212 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

^ Well said.

[Khobai]

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2.) Umm, wait, what? First off no. Second, are you saying we should not allow skilled players in the game? I am beggining to get worried about your objectives here.

no im saying matchmaker doesnt evaluate the skill of groups properly. it is a matchmaker problem.

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3.) Yes. More likely to utilize something everybody has access to. Not their fault if'n others choose not to. No advantage

the reason why doesnt matter. all thats relevant is that non-groups use comms less than groups so groups have an advantage.

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4.) See 3. Also wrong, but if not, see three.

its not wrong at all. i even played a game with ash a few days ago where he called the drop. if a solo player was on the team instead of ash its unlikely anyone wouldve called the drop at all. players that play in groups are more likely to take charge of a drop than players that dont play in groups.

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5.) Wait, didn't we already go over this? I feel like we did. Anyways, I've developed tactics that work for me and have practiced them extensively. Does that mean I should be allowed into a mech anywhere near you? Seriously. This sentence alone is just... ugh

were not talking about tactics that work just for you. were talking about lance tactics. groups absolutely employ lance based tactics, ive seen it, and its an advantage. ive seen lances stick together and focus fire and do so with a coherency greater than your typical solo player. I saw a hilarious group of urbies all work together and obliterate the enemy team. solos in urbies could not have achieved that.

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6.) Nothing to do with groups.

Yes it does. Matchmaker not being able to balance groups has everything to do with groups being unbalanced.

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7.) No, sometimes people group up who play during the same times!

no. its syncdropping. its not a coincidence when you see 6 people from the same unit on a team.

especially if you see them on the opposite team the next game because their sync drop attempt failed.

furthermore syncdropping can only occur if groups are allowed so if you get rid of groups you get rid of the syncdropping exploit.

Vxheous, on 07 June 2021 - 11:22 PM, said:

Except none of those point actually apply to any of the groups I run, and my groups tend to slaughter just about everyone.

the very fact youre telling me your group slaughters just about everyone proves my point that groups are unbalanced in solo queue. you just admitted it lmao.

if groups were balanced properly youd only be winning about half the time not slaughtering everyone.

there must be a reason your group slaughters everyone though. if I didnt list the reason please share it.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 12:03 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:47 PM, said:

the very fact youre telling me your group slaughters just about everyone proves my point that groups are unbalanced in solo queue. you just admitted it lmao.

if groups were balanced properly youd only be winning about half the time not slaughtering everyone.

You can't balance a world champion group unless you have another world champion group on the other side, so yeah, we're gonna break the matchmaker. Luckily for most, there's an extremely small chance of actually running into one of these groups unless we're playing in low population time.

Edited by Vxheous, 08 June 2021 - 12:04 AM.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 08 June 2021 - 12:02 AM, said:

You can't balance a world champion group unless you have another world champion group on the other side, so yeah, we're gonna break the matchmaker. Luckily for most, there's an extremely small chance of actually running into one of these groups unless we're playing in low population time.

that sounds like a good argument for why you shouldnt be allowed to group up.

if you put 2 world champions on each team the teams would be better balanced than allowing 4 world champions on one team

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:06 AM, said:

that sounds like a good argument for why you shouldnt be allowed to group up.

if you put 2 world champions on each team the teams would be better balanced than allowing 4 world champions on one team

Nope, because everyone should be allowed to play with their friends, regardless of our skill level. If we wanted to fight each other, we would just go into private lobbies (and we do that often enough).

Edited by Vxheous, 08 June 2021 - 12:07 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 07 June 2021 - 11:47 PM, said:

its not wrong at all. i even played a game with ash a few days ago where he called the drop. if a solo player was on the team instead of ash its unlikely anyone wouldve called the drop.

It is very, very wrong.

Any player in the game has had the ability to call a drop in MWO at any time.

Trying to claim calling drops is related/locked/centric to groups - that's outright misinformation.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 08 June 2021 - 12:12 AM.

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 08 June 2021 - 12:07 AM, said:

Nope, because everyone should be allowed to play with their friends, regardless of our skill level. If we wanted to fight each other, we would just go into private lobbies (and we do that often enough).

so you should be allowed to play with your friends. but i shouldnt be allowed to not play against groups?

you just sound selfishly entitled. like what you want matters more than what other people want.

thats exactly why we need two separate queues.

justcallme A S H, on 08 June 2021 - 12:10 AM, said:

It is very, very wrong.

Any player in the game has had the ability to call a drop in MWO at any time.

Trying to claim calling drops is related/locked/centric to groups - that's outright misinformation.

and yet solos dont do it. again whats relevant is the fact they dont do it. while groups do. that gives groups an advantage.

unless something changes that suddenly makes solos call drops more often then groups will always have an advantage in that regard.

it absolutely is related/centric to groups when groups are far more likely to do it than solos.

and certainly the command wheel and other tools in the game could be improved for solos that may not want to use voice comms. thats certainly an area that game could improve.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 12:30 AM.

[Capt Deadpool]

Khobai, do you know what Jarl's List is? It makes it pretty easy to see who 'knows what they are talking about' and who absolutely doesn't....like incredibly, ridiculously easy. You can even see stats prior to the merge of group and solo queues. I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I know guys who are completely wasted drunk in meme mechs who regularly manage significantly better W/L and K/D than you... the other day I shot you in the back multiple times on Mining Collective before you even realized you were being shot and then I finished you off with an arty after you finally turned around to face me....

Like I said, I am not trying to be a jerk but you are completely in the thrall of the Dunning-Kruger Effect right now. There are zero people playing this game who would think you understand the game better than Ash, regardless of how you rephrase or reshape your arguments, unless they are unaware who Ash/EmP are. It doesn't mean you cannot have differing opinions or that whomever's stats are higher is always 'right', but these are all things you should take into consideration before you decide whether the objective of your post should be 'attempting to be right' versus perhaps trying to learn from more experienced players or exploring some things that you are 'unaware that you are unaware of'.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 08 June 2021 - 12:29 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

and yet solo dont do it. again whats relevant is the fact they dont do it. while groups do. that gives groups an advantage.

Not sure what you're saying it accurate there either. I've been playing the game regularly enough that and can think of a dozen regular PUG commanders at the T1-T3 level.

Most will of course happily sit back if I'm in a drop solo or grouped for obvious reasons.


On an Alt - albeit a lot is questionable - there is quite a lot of comms and drop calls going on. In fact I'd say too much which tends to confuse newer players when the guy with 20,000 games in Tier 5 gets his "I'm a Military Vet" going...

[Leone]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:16 AM, said:

so you should be allowed to play with your friends. but i shouldnt be allowed to not play against groups?

Leone, on 02 June 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

You aren't. We've had Solaris 7 for a while now. If you wanna duel, we've a queue for that. (Well, seven queues actually,) but I hate to break it to you, but if you drop in quickplay you will end up facing twelve mechs all on the same team. In the same 'group' as it were. They've comms, they share radar, they can and will work together.

~Leone.

At this point your arguments seem to be boiling down to you not wanting to face better pilots. I... dunno what to tell you, but any decent matchmaker'll set you up against better pilots as often as not. The only answer is to get better until there's no one left more skilled. Trying to chase away all the other players is a losing proposition.

I know it seems like it'd be more fun, but trust me, if the queues dry up it wont be.

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 08 June 2021 - 12:46 AM.

[Khobai]

Capt Deadpool, on 08 June 2021 - 12:26 AM, said:

Khobai, do you know what Jarl's List is? It makes it pretty easy to see who 'knows what they are talking about' and who absolutely doesn't....like incredibly, ridiculously easy. You can even see stats prior to the merge of group and solo queues. I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I know guys who are completely wasted drunk in meme mechs who regularly manage significantly better W/L and K/D than you... the other day I shot you in the back multiple times on Mining Collective before you even realized you were being shot and then I finished you off with an arty after you finally turned around to face me....

Like I said, I am not trying to be a jerk but you are completely in the thrall of the Dunning-Kruger Effect right now. There are zero people playing this game who would think you understand the game better than Ash, regardless of how you rephrase or reshape your arguments, unless they are unaware who Ash/EmP are. It doesn't mean you cannot have differing opinions or that whomever's stats are higher is always 'right', but these are all things you should take into consideration before you decide whether the objective of your post should be 'attempting to be right' versus perhaps trying to learn from more experienced players or exploring some things that you are 'unaware that you are unaware of'.

Ash's opinion is clearly biased around wanting to play in groups. Why would anyone who doesnt want to play against groups listen to him? It is a diametrically opposed viewpoint.

If I played in groups with other good players my W/L and K/D ratios would be better too. All of your stats get enhanced when you play in groups. I choose not to play in groups. And I do not want to play against groups either. Yet I am forced to.

Its not the first time weve been here. Once again the game had mixed queues in 2014. It made so many people unhappy they had to separate the queues into solo and group queue.Nothing has changed since 2014 that suddenly makes it okay to have a mixed queue again. We still dont have a working matchmaker. All of the same reasons mixed queue didnt work in 2014 still apply today.

The only thing thats changed is that the group queue, faction play, and competitive play experiments all failed miserably. In no small part thanks to the players that belong to EMP and other comp groups. They destroyed their own gamemodes by preying on weaker groups and pugs and chasing players out of those gamemodes. Its insane to put those players into solo queue after what they did to all the group gamemodes. Especially without any kindve working matchmaker? Youre just asking for a repeat of whats already happened multiple times...

You wanna have groups in solo queue? You need working matchmaker. Otherwise separate the queues. I dont think thats an unreasonable ask.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 12:44 AM.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:35 AM, said:

Ash's opinion is clearly biased around wanting to play in groups. Why would anyone who doesnt want to play against groups listen to him?

Ash (as well as I) was very opposed to the merging of the solo and group queues when it happened, so much so that we ended up with a very extended forum break. That being said, the "Soup" queue overall has helped with player population, and player retention to the point where I now acknowledge that it was probably the best thing for what the game population was at the time. Should the population continue to rebound, perhaps having a split queue might be viable again, assuming there was a way to dissuade groups (particularly streamer groups) from sync dropping into solo queue to dodge other groups like the way it was before. Group queue population died not because there wasn't enough groups around to play, but there were not enough groups willing to play in group queue, with all the sync drop dodging going on.

Edited by Vxheous, 08 June 2021 - 12:41 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:35 AM, said:

Ash's opinion is clearly biased around wanting to play in groups. Why would anyone who doesnt want to play against groups listen to him? It is a diametrically opposed viewpoint

Huh?

As you are already fully aware, I pointed out -> HERE <-- that I am opposed to the Group/Solo Q merger and have been since it came out.

Do you you really expect anyone to take you seriously if you're going to continually claim things that are untrue?

[Khobai]

Vxheous, on 08 June 2021 - 12:39 AM, said:

Ash (as well as I) was very opposed to the merging of the solo and group queues when it happened, so much so that we ended up with a very extended forum break. That being said, the "Soup" queue overall has helped with player population, and player retention to the point where I now acknowledge that it was probably the best thing for what the game population was at the time. Should the population continue to rebound, perhaps having a split queue might be viable again, assuming there was a way to dissuade groups (particularly streamer groups) from sync dropping into solo queue to dodge other groups like the way it was before. Group queue population died not because there wasn't enough groups around to play, but there were not enough groups willing to play in group queue, with all the sync drop dodging going on.

covid is what helped the player population. not combining queues. not cauldrons patch. it was purely an influx of players due to covid and steam reaching record numbers of active players.

this game would be absolutely dead right now if not for covid. there was no saving it.

and now there are enough players to support having two separate queues again.

justcallme A S H, on 08 June 2021 - 12:42 AM, said:

As you are already fully aware, I pointed out -> HERE <-- that I am opposed to the Group/Solo Q merger and have been since it came out.

if youre so opposed to it why do you keep disagreeing with me that we need separate queues.

at some point you obviously changed your mind. which means you are not opposed to it anymore.

and if you havent changed your mind then why are you arguing with me about it?

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 12:50 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:46 AM, said:

if youre so opposed to it why do you keep disagreeing with me that we need separate queues.

at some point you obviously changed your mind. which means you are not opposed to it anymore.

and if you havent changed your mind then why are you arguing with me about it?

I have outlined why in that very post, the same post you replied to.

You should probably go and re-read it as it's clear you have not understood it.

[Khobai]

you still havent explained why you keep arguing against separating the queues again if youre so opposed to it.

this is an exact repeat of 2014. we had a mixed queue with a max group size of 4 back then. and groups absolutely had enough of an impact that they had to separate out the queues.

so whats changed now? why is this not like 2014? why is it suddenly okay to have groups in mixed queue? when its never worked before in the past.

Because im not seeing that anything has really changed... all of the same reasons why the queues needed to be separated in 2014 still exist in 2021.

Im seeing all of the same entitlement from elite players that Ive always seen. Matchmaker is just as dysfunctional as ever. Its the same exact situation all over again. Solo players fought so hard in 2014 to get their own queue free of groups and PGI took it away.

I dont buy the player population excuse either. Because population numbers are up. And I will gladly wait longer for matches anyway if it means not having to play against groups.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 01:07 AM.

[Antares102]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:46 AM, said:

covid is what helped the player population. not combining queues. not cauldrons patch. it was purely an influx of players due to covid and steam reaching record numbers of active players.

While I certainly agree that COVID played a significant role in population gains (just like for any other video game).
Cauldron patches combined with quick match finding (<1min) via Soup-Queue brought me and a bunch of friends back.
In fact I left in March 2019 because I played with my best MWO friend as a 2-man we sometimes had to wait for 10 minutes to get a game which was frustrating and not worth it anymore for me.

So just like Vxheous said earlier soup queue was most likely the best thing that PGI could do combined with now listening to the community.

Edited by Antares102, 08 June 2021 - 01:05 AM.

[Leone]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:35 AM, said:

If I played in groups with other good players my W/L and K/D ratios would be better too. All of your stats get enhanced when you play in groups. I choose not to play in groups. And I do not want to play against groups either. Yet I am forced to.

Leone, on 02 June 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

You aren't. We've had Solaris 7 for a while now. If you wanna duel, we've a queue for that. (Well, seven queues actually,) but I hate to break it to you, but if you drop in quickplay you will end up facing twelve mechs all on the same team. In the same 'group' as it were. They've comms, they share radar, they can and will work together.

~Leone.

Okay, just because you don't seem to understand what you're talking about, let me explain something new. Maybe this'll take. Dropping with better players lowers your kill/death rate. Sure, win rate may climb, you know only if'n they're the best cuz otherwise the matchmaker'll set your tier for average and match accordingly. But like I said, kill/death ratio. See, there's only so many mechs to go around. Twelve in fact. Every kill that great player secures? One less for you.

~Leone.

P.S. Also dropping right now with a friend that according to Jarl's has had 19 matches since middle 2018 till now. They're back thanks to cauldron and soup queue! Thanks ya'll!

Edited by Leone, 08 June 2021 - 01:09 AM.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Khobai, on 08 June 2021 - 12:46 AM, said:

covid is what helped the player population. not combining queues. not cauldrons patch. it was purely an influx of players due to covid and steam reaching record numbers of active players.

this game would be absolutely dead right now if not for covid. there was no saving it.

and now there are enough players to support having two separate queues again.



if youre so opposed to it why do you keep disagreeing with me that we need separate queues.

at some point you obviously changed your mind. which means you are not opposed to it anymore.

and if you havent changed your mind then why are you arguing with me about it?

https://www.sarna.ne...yers-in-charge/

[GoatHILL]

They did 8v8 for a month about a year ago.

Me and 2 of the guys I play with kept track out of 400+ games the first team to lose 2 mechs lost all but less than 10 games.

Me personally I was only in 2 games where the team that lost 2 mechs first ended up winning the match.