26 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

https://www.mwocomp.com/patches.html

It is good that the medium Mechs get better mobility across the board, a few decisions are confusing however....

The Crab and Bushwacker are clearly the losers here, being the among the least agile Mechs, around Vapor Eagle level. The vast majority is far more agile.

Now I am aware of the firepower and good geometry of those Mechs (though it has to be noted that the torso missile pods of the Bushwacker ruin that geometry advantage).
Their quirks however are not good enough to offset the mobility disadvantage.

I think the Cauldron might judge the Crab and Bushwacker based on their past moments of glory. And they will probably not be terrible in the future, yet they will fall behind, sharing a fate that has currently befallen many medium Mechs...
Wasn't the point of the Cauldron changes to avoid just this from happening?

[Spheroid]

FLG 01, on 19 May 2021 - 09:25 AM, said:

Now I am aware of the firepower and good geometry of those Mechs (though it has to be noted that the torso missile pods of the Bushwacker ruin that geometry advantage).
Their quirks however are not good enough to offset the mobility disadvantage.

You state opinion as fact. Also what good is agility if the loadout does not utilize it. Are RACwhackers in need of violent twisting and turning?

The idea is to buff the under performers. If you buff Crabs and Bushwhackers as well as other mediums how does this narrow the gap?

Edited by Spheroid, 19 May 2021 - 12:08 PM.

[Kaptain]

[color=#EEEEEE]Starting this month, we will begin increasing the Agility/Mobility of most 'Mechs. This initial pass covers 8 chassis for a total of 48 variants. The remainder of the 'Mechs will receive similar changes in the June patch.[/color]

[letir]

Considering that they have both geometry and durability quirks, low agility seems adequate balancing factor.

[FLG 01]

Spheroid, on 19 May 2021 - 10:26 AM, said:

The idea is to buff the under performers. If you buff Crabs and Bushwhackers as well as other mediums how has this narrowed the gap?

Underperformers are supposed to be buffed in order to level the playing field. Leaving some behind in the future just because they currently perform well enough – mind you, only the 6MPL Crab is actually S-Tier; the others are good, not stellar – defeats the idea of giving all Mechs an equal chance.

If the BSW and CRB are still fine I am happy. I am just not sure about that when almost every other medium can run rings around them. Also, I do not want them Vulcan-levels of agility. Again, just enough to get a level playing field.

Agility is an important trait for mediums, since the vast majority of Mechs they encounter outgun them; that is true for any Bushwacker config as well. Actually, since the Bushwacker’s greatest strength is the narrow frontal profile, all variants are very much dependent on the ability to turn its front to the enemy (and its wounded flanks away from the enemy).

letir, on 19 May 2021 - 10:44 AM, said:

Considering that they have both geometry and durability quirks, low agility seems adequate balancing factor.

Only if the balance between those elements is done right. That's what I am not sure about.

[letir]

FLG 01, on 19 May 2021 - 10:56 AM, said:

Only if the balance between those elements is done right. That's what I am not sure about.

It's alredy in the game. These 'Mechs don't need to twist so much, dancing and light wiggle is enough to spread damage around.

[FLG 01]

letir, on 19 May 2021 - 11:08 AM, said:

It's alredy in the game. These 'Mechs don't need to twist so much, dancing and light wiggle is enough to spread damage around.

I am more concerned with acceleration.

[ScrapIron Prime]

So far I've taken my Centurion D and Centurion AL for a drive. I'm loving their improved ability to twist damage and get out of the way. they were my favorite mediums before the patch, they're even better now.

I can see the pulse crabs benefiting from the agility buff, they do a lot of peek and twist. But RAC whackers and ER crabs get minimal benefit from it, yes. Still... adjusting mech performance WITHOUT regard to the meta for the chassis is a good sign. It might allow the meta to evolve a bit.

[Gas Guzzler]

The other question.... is should an Atlas actually twist faster than mediums?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

The other question.... is should an Atlas actually twist faster than mediums?

I think you mean "twist faster than heavies". Because among mediums, only the Hunchback and Vapor Eagle will be slower at twisting after all the patches are in. The Atlas will be middle of the pack with heavy mechs.

And yeah, I think it should be on par with Heavy mechs. The Atlas is supposed to be the toughest of the tough by Battletech lore. Cranking its torso twist speed will allow a good player to soak more damage.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 May 2021 - 12:27 PM, said:

The other question.... is should an Atlas actually twist faster than mediums?

Medium? In the document, only the vapor eagle twists slower, at 108 versus 110 on the Atlas. The Vapor twists perfectly fine today and spreads damage like a champ so all is well?

Edit. I see the hunchback IIC in the document now. Looking at heavies, only a few mechs are slower and most of those like to stare as well. As a bottom heavy mech with low low mounts, I'm not too bothered by the Atlas. I'm more surprised the Basp and MCIIs are getting buffed.

Edited by Nightbird, 19 May 2021 - 12:49 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 19 May 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Medium? In the document, only the vapor eagle twists slower, at 108 versus 110 on the Atlas. The Vapor twists perfectly fine today and spreads damage like a champ so all is well?

Edit. I see the hunchback IIC in the document now. Looking at heavies, only a few mechs are slower and most of those like to stare as well. As a bottom heavy mech with low low mounts, I'm not too bothered by the Atlas. I'm more surprised the Basp and MCIIs are getting buffed.

Yeah I agree due to the reasons you stated about the Atlas.

The MCII and Blood Asp buffs are pretty minor. Hop in an NSR-9FC... the current one in game is pretty close to what they will be buffed to. Spoiler: Still a slug.

[East Indy]

Nightbird, on 19 May 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

I'm more surprised the Basp and MCIIs are getting buffed.

Is it for variants not able to mount the Ultra AC hailstorm? That'd make some sense at least...otherwise, woof, bad idea.

[Gas Guzzler]

East Indy, on 19 May 2021 - 01:44 PM, said:

Is it for variants not able to mount the Ultra AC hailstorm? That'd make some sense at least...otherwise, woof, bad idea.

The buffs are pretty minor so I'm not worried at all.

[Pillowseller]

"Not sure"

FLG 01, on 19 May 2021 - 10:56 AM, said:

If the BSW and CRB are still fine I am happy. I am just not sure about that when almost every other medium can run rings around them. Also, I do not want them Vulcan-levels of agility. Again, just enough to get a level playing field.

Isn't "not sure" a really good state? If one can tell a mech is good or bad without even experiencing it, it must be quite unbalanced.

[w0qj]

I've suggested in another thread, and may I highlight this again for the parts pertinent to Medium mech mobility:

http://mwomercs.com/...-circa-may-2021

...
2. Medium/Lights
The mobility buff for Medium/Lights is not nearly as dramatic.

But hopefully Cauldron can find a raison d'etre for Mediums.
Mediums in the year 2020 was stuck in neverland: Not as fast/mobile as Lights, and not enough armour to take on the Heavy mechs.

Proposal: Perhaps Cauldron can consider to dramatically increase the Anchor Turn Speed for Medium mechs?
==>Result: Medium cannot outrun Lights, but can still outflank them due to greater Anchor Turn Speed.
==>Result: Medium cannot outgun Heavy, and Medium has less armor, but Medium can run circles around Heavy and outflank Heavy due to greater Anchor Turn Speed.
ie: Lights run a high speed strafe at Medium, and then Medium does QUICK Anchor Turn to hit back at the Light mech in the back. Medium becomes the "counter-punch" style vs Lights.

Result of this above proposal:
Lights have higher speed.
Mediums have increased Anchor Turn Speed for flanking both Lights and Heavy.

[Khobai]

extra mobility doesnt even help a lot of mediums and lights. especially slower ones.

some need armor/structure quirks instead because theyre played more like escorts for heavier mechs rather than flankers/skirmishers.

this is why we need role warfare to define roles for each mech. and then give them quirks that reinforce that role. instead of treating everything the same and acting like every mech benefits equally from more mobility.

I would also like to see all mediums get a +5% max speed buff as well. the way the engine weight curve works it screws mediums because they spend a higher percentage of their total tonnage on engine weight than heavies do. they should get slightly more performance out of their engines to make up for that. Id be fine with an anchor turn buff as well.

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2021 - 05:09 PM.

[Leone]

Nonsense. Engine weight to tonnage works out so that both a heavy and a medium going the same speed've spent the same percentage of tonnage on their engine.

~Leone.

Edit: I stand corrected! You're even more wrong.

Edited by Leone, 20 May 2021 - 08:47 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Leone, on 20 May 2021 - 07:01 PM, said:

Nonsense. Engine weight to tonnage works out so that both a heavy and a medium going the same speed've spent the same percentage of tonnage on their engine.

~Leone.

Not quite. The larger the mech, the larger the tax on the same speed.

a 50 ton mech with a 200 rated engine moves at the same speed as a 75 ton mech with a 300 rated engine. Mathematically, this is about as efficient as it gets. The 50 ton mech spends 13.5 tons on this (27% of its total mass), while the 75 ton mech spends 25 tons (33%). This is for standard engines. XL would make it 9.5 tons (19%) and 15.5 tons (21%) respectively.

if you jack up the movement rate, it gets worse. A 50 tonner with a 250 engine uses 18.5 tons (37%) for standard or 12.5 tons (25%) for XL, while a 75 ton mech with a 375 engine pays 45.5 tons (61%) for standard or 26.5 tons (35%) for XL.

[Nightbird]

This is how it works IRL. Tanks over 100 tons can't fit the engines powerful enough to move it, and thus don't get built.