels like the narrative you've constructed doesn't match my experience with the game at all - and I was PSR reset in December, so I spent some time grinding through all the other Tiers.

There are absolutely builds out there which are hyper-specialized to the point of irrelevance, but that's not actually the case for ~90% of meta 'Mechs. The Dakka-cat you keep bringing up is a solid, mid-range bruiser which functions well on any map in the game. You literally point and click on anything from 0-600m away. It is the definition of a generalist build.

LRM Atlases aren't bad because they're "a waste of an Assault slot." They're bad because they only have 1 torso with missile hardpoints and zero ability to reposition while using weapons that are only effective at mid-long range. LRM Fafnirs are 100 tons and actually good.

[Leone]

Except LRMs are effective at short range, if you consider face-hugging~270 to be short and 270~550 to be mid as I do, there's a nice sweet spot at 200m where folk back away from all the lasers to get a face full'a missiles. They are, arguably more effective at short range than long range.

~Leone

[1453 R]

Eh. For one I'm a bored old ***** who likes to type.

And for two, up there at the lofty heights of T1, you've got people who know what they're doing. You can generally count on your teammates to not be complete dunderheads, and to move with a faint modicum of aggression. Down here in 5? No such assurances. One cannot count on anyone in low-tier play doing anything - if you aren't prepared to do it your own-*** self, it likely won't get done. People bringing less focused builds they're more comfortable with that can do a little of many things can help when you can't count on your teammates not being chimpanzees.

[Vlad Ward]

1453 R, on 21 May 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

Eh. For one I'm a bored old ***** who likes to type.

I can appreciate that for sure .

1453 R, on 21 May 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

up there at the lofty heights of T1, you've got people who know what they're doing. You can generally count on your teammates to not be complete dunderheads [...] People bringing less focused builds they're more comfortable with that can do a little of many things can help when you can't count on your teammates not being chimpanzees.

I realize this is going to make me sound like a total ****, but not even close lmao. Tier 1 is not the Elysian Fields some folks imagine. It is absolutely still a total fustercluck. The biggest difference in Tier 1 is that people actually pull the trigger on occasion and don't stand still when getting shot at. That's really it.

Years of stale balance, the death of CW/FP, and the progressive nerfing of anything fun have left a huge vacuum at the top. My fingers remain crossed that the development we're seeing continues and we keep pulling people back in.

Anyway, regarding 'Mech Builds, I agree in principle for sure. I just think we define "A 'Mech that can do many things" a little differently. For example, I'd consider both the Dakka Cat and the Laser Hellbringer excellent generalists. They only have one type of weapon system, but those weapons are effective across a wide variety of ranges and situations.

[JediPanther]

Surefoot, on 19 May 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

That's a complete waste of tonnage, and a huge chunk or armor that will sit behind a rock for the whole match until pushed upon, instead of being on the front line where assaults belong. Not saying it matters much in tier 5 or QP in general due to the randomness of the MM but really, that's bad for the team.
And like others mentioned, this loadout is seriously undergunned for a 100 tonner. If i turn a corner and suddenly face THIS atlas, i'll laugh and just brawl it to death, this is not the expected response from a Surprise Atlas...


This is the loadout of an Archer 2R. 70t, with better missile quirks, and which moves faster. In usage i'd drop the two mediums as they dont match the range of anything else on that build and use that for a 300LE and another DHS, for better sustain.

It's funny you assume that it is "sit behind a rock for the whole match" while I just use the lrms as bait to get the enemy to close range to the rest of the team. Tactics are a lostech concept.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

JediPanther, on 26 May 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

It's funny you assume that it is "sit behind a rock for the whole match" while I just use the lrms as bait to get the enemy to close range to the rest of the team. Tactics are a lostech concept.

no offense, but that reads like "tactics 101" by D*ck Dastardly, of Wacky Races

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 26 May 2021 - 01:08 PM.

[1453 R]

JediPanther, on 26 May 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

It's funny you assume that it is "sit behind a rock for the whole match" while I just use the lrms as bait to get the enemy to close range to the rest of the team. Tactics are a lostech concept.

My brother picked up a Broiler from the Hero sale last week. He's been running it with three LRM-15s, two large pulse lasers, and the two cUAC/20s God intended on the Broiler. I tell people at the match start "Lure enemies to our LRM boat, he's got multiple AC/20s". The answer I've received more than once is "I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the words "Lurm Boat", bruh..."

Au contraire, terrible T5 randies. I absolutely understand the term 'Missile Boat'. I also understand that a 'Mech which can contribute at all points of the game - the initial peeky-pokey, chickendickery Hide Behind Any Available Rock phase as well as the final Bloody Gory Actual 'Mech Fight phase - and which is furthermore able to defend itself with violence and authority from anyone who rushes the "Lurm Boat" is a much better LRM machine than any Badyear Blimp Stalker or too-many-lurms Fatlas. That 'Mech has accrued north of a dozen 1200-damage games; we call it the Backpacker because it carries the team to victory so often.

I don't mind someone putting an LRM launcher or two on their Atlas. 'Mechs that size can afford to spare some space for LRMs to pepper and soften targets with, contribute when it's a bad idea to push and brawl. I do mind seeing a Cyclops or a Battlemaster or a Stalker or whatever else with nothing but LRMs, run by someone allergic to getting their own locks and who thinks being the last one alive in every match means they're smarter than everyone else, rather than meaning they're the most useless and easily ignorable lump of metal on the field.

The best way to LRM boat is to do it whilst conserving your AC/20 ammo for things that assume you're an LRM boat.

[JediPanther]

1453 R, on 27 May 2021 - 01:31 PM, said:

My brother picked up a Broiler from the Hero sale last week. He's been running it with three LRM-15s, two large pulse lasers, and the two cUAC/20s God intended on the Broiler. I tell people at the match start "Lure enemies to our LRM boat, he's got multiple AC/20s". The answer I've received more than once is "I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the words "Lurm Boat", bruh..."

Au contraire, terrible T5 randies. I absolutely understand the term 'Missile Boat'. I also understand that a 'Mech which can contribute at all points of the game - the initial peeky-pokey, chickendickery Hide Behind Any Available Rock phase as well as the final Bloody Gory Actual 'Mech Fight phase - and which is furthermore able to defend itself with violence and authority from anyone who rushes the "Lurm Boat" is a much better LRM machine than any Badyear Blimp Stalker or too-many-lurms Fatlas. That 'Mech has accrued north of a dozen 1200-damage games; we call it the Backpacker because it carries the team to victory so often.

I don't mind someone putting an LRM launcher or two on their Atlas. 'Mechs that size can afford to spare some space for LRMs to pepper and soften targets with, contribute when it's a bad idea to push and brawl. I do mind seeing a Cyclops or a Battlemaster or a Stalker or whatever else with nothing but LRMs, run by someone allergic to getting their own locks and who thinks being the last one alive in every match means they're smarter than everyone else, rather than meaning they're the most useless and easily ignorable lump of metal on the field.

The best way to LRM boat is to do it whilst conserving your AC/20 ammo for things that assume you're an LRM boat.

Not all lrm boats have ac 20 but if you've ever seen my posts on the catapults you know I'm a firm believer in a lrm-er having back up weapons and getting your own dam locks. Sounds like your bro is using some thing like this:
<a href="https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=513&l=b70329e773a54b30c80d4af720f7556cdd6c680f">BOILER</a>

I also hate the hide n lrm at every thing types. Most don't even have a uav or (c)bap. I just laugh when I spectate a lrm only mech getting face hugger by an enemy mech;even more so when it's an assault. 80-100 tons and you didn't even fit one small laser? Yea you deserve to be farmed.

[JediPanther]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 26 May 2021 - 01:03 PM, said:

no offense, but that reads like "tactics 101" by D*ck Dastardly, of Wacky Races

That show was great. Muttly was a riot. It sucks that wb hardly uses any of the classic hb ips except for maybe back ground cameos like in the newer space jam just to keep copyright on the characters by going "see,we used it! It's still ours." even Disney has made use of some of the clasic h-b sound effects. Most noticeably Quickdraw's Kabong sound fx in Ducktales.

[PocketYoda]

Vlad Ward, on 21 May 2021 - 02:15 PM, said:

Honestly, dude, Tier 5 may be a special brand of chaos, but it feels like the narrative you've constructed doesn't match my experience with the game at all - and I was PSR reset in December, so I spent some time grinding through all the other Tiers.

There are absolutely builds out there which are hyper-specialized to the point of irrelevance, but that's not actually the case for ~90% of meta 'Mechs. The Dakka-cat you keep bringing up is a solid, mid-range bruiser which functions well on any map in the game. You literally point and click on anything from 0-600m away. It is the definition of a generalist build.

LRM Atlases aren't bad because they're "a waste of an Assault slot." They're bad because they only have 1 torso with missile hardpoints and zero ability to reposition while using weapons that are only effective at mid-long range. LRM Fafnirs are 100 tons and actually good.

I keep telling everyone here, tier 5 and 4 are nothing like tier 2 and 1.. They are completely different games